This depends on which end of the stick you're on. An outside opinion would find this amusing. I find this amusing. But I would have been offended if I was informed through this method that the Administrator of a site did not want to speak to me.

True... but it does sound like he was messaging him a lot... maybe he was just a little overwhelmed by him constantly messaging him and reacted without thinking so he could think clearly?

Menewsha does have fun little quirks here and there. Its an amusing bit of personality that I can appreciate. But you can't compare the little jokes between the staff and the users with this situation. This wasn't a joke. The redirect was used as an administrative tool to prevent someone from speaking to another person. This was an unprofessional response and use of power and I can understand why the user on the receiving end would be displeased.

True... but to be honest I've seen inso do that redirect on HIS profile quite a few times... mostly he does that when he's tired of getting comments. It would be just the same as me disabling my profile because of someone bugging me.

So choosing to redirect to a blank or different page would have made no difference. The better option would have been to have done as all other users on this site are expected to do: Confront the person and ask the person to leave one alone, then take further action if necessary as necessary from there.

It would be annoying true... but less offensive than directing off-site, thus being less of an issue. Though I see your point about it being annoying... would you prefer he redirect you to a message?

What should Azazel apologize for? If Insomniac is at fault, which I believe he is to a certain degree in the situation regarding the redirect, then why would it be better for Azazel to simply let go? If he has been wronged, he has every right to protest and voice his opinion.

Nothing major... but it's mostly just that he put that he was an AA in the wrong area then made a big deal about it instead of bringing it up rationally.

And I repeat. You have to see the difference between a situation were quirky staff jokes are acceptable and a situation where professionalism is expected and appreciated. I believe that this particular situation called for professionalism over quirky staff jokes. And considering the outcome, I believe I am correct.

True the outcome does seem to have come out badly... and yeah staff have their times of needing to be more professional... but he honestly doesn't seem to get to talk much since he works and then comes onto mene and has to work even more... constantly fixing stuff

What I don't understand is why many users don't see it as Insomniac's right (and by extension, the right of any staff member) to ignore someone they find troublesome.

There have been a few times where someone has made themselves extremely unwelcome to me. In my position as a staff member, I know quite well that whatever I do or say can be used against me or the staff in general to illustrate some negative point that someone feeling sour wants to make. In general, I try to ignore them and respond only to PMs or profile comments or thread posts that clearly express the issue they're having (if they're having one). In the instances where someone I'm trying to ignore has not been clear, I try to let another staff member handle it, if I can, so we don't have to interact. This, in fact, is part of staff guidelines to prevent staff/user fighting.

Insomniac made it perfectly clear that he did not want to interact with Azazel, just as he made it perfectly clear with other users who have done similar things to irritate him. Most of these other users have been able to let it go, or at most, gripe about it amongst their friends for awhile before they were able to move on.

Azazel did not let it go. He was very persistent to the point of pissing Insomniac off. Rather than do something drastic or mean-spirited, Insomniac's response was to deny Azazel the opportunity to annoy him further, and did so in a light-hearted way that should have had any reasonable user laugh and go, "Okay then. Point taken. I'm badgering Insomniac." with perhaps an added, "What a jerk. :B" or "He could have at least chosen a funny internet meme!" or whatever.

And yet there are users in here telling Insomniac to apologize? For what? Using his powers to prevent someone from annoying him? If he'd just used the "Block" feature, it'd be the same result, only without Azazel knowing he was being ignored (which, if I'm to be correctly informed, was the entire reason Azazel was so intent on badgering Insomniac until Insomniac took the actions he did - so apparently "Insomniac should ignore Azazel if he's annoying him" was exactly what Insomniac did and exactly what Azazel couldn't accept). If the issue is him redirecting someone, why are you upset? He redirected them to something entirely inoffensive and not harmful.

I don't really know what the "issue" is here. Why are you upset, specifically? Keeping in mind:

- Insomniac has already been ignoring Azazel and simply ignoring him did nothing.
- The staff has the right to ignore a user and redirect any interactions with them to other staff members if they are either busy, not able to answer the question, or have problems with the user.
- The redirect itself was not harmful.
- All this really is an issue about is that Azazel could not keep this between himself and Insomniac, as it should have been.

