A topic that's recently come up in my high school is that a handful of the teachers lower their standards for the kids who don't do so well in school.
One of my teachers lets kids with poor grades take only half of our tests, and just completely disregards the questions they didn't answer.
Another of my teachers hands out less homework, or is also very forgiving on her grading.

Do you think this is right? Do you think teachers/schools should allow this?

Please note: These are not the kids who just slack off and let themselves get horrible grades because they don't care. These are the kids who don't do well in school because they're just not very intelligent. They also don't include the kids with mental disabilities or social disabilities.

So, what are your viewpoints on this?

As for me, I'm on the fence about it. I can understand how the teachers may think they're helping the students, but I also can see the downside to this.

This might clear up a bit of the confusion:

Sorry for the confusion: Our school district has a much different "Special Ed" system.
All of the kids with the mental/social disabilities are pretty much removed from the general population and they go to their own school.

I'm talking about the kids who just.....aren't very smart. They do try in their classes, and they don't necessarily slack. They just have a hard time grasping concepts or subjects.
I mean, I'm sure we've all met someone who's perfectly mentally capable, they're just not very intelligent.

I just couldn't think of another way to phrase it without saying, "All the stupid kids".

Aren't 'special ed' children in a seperate class?

I'm confused you've said (unless I read it wrong) that these are not lazy or unmotivated students. Then I gather they are not the type to act out or otherwise disrupt class? Are you certain there are no learning disabilities involved here? Saying they are flat out not very smart isn't exactly an objective view. Could be class is moving too fast for them or that they have poor test taking skills. Something like that. Whatever the issue the teachers and the administrative staff at the school should be working together and round the clock to pinpoint it.

If it is a matter of test taking stress or time management issues they could have a few after school workshops to help the students cope. If it is a matter of the class moving too fast, a smaller class designed with such students in mind would be very beneficial.

Here's the thing. If it's "not in the budget" the school will do what they already seem to be doing. Make the teacher's deal with it.

That's bullshit - especially since there's always money spent on frivolous things like (example) a new mahogany desk for the principal but the people who abuse the budget like their new desks and Christmas Bonuses. They aren't going to volunteer to "trim the fat" on their end.

Nope.

These are the people who say something along the lines of the band needs new uniforms?
What are we supposed to do cut funding to the soccer team? We don't want to do that, let's have another fundraiser.

I touched on something there the band or the soccer team ... much more likely to be vocal and petition the student council to make some noise to the staff about needing this or that. Students who are struggling in class are usually not going to want to draw attention to that. Very unlikely to speak up. The only people who might speak for them are the teachers and they get shot down as soon as they open their mouths.
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I too have some confusion, you are saying this applies to 'special ed' students which AREN'T those who slack or are mentally disabled. I however thought 'special ed' WAS a special class specifically for the mentally and learning disabled.

I myself struggle with math, I just flunked Intermediate Algebra in junior college and must retake it this spring, but I am not mentally or learning disabled nor do I slack on the work, however I am not in anything classified as special ed. Math is just a subject I have trouble in, not to mention I had a professor who certainly was not into the idea of taking it easy on those struggling; he was harsh with his grading and testing, quite merciless you could say. College in general is not very merciful, that is what takes it a step above high school. However a specific brand of the same class designed for students such as myself would be nice. In fact I think there is such a class, my best friend and I noticed in my school's catalog an Intermediate Algebra class that comes with some kind of tutoring lab. Unfortunately the hours were not convenient for me. Plus I have a dyslexic friend who had once tried to enroll in my school in a special program for the learning disabled.

So I suppose my school does keep the struggling in mind, and I think to a certain extent that does not border on hand outs I support your school doing the same because I myself am a struggling student in a certain area.

some special ed students are in the same classes as everyone else. and don't ever say "so-called special ed students". I my self sat thou high school in the same classes as everyone else and I have A.D.D. thou out elimentery school around grade 6 having to ask for the notes from the over head and only doing half the words on spelling tests and the looks and comments i got from everyone really sucks.

