I'm sure some of you are aware of certain garments used for modesty;
Burka, niqab, hijab etc( similiar garments I haven't named here). Maybe some people who play here are wearing one of these right now.
Some people in my area have started to wear hijabs. These are common in some areas going by pictures.
How would you feel about having these available on an avatar site?. So far no where I've played seems to offer any of these as options.

Moral objections aside, dressing up your avatar char in a burka or niqab would kind take away much of the dress up part of having an avatar char since everything would be covered up.
Though I suppose most people who put it on their avatar char wouldn't have the same beliefs as real life people wearing them most of the time/in public.

I strongly dislike the burka and niqab IRL. They are a security risk, limiting personal freedom and a health hazard ( rickets/ lack of vitamin D).
Then I started thinking, but what if an avatar game had them?.
Avatar chars don't have issues with security, health or movement or vision that real people do.
Hmmmm..Then it goes down to symbolism. The niqab/burka as hate symbols and symbols of oppression. The downright ugly part that people of a certain gender are forced with violence to wear them in some places.
Not terribly fond of the hijab either, but far less objectionable then the other two.

-Would you be morally opposed to having these garments available for avatar chars to wear?.
- Would you be indifferent if these garments were available on an avatar game?.
- Would you actually like if you could dress your avatar char more modestly with these garments?.

Creating hijab/burka/etc items would not be a good idea. I don't know if it would be viewed as for or against or simply tolerant of such beliefs, but whatever way it is intended and received, it's just too political. If anyone wants face covering items, they should be able to find some, and if they want to make some, they totally can, but they should make sure not to make them look like real life, religious attire.

Not in this life time or the next would I allow such a vile item to be created on this web site. Period.

Now I'm interested. Why is it so vile?

Because of what it symbolises I expect.

So hard to answer these questions.

I would have to say that yes, I would like to see more cultural items, but no I wouldn't like to see these (a hijab being the exception). I've always taught myself from a really young age to be accepting of others and their cultures because I disapproved of the arrogance of the people I grew up around. I live in a very racist family and I've spent nearly 20 years trying to break them down and to be more accepting of others. How can I hate someone else because they're different, when I'm different from what my family thinks is normal? Its not something that I've taken lightly.

So when I say yes, I do want these items, I would like them because I would like to be able to portray a culture in a way that I've not been able to do before, even if it is a taboo subject. And then no, I wouldn't like these items, because I don't believe in oppression or people believing that they're better than someone else for any reason.

Its kind of a catch-22 for me I guess.

A burka I would not agree with.

It's a symbol of oppression and misogyny.
Recently in more liberal areas, it has become acceptable to not wear these items, and I think it should stay that way.

Now, maybe some head scarves would be okay, since those do seem to be more popular.

Another reason I would be okay if we had hijabs is that we already have something similar with the hoods that Rando is wearing anyways.

Burqas and niqabs are controversial enough to be kept away from an avatar game, whatever you believe about them, but not the hijab (the head covering). I regularly see people wearing the latter in real life. At best, I think they're rather pretty in a quiet way, at worst they remind me of Catholic nuns' veils. Either way, it's hard to be offended by a head covering that, in this part of the world, must be a choice with some personal conviction behind it, especially considering the (and I'm not accusing anybody, but let's just come out and say the word) Islamophobia that isn't going away any time soon.

In any case, we do have plenty of head coverings here (bandanas, headkerchiefs, etc.), not to mention all those face veils. If someone really wanted to approximate a niqab here for whatever reason (e.g., to cosplay Dust), they could, and I guess I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Originally Posted by Some Random Randomness

A burka I would not agree with.

It's a symbol of oppression and misogyny.
Recently in more liberal areas, it has become acceptable to not wear these items, and I think it should stay that way.

Now, maybe some head scarves would be okay, since those do seem to be more popular.

It may be a symbol of those things in the eyes of some who do not fully understand the culture. I'm not saying I fully understand it, but this topic (and some of the responses) reminds me of this video that I watched in cultural anthropology once. The main idea that the film was trying to get across was the fact that we tend to see it as misogyny (Yes, the middle-eastern culture sees women as inferior, but I'm not talking about particularly that) when in fact, these women choose to wear these garments because it is their identity. It is their culture and their livelihood.

Now how does what I said tie into this? These garments are not as vulgar as some make them out to be. This site has some cultural items, but how much variation? Maybe a good few Hispanic items and makeshift Native American/Tribal attire. We also have items like revealing dresses or lingerie, so I'd see no problem in implementing a Burka, niqab, or hijab especially (say due to a poll or something) if it would be in the interests of some.

I agree with PPs. The burka and hijab ARE symbols of oppression, no matter how you spin it. They were put in place by a government that held the belief that women are objects of SIN, nothing else, and that they would "tempt" men if their entire bodies were not covered. I would never support an avatar community putting such items out there.

Lime, just to be clear, the hijab we're referring to (at least according to my quick'n'dirty Google-based research) is the traditional head covering that does not obscure the face. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, though.