I wasn't going to comment, because.....Azazel is my friend. But in this case....I'm sorry but....I have to agree with CK. I also think she put it quite nicely. These very public battles on mene are becoming ever so much more popular as of late....and its....sad? is that the word I'm looking for? Certainly it doesn't look good for mene when new users come across threads where old users are fighting to the death with the higher ups.

Originally Posted by The Wandering Poet

True... but to be honest I've seen inso do that redirect on HIS profile quite a few times... mostly he does that when he's tired of getting comments. It would be just the same as me disabling my profile because of someone bugging me.

I believe it would have been more respectful and less objectionable had he used a feature already implemented on the site and available to other users.

Originally Posted by The Wandering Poet

It would be annoying true... but less offensive than directing off-site, thus being less of an issue. Though I see your point about it being annoying... would you prefer he redirect you to a message?

No. The place to which the redirect went doesn't matter to me. I believe that the redirect, because it was a redirect, was a poor response to Azazel being an annoyance.

Originally Posted by The Wandering Poet

Nothing major... but it's mostly just that he put that he was an AA in the wrong area then made a big deal about it instead of bringing it up rationally.

This is not the issue that I am discussing. I agree that he deserved the infraction for staff impersonation.

Originally Posted by The Wandering Poet

True the outcome does seem to have come out badly... and yeah staff have their times of needing to be more professional... but he honestly doesn't seem to get to talk much since he works and then comes onto mene and has to work even more... constantly fixing stuff

I don't understand how this is relevant to the situation at hand.

Originally Posted by CK

What I don't understand is why many users don't see it as Insomniac's right (and by extension, the right of any staff member) to ignore someone they find troublesome.

Insomniac and any other member of the staff can choose to ignore whomever they please unless their, and specifically their, service is required regarding a matter involving an issue. We're all human beings here and as human beings I don't expect all of us to get along. Because we're not all going to get along. I acknowledge and I respect that.

Originally Posted by CK

Azazel did not let it go. He was very persistent to the point of pissing Insomniac off. Rather than do something drastic or mean-spirited, Insomniac's response was to deny Azazel the opportunity to annoy him further, and did so in a light-hearted way that should have had any reasonable user laugh and go, "Okay then. Point taken. I'm badgering Insomniac." with perhaps an added, "What a jerk. :B" or "He could have at least chosen a funny internet meme!" or whatever.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. I am under the assumption that Insomniac did not take any other step to stop Azazel from contacting him for unnecessary reasons other than ignoring him.

If this was the case, I don't believe than anything drastic or mean-spirited was any more necessary than something quirky or cute. If the cold shoulder was ineffective, a simple "I don't want to talk to you unless I need to. Leave me alone." would have sufficed. Am I incorrect to believe that this is what you would have expected any other user on this site to have done?

Perhaps he intended to be amusing with this. But the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I can see how a person might see this as amusing, but I can also see how another person could see this as petty and spiteful. I'm simply keeping the latter in consideration.

Originally Posted by CK

And yet there are users in here telling Insomniac to apologize? For what? Using his powers to prevent someone from annoying him?

I'm going to assume that this was directed towards me.

I did not state nor imply that Insomniac should apologize. I simply don't believe that Azazel should be expected to apologize by being offended by the redirect.

Originally Posted by CK

If he'd just used the "Block" feature, it'd be the same result, only without Azazel knowing he was being ignored (which, if I'm to be correctly informed, was the entire reason Azazel was so intent on badgering Insomniac until Insomniac took the actions he did - so apparently "Insomniac should ignore Azazel if he's annoying him" was exactly what Insomniac did and exactly what Azazel couldn't accept). If the issue is him redirecting someone, why are you upset? He redirected them to something entirely inoffensive and not harmful.

Overall I believe that this unnecessary drama would not have arose if Insomniac had expressed his desire to avoid unnecessary contact with Azazel in a better way. Namely, a sentence or two simply asking Azazel to kindly shut up and leave him alone. When someone is frustrated that you are not responding to them, they're going to get angry if you do something quirky and cute to force you to see that they don't want to talk to you. And that's exactly what happened.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Cora Lorington

These very public battles on mene are becoming ever so much more popular as of late.