Sorry for the confusion: Our school district has a much different "Special Ed" system.
All of the kids with the mental/social disabilities are pretty much removed from the general population and they go to their own school.

I'm talking about the kids who just.....aren't very smart. They do try in their classes, and they don't necessarily slack. They just have a hard time grasping concepts or subjects.
I mean, I'm sure we've all met someone who's perfectly mentally capable, they're just not very intelligent.

I just couldn't think of another way to phrase it without saying, "All the stupid kids".

Wicked - I think you're the only one who understood me. XD
That's pretty much what I was trying to say.

Could you please not call your special ed students 'not as smart', 'unintelligent', etc because as I stated in my first post I myself am a struggling student in math but just because a person struggles does not make them any less intelligent than anyone else. In psychology class when I was a senior in high school our teacher showed us a paragraph written by a dyslexic student that was in her class several years previous. The hand writing was atrocious, hardly legible at all but she told us that this student happened to be the smartest in that particular class; A DYSLEXIC STUDENT, the smartest in the class!

I was always jealous of my best friend because she was always in AP classes and I always got Cs and Ds and it made me feel like I was not smart; but she always told me that I was smart even though I struggle, that being in AP didn't make her smarter than me but rather a different kind of smart. She just didn't struggle as I did, she picked things up easier. Also my grades have vastly improved as I went into college with a new worth ethic; I now get more As than I could even imagine in my high school years despite that I still struggle(refer back to my first post as I talked about my math). I have even made the Dean's list. So please excuse me for being a little offended that you are calling struggling students such as myself unintelligent.

Moving on, I want to go back to the reference to my psych class though, as it brought up another point that should be stressed here. As should have been obvious from my story our dyslexic students in the high school I went to attended classes with everyone else despite that dyslexia is a learning disability that causes more struggle than the average student. I have a friend with dyslexia that actually shared several of my classes throughout the entire four year span of high school. And I have not been in a special class in my life, I am an average student with no learning disability. She would just get EXTRA help from some special tutoring class aside from school hours. So it is possible for the learning disabled to attend regular classes just special after school programs/sessions for extra help are what I find more necessary.

No, no, no.
That's not what I'm trying to say.
I'm not talking about kids with mental or social problems.
I'm not talking about kids with dyslexia or learning disorders.

Ugh, forget it. No one understands what I'm trying to explain here.
Just let this thread wilt and die.

Oh well I apologize for any misunderstanding.

I understand what you're saying.

I don't see as to how it's really helping them in any way. In fact, it's likely doing the exact opposite, as only requiring them to take half the test is basically telling them it's okay to completely disregard half of the information; therefore, they aren't actually learning a large portion of the material.

It may help them to raise their grades in class, but shouldn't the purpose of school be to educate students about what they need to know to succeed AFTER high school? In the end, the teachers that are deciding to lower their grading standards for these students are hurting them much more than helping them.

Ah ok I see what the topic here is now; allowing the struggling to do less of the same work? That is most certainly sending out the wrong message as ~NorthEastFire~ stated. The struggling need to work harder not less, that is completely unfair to those not struggling and it's pretty much the equivalent of letting them get away with doing poorly.

This is ridiculous. Apparently these teachers don't think these students are going to college and need to learn real study skills?

I know in my school, when students were falling behind, or having difficultly, the teacher always offered some after school tutoring to help them out. You don't just curve their grading so that they get a better grade in the class.

These students are going to ill-prepared for the real world. Bosses don't let it slide when you didn't finish your work because you have difficulty understanding, they'll hire someone who does understand it.

In my opinion school isn't about learning history, or mathematics, it's about developing a work ethic. These teachers aren't providing their students with a guide to a proper work ethic and these students are going to suffer for it.

being a little slow in school isn't going to change much. cutting back on the work isn't fair for the rest of the students. for them, maybe assign something different. i know that those who don't do very well because they arent that smart can still catch up. i know there was one boy in my class that, back in elemtary school, wasn't very good and did a lot of work from the grade below us. even in high school, he was still a little slow, but by the time we graduated, he was doing the same work as the rest of us, and he was actually doing better than me, i think. i think i was just on the regular honor roll, and he was on the superior honor roll.

