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serafim_azriel 02-23-2009 05:35 AM

On the spay/neuter topic, I have gotten annoyed with people in my area, as they're mostly hicks around here and truly believe that their male dog will feel less of a 'man' if neutered, which, really, is absurd because (aside from mating) dogs don't really have a sexual identity.
Though I must say this about the whole Spay and neuter thing:
I hope that there are people who do not spay and neuter their pets for one reason, because if EVERYONE did, then dogs would eventually go extinct. Of course, I think breeders should have a license and be regularly checked up on.
(So should people who have tons of kids, IMO. The world's overpopulated in general.)

Seph Lonehart 02-23-2009 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderwice (Post 1764086048)
The spay/neuter issue is a huge problem, no one can argue with that. People who don't get their pets fixed are normally uneducated, poor or ignorant people or any mix of those. There are free/low cost programs all over the US that are doing their best to help the problem.
True most mutts are a result of people's shear ignorance, but that's not true all the time. There is just no room for them and so...most are killed. A horrible solution to a horrible situation.

The best way to stop the over breeding is to educate people in your area. I do what I can, though I know I could do more if I had the time or resources, and i have made a small impact. But for each person that you inform, even if they only inform one person, it will travel and expand.
-Though I'm getting a bit off topic ><-

Sadly a lot of those uneducated people are willfully ignorant. The willfully ignorant are the saddest kind. They have the chance to change it but do nothing about it.

I have a pet Kitten named CiCi right now. She's not fixed yet but I'm not letting her outside or around any cats who could do anything with her. (I'm saving up right now she needs her shots too. [she is a saved stray kitty]{She's not in heat yet}) I also do NOT let her outside. I don't like the idea of outdoor cats in general but that is a different issue entirely that doesn't effect why I'm not letting Cecilia outside.

Indeed it is a horrible solution to a horrible situation. But not enough people give and at least they are taken care of and given a chance to be rescued. It's not a good system right now but it could be a lot worse.

Not enough people are willing to look at these shelters for their potential pet either. That is upsetting to me personally when people are so full of themselves they won't even consider saving a life before having a new one forced into existence. (On a side note. It breaks my heart when I see a dead dog or cat [or really a dead anything] on the side of the road.)

Quote:

On the spay/neuter topic, I have gotten annoyed with people in my area, as they're mostly hicks around here and truly believe that their male dog will feel less of a 'man' if neutered, which, really, is absurd because (aside from mating) dogs don't really have a sexual identity.
Though I must say this about the whole Spay and neuter thing:
I hope that there are people who do not spay and neuter their pets for one reason, because if EVERYONE did, then dogs would eventually go extinct. Of course, I think breeders should have a license and be regularly checked up on.
(So should people who have tons of kids, IMO. The world's overpopulated in general.)
I'm not justifying in anyway, but animals who are fixed do in fact behave differently. This is because their hormone levels drop off. And if you know enough about hormones you know they control a lot of what animals (and too often humans) do.

I'd like to say again I am not justifying their view on it in anyway.

Wonderwice 02-23-2009 05:54 AM

Getting a male dog neuter will change it's temperament but for the most part, of course nothing is 100%, it stops them from being overly territorial, wondering to find a mate and become very aggressive is a female in hear is within a mile of them. It also takes away the risk of some caners when a dog is fixed. It improves their health overall and it will help them to live longer, happier lives.

I have a kitten I took in to foster, him and two siblings. A box of nine kittens were left outside my job over the summer. Everyone pitched in to help out. They poor things were between 3-5 days old, many had umbilical cords still. I sadly lost two of the kittens as well as I think it was three other kittens we lost, it might have been two, and it kills me to think who ripped them from their mothers -it was two litters-. Granted they left them at a place where they would be given the best care, they still abandon them and gave them no chance at life.
And from all that I was able to keep the kitten that survived, my dog grew attached to him ^.^ as the cat to the dog too, I found out he is decrypted, witch is his balls never dropped. He can't reproduce but if I don't get him fix he WILL have cancer at a very early time. -I'm doing it next month with a low cost program-

And to think everyone, the mothers, the kittens and us could have all be saved the suffering and grief if someone would have just had their cat fixed.

My older cat was spayed when I found her as a stray. A program came in, took her, spayed her and put her back. It's becoming a more common place thing for cats and dogs all over, a stray will get picked up and fix and put back to live out it's life.
-Sorry...I'm still ranting and going off topic >< I'll get back into topic now-

Seph Lonehart 02-23-2009 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderwice (Post 1764086132)
Getting a male dog neuter will change it's temperament but for the most part, of course nothing is 100%, it stops them from being overly territorial, wondering to find a mate and become very aggressive is a female in hear is within a mile of them. It also takes away the risk of some caners when a dog is fixed. It improves their health overall and it will help them to live longer, happier lives.

I have a kitten I took in to foster, him and two siblings. A box of nine kittens were left outside my job over the summer. Everyone pitched in to help out. They poor things were between 3-5 days old, many had umbilical cords still. I sadly lost two of the kittens as well as I think it was three other kittens we lost, it might have been two, and it kills me to think who ripped them from their mothers -it was two litters-. Granted they left them at a place where they would be given the best care, they still abandon them and gave them no chance at life.
And from all that I was able to keep the kitten that survived, my dog grew attached to him ^.^ as the cat to the dog too, I found out he is decrypted, witch is his balls never dropped. He can't reproduce but if I don't get him fix he WILL have cancer at a very early time. -I'm doing it next month with a low cost program-

And to think everyone, the mothers, the kittens and us could have all be saved the suffering and grief if someone would have just had their cat fixed.

My older cat was spayed when I found her as a stray. A program came in, took her, spayed her and put her back. It's becoming a more common place thing for cats and dogs all over, a stray will get picked up and fix and put back to live out it's life.
-Sorry...I'm still ranting and going off topic >< I'll get back into topic now-

Only one thing to add to this from me
Female cat at least also change. In the very least while in heat they become overly affectionate (I guess overly is not the word in my own view just more affectionate.) The give long drawn of meows. Spend a lot more time nuzzling up against things or people. And they also tend to lick their crotch more.

Side Note
Sad story about the young kittens. It is so much harder to take care of them when they are so young and still need milk. (I think CiCi is the runt by the way she isn't as big as her two surviving brothers. She is in fact a great deal smaller.)

serafim_azriel 02-23-2009 06:07 AM

@Seph- Oh I know they act differently, but not in a 'I'm so depressed now that I'm not a man!' sort of way. The only animal I've had that's acting differently after getting fixed is my latest kitten (who was a rescue kitten), and she's just slept a bit more and has actually become more affectionate. Of course, this might also be a over-time issue as, like I said she was a rescue kitten and was terrified of most everything hen we got her, but has since begun to be less afraid.

We've gone a bit off topic, though, I think...

Wonderwice 02-23-2009 06:17 AM

Ya we have, my fault sorry. But to get back on topic...

People who buy pure breeds, for the most part, buy them from a store that is supplied by a puppy mill. They don't look about he breed before hand.
People that do buy from good breeders normally get the dog fixed. The breeder will make them get the dog fixed for health reasons and so accidental breeding don't happen.

I saw someone say people breed for the money. Well, there isn't much money in it for most people. They do it for the love of the breed. The only real money comes form the champions. It will make some side money for people like a few hundred to get some things they want. But it takes a lot of time to raise the pups and a lot of money to feed them. It's not done for the money for the most part.
Puppy mills are for the money, not breeders.

Seph Lonehart 02-23-2009 09:54 AM

Sources
 
Quote:

With the rising popularity of the Dalmatian breed, there has been a rapid increase in the number of deaf Dalmatian pups showing up in homes, pet shops and Humane Societies across the country. THIS IS A VERY SERIOUS PROBLEM.

Deafness is NOT uncommon in Dalmatians. It has been estimated that from 10% to 12% of the breed is deaf. Recent discoveries in the genetics of deafness have made it possible to reduce the incidence of deafness, with the possibility of virtually eliminating it in the future. Hearing research is currently being financed by the Dalmatian Club of America Foundation, Inc., various regional Dalmatian clubs and interested individuals. However, for the time being, it is important that deaf pups be dealt with in a responsible and HUMANE fashion.

Responsible breeders NEVER knowingly sell, place or give away deaf pups to pet homes. Deaf pups should ALWAYS be humanely destroyed by a veterinarian. In the event that a deaf pup is inadvertently placed, it should be replaced with a hearing pup. Many breeders have their deaf pups put down at three to four weeks, though some choose to wait a few weeks longer. Dalmatian pups normally start to hear at fourteen to sixteen days of age, and hear by five weeks of age if they are going to hear.

The deaf pups which are showing up in unsuspecting homes, pet shops and Humane Societies are generally bred by either "commercial breeders" (puppy mills) or by inexperienced Dalmatian owners who are unaware of deafness in the breed, are unable to identify deaf pups or are unwilling to have them put down. NO ONE should consider raising a litter of Dalmatians without being prepared to deal responsibly with any resulting deaf puppies.

The Dalmatian Club of America Board of Governors feels very strongly that deaf pups should NEVER be sold, placed or given away, and most certainly should not be bred from. Deaf Dalmatians are hard to raise, difficult to control (they are often hit by cars when they "escape") and often become snappish or overly aggressive, especially when startled.

IF YOU ARE THE OWNER OF A FEMALE DALMATIAN, and plan to raise a litter, be sure that you are prepared to deal responsibly with any resulting deaf pups. If you have trouble identifying deaf pups, please ask for assistance from an experienced breeder.

IF YOU ARE A STUD DOG OWNER, be sure that your stud contract requires that deaf pups be properly handled.

IF YOU ARE THE OWNER OF A DEAF DALMATIAN, and are having problems with the dog, don't feel "guilty" about it. Consider starting over with a healthy, hearing pup. (And DO have the deaf dog put down.)

IF YOU ARE AFFILIATED WITH AN ANIMAL SHELTER, HUMANE SOCIETY OR DOG RESCUE SERVICE, PLEASE do not attempt to place the deaf Dalmatian puppies and adults that come in, and do not advertise for a "special home" for the "poor little deaf Dalmatian." The HUMANE approach is to put down the deaf Dals and concentrate on finding good homes for the healthy, hearing dogs.

IF YOU ARE A PET SHOP OWNER, please remember that deaf Dalmatians should NEVER be sold.

IF YOU ARE PLANNING TO PURCHASE A DALMATIAN, contact the Dalmatian Club of America, the closest regional Dal club, or an experienced local breeder who will guarantee that any pups offered for sale have normal hearing.

IF YOU ARE A VETERINARIAN, please advise your clients to put down any deaf pups they may have bred. PLEASE do not make it any more difficult for your client by suggesting that perhaps a "special" home might be found. With the enormous surplus of unwanted dogs in this country, there is no need to preserve dogs with problems such as deafness.
source: http://www.thedca.org/deaf1.html
See anything wrong with this? Instead of taking care of and fixing said deaf puppy. They suggest "Humanely destroying a deaf puppy."(the use of destroying rather then killing is desensitization of the act.)

Read their suggestions about killing a puppy rather then having it be fixed and being allowed to live a normal life. (They even seem to talk about this with people who AREN'T breeders)
I find this disgusting their views put simply, Kill the problem breeders made in the first place to fix it later on.

Irresponsible breeding is the result of "mutts?" (The OP's view)

This kind of purebred breeding (mentioned in the quote) sounds like the irresponsible breeding that goes on to me. And killing off a deaf puppy instead of fixing it and alerting any potential buyers that this puppy is deaf and should not reproduce (if it wasn't fixed) seems like irresponsibility in breeding.

Of course I'm talking as are they about the common genetic defect of Dalmatian's being born deaf. (Not dogs later becoming deaf with old age this can be natural as it can be with humans)

serafim_azriel 02-23-2009 10:19 AM

That's horrible! My grandma's old Dalmation, Matches, grew deaf, though he wasn't born deaf. I do not see the point in putting down animals that are deaf or blind or similarly disabled, as those are conditions that can easily be worked around. After all, humans adapt quite well to being deaf or blind. I do see a point, however, to 'culling' some pups, but only those with major health issues that will lead them to live miserable or 'okay' lives at best.
Alot of breeders, though, do believe in killing instead of just fixing disabled dogs. I'm not sure why, though I suppose the only reasonable excuse would be they believe that disabled dogs will not be adopted and will only end up being put to sleep regardless, which, is somewhat true. A lot of people don't want a special needs animal, in the same way they wouldn't want to take care of a special needs human.

HIM_ROCK 02-23-2009 12:22 PM

I'm alright with people having and breeding a certain breed of dog, as long as they don't interbreed their animals like some owners of puppy farms do, because they can't be bothered to travel to another breeder to pick up a dog that isn't related to any of theirs. And as long as they don't destory any one "that isn't correct acording to the kennel club guide".


Seph Lonehart 02-23-2009 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HIM_ROCK (Post 1764086695)
I'm alright with people having and breeding a certain breed of dog, as long as they don't interbreed their animals like some owners of puppy farms do, because they can't be bothered to travel to another breeder to pick up a dog that isn't related to any of theirs. And as long as they don't destory any one "that isn't correct acording to the kennel club guide".

But see I'm talking about people That do destroy puppies

HIM_ROCK 02-23-2009 06:10 PM

I don't see why the breeders don't sell on the puppies, ok so they're not as the kennel club's guide says how they should look, that's no reason to destory a prefectly healthy dog. They're not going to get the thousand or so that they could for a pedigree but it's better than destorying it.

Alot of vets now refuse to put healthy dogs down and it's only older vets who have known breeders for years who still do that.

I can see the law on breeding being changed soon after a documentory on the effect that inbreeding has on dogs.


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