I have no intention of fighting anyone to the death. Just because I'm expressing a different opinion and am willing to argue it out doesn't mean that I am trying to fight anyone to the death. It doesn't even mean that i have a particular side on this issue. I just want to bring up certain points to both sides that they may not have noticed or considered before, and to keep in mind to prevent future problems.

That's an aspect of Feedback as well. Its not all happy praise and cute suggestions.

Originally Posted by CK

[snip]

I found the use of the redirect questionable, if it really was that much of a problem, couldn't Inso have simply said, "Hi, I'm a busy man, and I don't really have time to chat with you about little things" Or "I'm busy please leave me alone." Or even, "I don't really like you, and I don't have to/want to reply to you, so, can you please stop contacting me over trivial matters?"

My issue is mostly the redirect though, while it was not harmful, it was still kindof childish, and I don't think that should have been the response. I've always been told if you don't like someone, and ignoring them doesn't work, just ask them to leave you alone. And if they still won't leave you alone, punch them in the face.

I don't think anyone should apologize though, I think it's just a mistake, on both ends.

Originally Posted by Dystopia

Overall I believe that this unnecessary drama would not have arose if Insomniac had expressed his desire to avoid unnecessary contact with Azazel in a better way. Namely, a sentence or two simply asking Azazel to kindly shut up and leave him alone. When someone is frustrated that you are not responding to them, they're going to get angry if you do something quirky and cute to force you to see that they don't want to talk to you. And that's exactly what happened.

This. :3

Don't mistake me though for thinking Azazel's response was appropriate, it really was not, however, I do understand why he reacted that way, and I do think it could have been prevented via a few words, rather than a redirect, on Insomniac's (or even another staff member) part...because it obviously wasn't clear enough to Azazel to get him to stop.

Originally Posted by Dystopia

I believe it would have been more respectful and less objectionable had he used a feature already implemented on the site and available to other users.

Dystopia, you'll find that none of the AA's nor myself use the block feature, or if they are they shouldn't be. What if even the most annoying of users has a serious issue and they need to contact one of us? We simply cannot take the chance of using the block feature. Period.

Originally Posted by Dystopia

Please correct me if I'm wrong. I am under the assumption that Insomniac did not take any other step to stop Azazel from contacting him for unnecessary reasons other than ignoring him.

I deleted a ton of visitor messages and ignored his PM's. One of his messages asked why I was ignoring him, and insinuated that if he was persistent I'd eventually respond. Deleting visitor messages really should speak for itself shouldn't it?

Originally Posted by Insomniac

Dystopia, you'll find that none of the AA's nor myself use the block feature, or if they are they shouldn't be. What if even the most annoying of users has a serious issue and they need to contact one of us? We simply cannot take the chance of using the block feature. Period.

I deleted a ton of visitor messages and ignored his PM's. One of his messages asked why I was ignoring him, and insinuated that if he was persistent I'd eventually respond. Deleting visitor messages really should speak for itself shouldn't it?

Also, the "block" or "ignorelist" feature doesn't prevent them from sending you a message, it'll just show the message in your inbox list as red, and ask you if you want it displayed, and then you click to read it. XDD;;
Unless it's different for admin/staff. =O

I don't really like the ignore list feature here, because it doesn't actually prevent people you don't like from contacting you, or you from seeing their posts (all you have to do to disable it is click their post, which will still show, but the text and avatar will remain hidden until you click it, and then poof, you can see it again.

It should suggest that, but that doesn't mean it does, at least not to everyone. Which is unfortunate. :(

Originally Posted by Dystopia

o.o The topic is fairly recent and there has been no indication of the issue being resolved. Has it been resolved? Forgive me if I have come to kick a dead horse.

I think I detected a bit of sarcasm there. :sweat:

I just meant that since Josiah's left Mene again, I don't see why anyone's locked the thread, and why anyone bothers to tell him if he's at fault or not.

I do think that Josiah should have handled it better and not bugged Inso as much as he did, but that can't be helped now.

I also think that Inso probably should've just told Josiah to fuck off (not in those words, of course) if he was really pissing him off that much. If he'd redirected Josiah to a different website, it probably wouldn't have come off more childish than it looks.

I don't know, but that's just me.

Originally Posted by Abomination.

I just meant that since Josiah's left Mene again, I don't see why anyone's locked the thread, and why anyone bothers to tell him if he's at fault or not.