Oh, I'm terribly sorry Heruuna! xD I actually misread your initial post; typical me.

I see what you mean now though. :) Well, in the school systems I've experienced, we had different classes for different skill levels in each subject, so if you were struggling with one class you'd get moved into a group more suited to you, I don't know if you have this system in America? In any case, it's certainly not appropriate for teachers to be disregarding incorrect answers for certain pupils. However, I think giving them less work or having them skip tests does make some sense, there's no point making them take tets they can't pass and giving them homework they can't handle.

But if these students are really struggling with the work they shouldn't be in the class at all, if they're doing their best and they just can't grasp it I think they should be getting support in a seperate group of their own or some such. Which as I said is the system we generally have here. :)

I was lucky and went to a high school that had higher standards. I don't think that students that are struggling should get easier grades or should get to skip tests. I never did and I have a major case of ADD. What happens when these kids get out in the real world? Do they expect their jobs to go easy on them just because they are unmotivated or feel they can't do the work because they were used to things being easy for them?

Originally Posted by Mystic

I was lucky and went to a high school that had higher standards. I don't think that students that are struggling should get easier grades or should get to skip tests. I never did and I have a major case of ADD. What happens when these kids get out in the real world? Do they expect their jobs to go easy on them just because they are unmotivated or feel they can't do the work because they were used to things being easy for them?

But do you think that a child who is having trouble keeping up with schoolwork at the same level as other students should just continue like that? Now as I said I agree that marking them differently is not the answer, but what they need is support from teachers. And the original poster herself said the kids she's talking about aren't unmotivated, they're just having difficulty for whatever reason with the work they're set.

Is it not really the practice of ignoring these children and forcing them to continue with work they don't understand that's going to trouble them in 'the real world'?
Being mistreated and misunderstood by the education system is very damaging for a person.

(I hope my reply hasn't come across rude or offensive, my apologies if it has!)

Originally Posted by Huffie

But do you think that a child who is having trouble keeping up with schoolwork at the same level as other students should just continue like that? Now as I said I agree that marking them differently is not the answer, but what they need is support from teachers. And the original poster herself said the kids she's talking about aren't unmotivated, they're just having difficulty for whatever reason with the work they're set.

Is it not really the practice of ignoring these children and forcing them to continue with work they don't understand that's going to trouble them in 'the real world'?
Being mistreated and misunderstood by the education system is very damaging for a person.

(I hope my reply hasn't come across rude or offensive, my apologies if it has!)

My high school offered special education classes with workshops to help people not fail their classes but in cases like mine I was also in normal classes and even some AP classes as well. If a school does not offer classes like that then I think it's the responsibility of parents to step up and get outside help such as an outside tutor or something like that since kids won't always try to help themselves. A little bit of study skills goes a long way since it teaches proper techniques to hold onto and get information better which makes a huge difference.

Sometimes it's the way the way the material is presented for me. I don't get some things if one person tries to teach it but if someone presents it in a different way I get it. I'm VERY visual so I tend not to get things like math and other non visual subjects. I think students "not getting" the subject matter also is partly because teachers do not apply a variety of teaching styles to their curriculum. A lot of teaches just do more of an audio style with very little visual or hands on learning which is important since people learn differently.

My whole point of my last point was pretty much that people learn to take advantage of things if you let them which in the long run hurts them more than helps them.

Originally Posted by Mystic

My high school offered special education classes with workshops to help people not fail their classes but in cases like mine I was also in normal classes and even some AP classes as well. If a school does not offer classes like that then I think it's the responsibility of parents to step up and get outside help such as an outside tutor or something like that since kids won't always try to help themselves.

That sounds like a pretty decent system, but the kids in the school in question I'm thinking don't have that option. A lot of parents can't afford that kind of service themselves, my family, for example, when I was in school couldn't afford to pay a couple pounds for class trips or non uniform days.