A hijab covers the head and neck area leaving the face clear. To me being able to function normally is what separates this from other garments of this type ( at least from what I know about them).
There are other garments that do not cover the face which I haven't mentioned being more cloak like with the face poking out. I'm not familiar enough with them that I could name them all without looking it up.
Hijabs can be quite attractive, I'd wear one IRL.I would not be wearing one because of a religion, being modest or any other reason then it would be a fashion accessory to me to try out.
I'm going to imagine it's like wearing a light version of neck muff I have for skiing or type of hood. Not all the time mind you, I wouldn't like the idea of wearing one constantly. As an outsider, it does look like it'd become irritating to wear regularly. As we are often creatures of habit, I suppose a person could get so acustomed to wearing it, they may feel "naked" without it.

I'll be honest, I don't know enough about Islamic clothing and culture to argue yay or nay. I do have a question raised by the following quote.

Originally Posted by Claudia

They are a security risk, limiting personal freedom and a health hazard ( rickets/ lack of vitamin D).

What are your thoughts on corsets, then?

Corsets are dangerous and should be banned from avatar sites such as Menewsha to discourage their use in real life. I also think we should get rid of the jungle spear item, all the gun items, the various blades and bows, the trident item, the pitchfork item, canes, piercings, lanterns, and any umbrella capable of being opened indoors.

;D

Well then hermes, what do you suggest we have? fluffy bunny's, unicorns, and pink clouds all over the place? Please, shoot me in the face with one of those guns before you go and make the site lower than g-rated. Lol.

But on topic, you say you would never allow a Hijab to be on the site. Well, I'm curious, would you ever allow a habit, coif, and veil on the site like Catholic nun's wear? If so, then what is the difference. Then (hypothetically speaking, as in IF you were) you would be using your personal prejudice against the muslim culture. Which then would make you a biased site admin/moderator/user and also prejudicial making you corrupt, favoring one group over the other. So by saying you would, and I quote "Not in this life time or the next would I allow such a vile item to be created on this web site." you would then also be saying that you would never allow ANY religious items, especially the three pieces that make up a nun's headdress.

Also, there are indeed a few items that cover the face such as the veil type items already available.

Another thing, to call them vile is to bring your personal judgement and prejudice into the mix already, perhaps without knowing fully the meaning behind it. Sure, in many muslim countries such as saudi arabia, it is used as a way to limit women, but if you go by the base and root of it all, it comes directly from the the Qur'an, written many many many years ago.

The Qur'an instructs both Muslim men and women to dress in a modest way. The clearest verse on the requirement of the hijab is "surah 24:30-31, asking women to draw their khimar over their bosoms." which reads as follows:

"And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their khimar over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to ... (Qur'an 24:31)"

In the following verse, Muslim women are asked to draw their jilbab over them (when they go out), as a measure to distinguish themselves from others, so that they are not harassed. Sura 33:59 reads:

"Those who harass believing men and believing women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a grievous sin. O Prophet! Enjoin your wives, your daughters, and the wives of true believers that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad) That is most convenient, that they may be distinguished and not be harassed."

So whether you choose to accept it or not, the hijab is merely a way to keep women looking modest, which in my personal opinion, while going too far to the extreme is needed in some ways. I mean, there is no reason for 15 and 16 year old girls to be walking around in spaghetti strap shirts and tube tops with mini skirts and thongs. Society's morals (once again in my opinion) have gone way down the drain.

One last thing to point out is that by saying the Hijab is vile, disgusting, ect, ect, even though it goes by what the qur'an is saying, you are also (perhaps without knowing it) saying the the bible is wrong.

1 Corinthians 11:4-7 states:

"Any man who prays or prophesies with something on his head disgraces his head, but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled disgraces her head--it is one and the same thing as having her head shaved. For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or to be shaved, she should wear a veil. For a man ought not to have his head veiled, since he is the image and reflection of God; but woman is the reflection of man"

1 Timothy 2:9-10 states:

"I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God."

And finally, 1 Peter 3:2-5 states:

"Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight. For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful."

As one author said

"The Bible's rules about dress cannot be applied directly to today's situation. Attending church in a cloak, tunic, sandals and a turban or veil would cause quite a disruption in most churches! But the general principles of modesty and propriety can be applied. We should dress for public worship in a way that is generally considered appropriate. Standards of dress change over time and are different from church to church, but we should avoid any style of dress that is offensive or sends a message opposing the church community's values."

I would also like to add that while our culture may have evolved to wear it is now, in many nations across the planet, many religions and cultures still practice their ways as they have for hundreds of years, and we should be respectful of that.

Note: I am not saying that I am for making the items as I am neither for nor against it as I accept and embrace the muslim culture for what they are, along with all other religions and cultures of the world, without letting the sins of few taint the ideals of the many. Plain and simple, if you didn't like the item, then you wouldn't have to wear it or even have it in your inventory, but some people may actually want them and I think that as a site administrator you should be respectful of not only the majority, but the wishes of the few as well. So what you put in a couple muslim items? Throw in a few catholic, christian, and jewish items and call it a party!