That way it'll be here when he comes back again. :roll:

I don't understand why this matter is still being discussed, what's done is done.

As CK said, Insomniac ignored Az to his full capacity. It makes sense that staff not use the ignore feature, even if you can still view when that person is talking to you. You can only ignore someone for so long before they really start to piss you off, and Az did post quite frequently on Inso's wall. I personally would take the deletion of visitor messages as a hint to pretty much fuck off and leave me alone, but Az didn't.

Sure, the redirection to an avatar site might be childish, but what so what? Past situations already show that Inso and Az didn't get along, so I don't understand why Az even bothered talking to Inso, but he did. Either way, it's over and I don't see why anyone needs to apologize. The only thing I'm seeing is that some people need to suck it up and realize that not everyone will bend over backwards to talk to them over *trivial* things.

No, I would not expect or require a user to directly tell any other user to, "Leave me alone." if their chosen method of dealing with an issue is to attempt to ignore it.

You may not have seen user-to-user interactions, but I have seen it all from behind the scenes. Repeatedly. Some users cannot let things die. They abuse the report feature to report just about any post the user they don't like makes. They fill their profile with visitor messages. They send PM after PM, persistently pursuing contact with the person even when the person has made it crystal clear that they did not want to talk to them.

Even saying, "Please do not talk to me." does not tend to stop the harassment. Even staff telling them to stop does not stop the harassment. And thus, the staff has to make decisions of the next step to take in those cases.

Insomniac has no 'higher up' to turn to. So he took his own action.

I'm beginning to think that people playing Devil's Advocate should perhaps look at it from the other perspective too. You didn't read the messages Azazel posted. I've seen some of them before they were deleted and they would have made me extremely uncomfortable to be left on my profile. I honestly think that Insomniac's response was far kinder than he deserved.

Originally Posted by CK

I'm beginning to think that people playing Devil's Advocate should perhaps look at it from the other perspective too. You didn't read the messages Azazel posted. I've seen some of them before they were deleted and they would have made me extremely uncomfortable to be left on my profile. I honestly think that Insomniac's response was far kinder than he deserved.

This.

I also saw some of the posts, and one specifically was one saying that Inso had won, that Az was leaving for good. I mean...WHY post something like that? He was trying, in some form, I believe to get attention from Inso and provoke him to respond. I mean, I barely know Az, and I'm sure he has his fair share of problems IRL, but what he was doing wasn't necessary. /:

Honestly these fights disgust me... because people are going directly to Inso... who works a LOT... and constantly bug him instead of say sending jelly, juru, yan, or ck a pm with the issue to address it to Inso IF needed. That's what I do, because if an AA can fix it, I don't need to bug inso, if only inso can fix it, THEY can bug him.

It was also stated they don't get along... why go to inso if they don't get along? he's an 07 member who probably knows all the AAs... at least one of them would likely get along with him better and be a more reasonable person to approach. And above that, making a site feedback of the problem would be another way to get staff to notice as I know inso has said he reads almost every post in this forum.

Originally Posted by CK

No, I would not expect or require a user to directly tell any other user to, "Leave me alone." if their chosen method of dealing with an issue is to attempt to ignore it.

Even saying, "Please do not talk to me." does not tend to stop the harassment. Even staff telling them to stop does not stop the harassment. And thus, the staff has to make decisions of the next step to take in those cases.

Insomniac has no 'higher up' to turn to. So he took his own action.

That can be true sometimes, but he didn't even TRY it. :( Inso is a public face of the staff of menewsha, as are all the AAs, Mods, and Artists, what they do on site reflects on the site (good or bad) depending on the choices they make, and I don't think this was the world's best choice of action, but I can also partially understand it. He's "only human" and was trying to make a "light joke" but also a serious "Stop that you're 'badgering' me." But there is more than one way it can be interpreted, including "I'm being childish by forcefully redirecting you to this other site with this annoying song, because I can because I'm an admin, NEENER NEENER."

Perhaps menewsha should look at harassment as something that is a "infractable" offense? Even if foul things aren't being said, but if a user persistently harasses someone...?
I know Menewsha doesn't really do things like that now, but just a thought, that maybe it's time to start cracking the whip about mean users being mean...Not everyone is going to act like mature adults, it's an inevitability.

I'm beginning to think that people playing Devil's Advocate should perhaps look at it from the other perspective too. You didn't read the messages Azazel posted. I've seen some of them before they were deleted and they would have made me extremely uncomfortable to be left on my profile. I honestly think that Insomniac's response was far kinder than he deserved.

I'm not playing Devil's Advocate, I genuinely think that using a redirect was not the best way to handle it, and no one provided information even suggesting why it was, until now...But now I think that maybe the system as a whole needs to be looked at, to protect the users and the staff better from harassment or any kind of bullying, because that's what this is.

And while that's TRUE that I didn't see ANY of what went on, that's also exactly my point...It looks childish that Inso resorted to that...and since Menewsha is a business that people can invest in, childish administration is something that can make someone who hasn't joined yet, wary of joining and spending money on the site.
I mean, think of all the people Azazel, or anyone who's seen this thread, told that the ADMIN of a site used a redirect on him.

I love the shit out of menewsha, why else would I stay here after everything I've been through with this site? The ups AND downs? I want to stay here through the end, or I want to see it flourish and go on FOREVER. >:C

---

In the end, it's not about the specific incident, it's about how the actions of the staff reflect on menewsha as a whole, and how perhaps there are other, better ways to deal with things that should/could be looked into for the future.

---
That said, I also do what Poet does, and I agree that that's usually the best course of action.
But it's not what happened, and nothing is going to change what happened, and I think what I'm trying to express, is that, next time when this comes up (because it will, especially if menewsha continues to grow, there will be more users in the future that will do this to Inso or another staff member), exhaust everything first, before resorting to "badger badger badger badger badger..."

Originally Posted by monstahh`

That can be true sometimes, but he didn't even TRY it. :( Inso is a public face of the staff of menewsha, as are all the AAs, Mods, and Artists, what they do on site reflects on the site (good or bad) depending on the choices they make, and I don't think this was the world's best choice of action, but I can also partially understand it. He's "only human" and was trying to make a "light joke" but also a serious "Stop that you're 'badgering' me." But there is more than one way it can be interpreted, including "I'm being childish by forcefully redirecting you to this other site with this annoying song, because I can because I'm an admin, NEENER NEENER."

Those words...kind of bother me. Who are we to say that Inso never said to stop bothering him? He may have, or he may have not, we don't know that, so it's wrong to assume, and it's little things like that that make this situation look worse than it is.
It's not OUR place as members of the site to state what we don't know. When we do, things get jumbled about and the "facts" that are told to others about a situation also get jumbled, which can turn into a huge negative for the site.

I understand, as I previously stated, that the redirection was most likely not the best course of action to be taken, but at the same time...what else could have been done? Was he just supposed to continuously ignore someone who they felt was pestering them? I mean, we all know how old that can get, which is why the ignore option is such a nice feature, but the staff aren't supposed to use it. Inso would be a bit of a hypocrite to have blocked Az like any of us had done, yeah?

All I'm ultimately saying is that Az really must have pushed Inso over the edge in terms of annoyance so he took the matter into his own hands. For all we know, Az may have been lurking non-stop on his page and I'm sure Inso can see who visits it and how often, so in a way, he may have felt..stalked?

On the other hand however, I fully agree with your post~ xDD /not meaning to be negative

However, isn't harassment already covered in the rules though? From what it states in the General Rules:

Flaming is the deliberate insulting of others by posting offensive or inflammatory messages targeting a user or group of users. This includes sending other users abusive Private Messages, post stalking users to bring up arguments in the forums, and directing rude comments to other users no matter what the cause of it may be.

Everyone who takes part in something like this will be punished. Warnings will be issued and if severe enough, users will be banned. This is at staff discretion.

It just depends on the severity of the situation I suppose. Personally, I think slapping a nice infraction for harassment would have suited this best (rather than the redirection), if the staff agreed upon it or whatever. Then again, there may have still been a thread made about it and this debate would still be being discussed..

This includes the sending of chain letters and unsolicited thread advertisements. These activities are forbidden and anyone found to be doing them will receive a spamming infraction.

Also found in General Rules, about abusing the private messages or profile comments. An infraction would have been best in my eyes, but what's done is done.

Originally Posted by .Simplicity.