I agree whole heartedly about your point on presentation! You can't really blame teachers though when they have a class of thirty to deal with, I won't get into this because there's so much that would need to be changed for the school system to work like it should. XD

Your last point I quite agree with also at least in the matter of ignoring incorrect answers. :) But I really think they shouldn't be taking the same tests at all if they've not even got extra tuition to help them understand the subject/s.

Originally Posted by Huffie

But do you think that a child who is having trouble keeping up with schoolwork at the same level as other students should just continue like that? Now as I said I agree that marking them differently is not the answer, but what they need is support from teachers. And the original poster herself said the kids she's talking about aren't unmotivated, they're just having difficulty for whatever reason with the work they're set.

Is it not really the practice of ignoring these children and forcing them to continue with work they don't understand that's going to trouble them in 'the real world'?
Being mistreated and misunderstood by the education system is very damaging for a person.

(I hope my reply hasn't come across rude or offensive, my apologies if it has!)

I agree with this which is why I said that special after school study programs should be held for those who are struggling. In middle school I myself was a member of a program called 'Soar', it was an after school program for the struggling. I believe I was in the seventh grade.

Or have the in class teachers give them more one on one attention during quiet work time.

You will never be able to get better in something, by doing less of it ;)
My little sister is a struggler. Her old teachers never had time to deal with her bad eyesight, so she couldn't keep up with everyone else. But now she has moved to another school, where she can stay after school and get help. They get a lot more homework, and homework + help after school = her grades are getting better. She's become a lot better at spelling, and counting and such, so I think it's very wrong to give the strugglers better grades, just because they are struggling. Maybe they feel better about it, but it doesn't make them smarter, and they will poop bricks when real life hits them.
More help = Smarter kids.
=3 My little sister is the cute proof.

Okay, now everyone understands. XD

That's my whole point. How exactly is it helping them?
Well, I'm still on the fence because I can see how it would help, but I also can see the many downsides to this.

What are the positive aspects of this method?
Well, for one, seeing that they have an A on a test instead of another F can help boost confidence and determination.
If they're seeing that they can, in fact, get a high grade, they might even try harder.
Another is, they know they're being treated differently. They don't want to seem dumber or less capable than the other students in the class, so they'll try harder to be treated equally.

But, as others have stated, this in no way prepares them for the real world. College professors won't go easy on them, bosses won't go easy on them, and the government sure as hell isn't going to go easy on them.

And, if these kids happen to be dishonest to others and themselves, they'll certainly take advantage of these easier tests/assignments, instead of trying to better themselves.

Sadly, our school does not offer an after-school program for middle school on up. We have Study Skills classes, which anyone can sign up for, but if you have a busy schedule and can't fit all of your required classes in if you take Study Skills, then you're out of luck.

Huffie - Your class system sounds quite similar to the one my middle school used while I was attending. I don't agree with this method, however.
There were a few things I learned from that.

One, was that there was never anyone to help understand something.
If the teacher gave us a lecture on our current subject, everyone in the class understood it. They would all get to their work, and there was never any discussion on the topic among students. (I was always in the top class.)

Granted, the students asked some very intellectual questions, there was little interaction between students and teachers. The teacher would just go back to their desk and never have to help a struggling student.

But another reason was that in the classes with the students with lower grades, the teacher had to always help someone. They never got a break, and could never finish any work from other classes. Most of the time, a teacher's aide would be in the classroom helping the teacher and other students. So, basically, there were two teachers for every classroom, which can strain the budget of the school because they have to pay double the salaries.

Now, in high school where this method isn't applied, students of all types are just thrown into a class. Now, if a group of students didn't understand something, another student could easily explain it to them in words they could comprehend.

The kids were always talking with each other, discussing the topic at hand and offering their viewpoints and methods. It was a very rich learning environment, and the feeling you got from helping someone understand something was very rewarding.