Anyways, that's my piece, take it or leave it. Also, this is all my personal opinion and I would like it noted that I am not pressing it on anyone, just merely stating it as is my right not only be the laws of this fine nation but as my right as a person to individuality and expression. Goodnight all.

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Originally Posted by Clockwork Lime

I agree with PPs. The burka and hijab ARE symbols of oppression, no matter how you spin it. They were put in place by a government that held the belief that women are objects of SIN, nothing else, and that they would "tempt" men if their entire bodies were not covered. I would never support an avatar community putting such items out there.

Just wanted to point out one more thing that this statement is false as you talk of governments putting these into place when they are actually centuries old religious and cultural habits, not set in place by governments as a way to oppress women. Please before you try to argue about something, know some facts.

lol I think Hermes was slightly trolling. I don't know for sure, but I found it to be too humorous to be taken seriously as a statement.

In any case, there already is some sort of Jewish set and the new CI set KINDA looks Catholic. :x
I don't see Juru's, or anyone else's, statement's as prejudice at all. I just believe that people get the wrong impression of the garments; seeing them as oppressing when in fact it is merely a part of their identity as stated before. ^^;

But by calling the items Vile or oppressive, they are taking their personal beliefs (while perhaps misguided or mislead) and putting them into their judgment as a site admin, which should not happen. I understand how it can sometimes be hard to refrain as I have had places of power on many other sites, including gaia, but I also think that it is pertinent that they mods/admin stay unbiased in their work as it effects the site as whole.

Once again, this is my personal opinion.

I'd like to thank you for the PM but you do not have to worry about me being offended or think that I might believe you are telling me or anyone else how to do my job or run the web site. Current staff has been running it since 2007 and I am also an adult so a differing opinion is not going to make me cry or think any less of anyone.

You are correct in that it is my personal belief that burkas (and perhaps I should have specified this when I initially commented) are in line with Rando's. They are misogynistic, demeaning, and IMO erase a woman and her identity completely, making her invisible, thus they are vile. Would I stop someone who was strong in their faith and their belief from wearing one? Probably not.

Now... in terms of the web site itself. If we were to consider such a controversial item and creating it, we as administrators have to take in to account the balance of the community at large. I am also not the only admin. There are four of us. We don't let any one individual (for the most part...it is Inso's site. he can do what he wants), decide what is best for all users. We discuss, sometimes over discuss to ensure that the community and its needs are met. Granted, there are people who are still unhappy with our decisions but we do take the time to explore every avenue possible and its potential outcome before moving forward.

Also, Hermes, your reply about the guns, knives, etc may or may not have been tongue in cheek, but we have a member or two who do truly believe that we should not have those items because they do not believe in violence but we have them because the overall community really doesn't care. Desensitized to violence maybe? I dunno, but that's a discussion for somewhere else.

And we can only have unicorns if they are robot unicorns with crappy 80's theme songs.

As for burka's you could have them as part of a military themed thing considering they were adopted by Russian cavalry, and worn as part of the Russian military uniform from the middle of the 18th century until the 1850s, during the Caucasus War. Vasily Chapayev, who was a red army commander during the russian civil war wore a burka as a part of his military uniform.

I was referring to more recently, when the Taliban re-instated the practice of wearing "modest" clothing and enforced the law with violence and threats of death. If that's not oppressive and misogynistic, I don't know what is. But I'll bow out, as it seems most misunderstood my point. =/

Then you were half correct. The Taliban as a political movement was overthrown in 2001. Though the Taliban reemerged in 2004, they came out as an insurgency, which is a military movement, not longer political or governmental.

To answer the question about corsets.
I don't have any issues with corsets on avatar games. They don't carry the same symbolic hatred/oppression to me as Islamic garments do. I doubt putting a corset on an avatar char will really influence a person to wear one IRL unless they already wanted to do so.
Just as people might give their avatar char a cigarette without ever intending to smoke IRL.
I think if you are swayed that easily to imitate your avatar char, you might have other issues to contend with.

As for RL, wearing corsets is an individual choice. They do not carry the same security risk as wearing a niqab or burka does. Yes they have the potential for health risks, however I feel self harm can be an individual choice.
Maybe if there were places where people were forced with violence to wear corsets I will feel differently. Everyone who wears a corset does so by their own free will and choices.
Which is one of the main issues that makes me hestitant about tolerating wearing of various Islamic garments.

On the topic of the Islamic garb: I'd have to sit with Seiki on the catch-22 going on. I can really see both sides of the argument, given in the past it has been an instrument of oppression but there are plenty of women who choose to wear them as a part of cultural identity. Something like this is a fairly large decision for an avatar site given its political qualities. I think it would be best left to gather an opinion and the interest of the site on the whole regarding things like this.

In regards to corsets, not every corset presents a health risk. They are certainly not all intended towards the tightlacing most are associating with them. I myself own a handful, some which are meant only to look nice and be snug and one or two that are of a real structured quality that would take my waist in if I were to wear them on any regular basis. It's all really a matter of personal choice and definitely some researching.

I don't want to go head deep into this, but I LOVE corsets, please don't take them away. T.T