Those words...kind of bother me. Who are we to say that Inso never said to stop bothering him? He may have, or he may have not, we don't know that, so it's wrong to assume, and it's little things like that that make this situation look worse than it is.
It's not OUR place as members of the site to state what we don't know. When we do, things get jumbled about and the "facts" that are told to others about a situation also get jumbled, which can turn into a huge negative for the site.

I understand, as I previously stated, that the redirection was most likely not the best course of action to be taken, but at the same time...what else could have been done? Was he just supposed to continuously ignore someone who they felt was pestering them? I mean, we all know how old that can get, which is why the ignore option is such a nice feature, but the staff aren't supposed to use it. Inso would be a bit of a hypocrite to have blocked Az like any of us had done, yeah?

All I'm ultimately saying is that Az really must have pushed Inso over the edge in terms of annoyance so he took the matter into his own hands. For all we know, Az may have been lurking non-stop on his page and I'm sure Inso can see who visits it and how often, so in a way, he may have felt..stalked?

That is all true. xD But I was just trying to express that I think there are other things he could have done before using his administrative powers to redirect Azazel to somewhere else. XD;;

On the other hand however, I fully agree with your post~ xDD /not meaning to be negative

However, isn't harassment already covered in the rules though? From what it states in the General Rules:

It just depends on the severity of the situation I suppose. Personally, I think slapping a nice infraction for harassment would have suited this best (rather than the redirection), if the staff agreed upon it or whatever. Then again, there may have still been a thread made about it and this debate would still be being discussed..

Also found in General Rules, about abusing the private messages or profile comments. An infraction would have been best in my eyes, but what's done is done.

Sortof, the usual attitude though is that you should just ignore any user you don't like...But my point is that doesn't always work, as shown by this whole thing. XDD;;
I mean, it looks like Inso felt like it wasn't covered under the rules, so he resorted to something outside of the rules. (Just a thought, perhaps that's not what he was thinking. xD)

You know? So, maybe it's time to explicitly state something like "Don't harass people - if you persist in such behavior, you will get a warning!"
Now, I know that won't stop everyone, but it would probably discourage quite a few.

Will Everyone Just Stop! Whats done is done! The Issue has been talked about to Death! A user had an issue, an admin dealt with it how he thought would be best, user left, end of story! Will someone please lock this thread already?

Originally Posted by monstahh`

[omitted] redirect [a user who is dropping too many comments/PMs etc] to somewhere else. XD;;

Just a suggestion -
What about in the future redirecting an annoying user to the terms of service?
or a page set up specifically to inform the user to cease/tone down the bombardment

Originally Posted by Nivvy

Just a suggestion -
What about in the future redirecting an annoying user to the terms of service?
or a page set up specifically to inform the user to cease/tone down the bombardment

I could see that as a reasonable middle-ground, it's basically the same as a mod going, "hey stop that or you're going to get in trouble." It's also staying on-site.

XDD

Originally Posted by The Wandering Poet

Honestly these fights disgust me... because people are going directly to Inso... who works a LOT... and constantly bug him instead of say sending jelly, juru, yan, or ck a pm with the issue to address it to Inso IF needed. That's what I do, because if an AA can fix it, I don't need to bug inso, if only inso can fix it, THEY can bug him.

It was also stated they don't get along... why go to inso if they don't get along? he's an 07 member who probably knows all the AAs... at least one of them would likely get along with him better and be a more reasonable person to approach. And above that, making a site feedback of the problem would be another way to get staff to notice as I know inso has said he reads almost every post in this forum.

I actually suggested that Az bring it up with inso or an AA, but we both agreed Inso was orobably the best person to address the problem to. I do think only inso could have fixed the bug and it was quite a nasty one. One that could honestly have been said to need attention fairly quickly. I do not think Az perhaps needed to act in the manner that he did, despite the fact that I consider him to be a friend.

Although had it been me, (Az never really told me the whole way it worked so he needed to be the one to go to staff), I probably would have gone to whoever was online first, which may have even been inso.

Originally Posted by Nivvy

Just a suggestion -
What about in the future redirecting an annoying user to the terms of service?
or a page set up specifically to inform the user to cease/tone down the bombardment

Yeah, I think that's a good idea - a page where it'll tell the user to do something. . . I don't know, I just thought it was a good idea, lol. xD