Originally Posted by Heruuna

Sadly, our school does not offer an after-school program for middle school on up. We have Study Skills classes, which anyone can sign up for, but if you have a busy schedule and can't fit all of your required classes in if you take Study Skills, then you're out of luck.

Do you HAVE to take all your required classes at once? Because if these students seriously need help than perhaps they shouldn't be taking so much at once thus making room for the study skills class because that sounds exactly like what I have been talking about this whole time even back when you thought no one was understanding your point. Is it possible take just a few of the required classes at a time, and the rest the next year maybe? Sorry maybe I am being stupid and thinking too much like the college student I am because that is exactly how college schedules work, they are up to you. They really should hold some kind of study skills classes after school hours though, it really is more convenient for grade school.

Well, if you push some of your required classes into your next year of school, then you not only have those, but all of the other required classes for that year.
And if you kept putting them off, then you'll be stuffed with everything on your Senior year.
Plus, our school requires you complete an area of concentration. An area of concentration is basically what you're planning to do once you get out of high school. They have welding, auto/diesel, computers & technology, college prep, business, health occupations and a few others.
This also limits the customization of your schedule, especially if you go into the welding/auto/diesel/health/engineering area, as those classes go to a special program for four hours of the school day.

Another thing I wanted to add is that practically every class we take is a required class. I was allowed two elective classes in my Freshman year--Arts & Crafts/Ceramics and World History. But now that I think about it, I ended up not taking Business Applications 1, which most Freshman take, and is required.
For my Sophomore year, I have only one semester that I had an elective for--Music Appreciation. It gets replaced by Health in the new semester, which is a core class.
So now, I have no electives.

So yes, our schedules are really busy, usually leaving room for only one elective, or an elective for only half the year.
Unfortunately, there are very few openings for the Study Skills class, as people either don't have the room to fit it in, or all of the classes are already full with kids.

My goodness, that is a bit too harsh of a push to make you decide your major to that extent while your still in high school. You shouldn't have to concentrate on that so much but rather to just keep your interests in mind. The only thing my school had us do in regards to that was what was called the 'I-search' project in the eleventh grade. It lasted a semester long and was basically a report on what you desire to major in. It included a basic study of the field and it's educational requirements and two interviews with someone in the field. I did very poorly because I hardly knew what I wanted for one, I basically focused on being an author but failed to get my interviews. I pretty much flunked the assignment. Actually it might have been two fields you were interested in and the two interviews were one for each. That was one of my problems I had no second idea, I remember that now.

Originally Posted by Heruuna

One, was that there was never anyone to help understand something.
If the teacher gave us a lecture on our current subject, everyone in the class understood it. They would all get to their work, and there was never any discussion on the topic among students. (I was always in the top class.)

Granted, the students asked some very intellectual questions, there was little interaction between students and teachers. The teacher would just go back to their desk and never have to help a struggling student.

Well, I suppose it depends on the school eviroment in which it is implemented, because we were always encouraged in any level class either to put our hand up and ask the teacher or ask the person we were sitting beside if there was anything we didn't understand. :) (The problem with that though of course is that if you're a wallflower like me you can't get up the nerve to do either. :lol:)

But another reason was that in the classes with the students with lower grades, the teacher had to always help someone. They never got a break, and could never finish any work from other classes. Most of the time, a teacher's aide would be in the classroom helping the teacher and other students. So, basically, there were two teachers for every classroom, which can strain the budget of the school because they have to pay double the salaries.

Ah, now this I think depends a lot on the students doesn't it? I don't really understand this actually, if they were doing a different subject at an easier level you'd think the amount of children asking the teacher for assistance wouldn't be much different. I mean, this is just my experience, I've been in the lower, middle and higher classes before and I never saw much difference save for the subject matter.

I thought I was common practice to get teachers in training for classroom assistants? :D We usually had them, I guess I dunno about in the states.

In any case though, I do see what you mean about teachers not having time for being called away to help certain pupils, I think it would be much better if there were smaller classes, but again, it's not really something I'd care to get into at present because there's just so much that would need to be changed for a system like that to be put into practice. :lol: