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-   -   Right or Wrong? (https://www.menewsha.com/forum/showthread.php?t=161343)

Amelia Ivanov 05-26-2010 04:04 PM

Right or Wrong?
 
I came across this article today, and just wanted to know people's thoughts on the matter.

Quote:

Police: Witness Opened Fire On iPhone Thieves
Gresham Police Say Shots Fired 'Could Have Gone Anywhere'

POSTED: 6:18 am PDT May 26, 2010
UPDATED: 8:09 am PDT May 26, 2010

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GRESHAM, Ore. -- A man who witnessed several iPhones being stolen from an AT&T store chased after the theft suspects and opened fire Tuesday night in Gresham, police said.

Roger Witter, 48, told police that he saw two men stealing a number of iPhones from the store near Northwest Division Street and Civic Drive at about 7:45 p.m.

Gresham police Sgt. Rick Wilson said Witter then chased after the thieves while armed with his gun. Witter ran to the corner and saw the thieves trying to drive away, so he decided to try to shoot out the car's tires, Wilson said.

Witter fired two shots in direct line with the Gresham City Hall MAX stop park and ride. It's not clear if the shots hit the car.

"Those two rounds could have gone anywhere; in fact, we're still not sure where they went," Wilson said. "They could have struck an innocent bystander or damaged property."

Witter told police he was just trying to detain the suspects for police. He was booked into the Multnomah County Jail on charges of unlawful use of a weapon, unlawful discharge of a firearm, reckless endangerment and disorderly conduct.

"No matter how frustrated one may be with crime, it is not permissible to use deadly force in this type of situation," Wilson said.

Witter's concealed handgun license and his handgun were seized by police. He was released from jail Wednesday morning and was ordered to appear in court Wednesday afternoon.

Police described both thieves as black, 5 feet 10 inches to 5 feet 11 inches tall, skinny and 20 to 30 years old. One of them wore a gray and black horizontally stripped hooded sweatshirt, blue jeans and white tennis shoes. The other wore a brown hooded sweatshirt, blue jeans and dark shoes.

They were last seen in a silver Chrysler heading west on Northwest Division Street.

PrincessBane 05-26-2010 05:49 PM

I'm kinda half-and-half with this one. I think that the cops were right to detain him, but I acknowledge his intentions for good. He was reckless and could have killed/injured some people for two petty thieves, what he should have done was to call the cops and give them all the information like the car's license plate, a description of the criminals and where they were headed. Still, it was brave of him to go after them since...people are crazy nowadays and anyone can just turn around and blast your head off.

Amelia Ivanov 05-26-2010 06:33 PM

this is true and it seems the majority of people feel this way... btw, where'd you get those fangs? D:

Hufflebean 05-26-2010 06:36 PM

I'm curious as to what specifically in the article you are referring to with your title 'Right or Wrong?'.

I think it was wrong of 'Roger Witter' to attempt to intervene/detain the individuals by endangering them and whoever else was around at the time, and for breaking whatever laws himself in doing so. Beyond that, I'm unclear on how to respond, sorry.

PhantomLolita 05-26-2010 08:26 PM

I'm all for gun rights and people taking care of their own problems without the police, but I don't see why you would shoot at anyone for stealing. (especially something so small) Unless they were clearly out to hurt people, I don't see why that was necessary. I understand his intentions, but he overreacted. I don't really think they should have the right to seize his gun though. He didn't hurt anyone and should still be punished. I think that will teach him not to use his gun in such situations again.

Nissa 05-26-2010 08:33 PM

Mr. Gun crazy was wrong, good intentions do not change that. There's a reason why vigilante justice is against the law, and that is because situations like this come up where some well meaning person acts before thinking. He could have easily wounded or killed someone, all for the sake of some iphones. If he really wanted to help, he could keep a cell phone handy and take a picture of crime when it happens, instead of bringing out a gun and possibly harming an innocent bystander.

Quantum Angel 05-26-2010 08:36 PM

His actions were overly emotional, impulsive, and irrational. I understand that his intentions were good, but his methods were reckless. The best thing for him to have done would be to get a good description of the vehicle, and ideally a license plate number, even partial - not try to take the law into his own hands. Having a concealed weapons permit does not mean that you have the authority to use potentially deadly force on anyone for the sake of anything other than self defense.

I believe revoking his permit was the best thing to do in this situation. I am on the fence on whether or not they should have taken his gun, however - it is his right to own a weapon, but I do believe he needs to be retrained on when to use it.

Bearzy 05-26-2010 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhantomLolita (Post 1767334607)
I'm all for gun rights and people taking care of their own problems without the police, but I don't see why you would shoot at anyone for stealing. (especially something so small) Unless they were clearly out to hurt people, I don't see why that was necessary. I understand his intentions, but he overreacted. I don't really think they should have the right to seize his gun though. He didn't hurt anyone and should still be punished. I think that will teach him not to use his gun in such situations again.

I agree with Phantom, I don't think he should have shot at the criminals, even if he was aiming at the car wheels. It's too easy to miss. I don't know much about gun laws though. I live in New Zealand, the police don't even have guns.

Philomel 05-27-2010 12:14 AM

I would have to agree with what a few of the people have said. He didn't have "good intentions". He was trying to kill people over iPhones. When someone kills an innocent person to steal their iPhone, we call it petty, but when someone kills a non-innocent person to keep an iPhone from being stolen, we call it good? No, it's petty and awful regardless. No material good is worth a person's life, regardless of who that person is. And that's ignoring the entirely innocent people who could have been killed (and whose deaths, in all likelihood, would have been pinned on the suspects and not the gun-wielding maniac).

Anyone who has his priorities this screwed up should not be allowed around deadly weapons, period.

Usagii-sama 05-27-2010 02:41 AM

I'm on the fence for this one.

although the police are right, he could have endangered someone else. But he was just trying to stop the thieves by shooting the tires of the get away car. I'm not sure which way to think on this.

AldreaOrcinae 05-27-2010 03:20 AM

The article fails to mention if his handgun was registered, if he had a license for the weapon and if he'd gone through the proper classes for carrying concealed firearms. (I'm guessing not, since his reaction was to go running out of the building and try to put out tires Lethal Weapon-style.) He was more of a danger to the public than these two thieves and his actions were clearly irresponsible, so yes, the police actually were correct in detaining him. Nobody needs to lose a limb or a life over a couple of iPhones.

pinkii 05-27-2010 03:54 AM

According to most jurisdictions, I read that it's illegal to use deadly force on another individual unless your life is in danger. AND in even some states, you're not allowed to use a gun on anyone whose attacking you with a simpler weapon, like a bat or something. I don't know, i wish I had links or my book to provide more accurate details, but many states are pretty strict when it comes to citizens using guns.
Although his intentions were good, there were other SAFER methods to help stop the criminals. What he partook in may be seen as vigilantism, which I remember, is something that law enforcement are not fond of. He could have called the police and given them the proper descriptions of the thieves, car, etc.
But no, he attempted to be a hero, and he could have potentially wounded (or even killed) an innocent bystander.

So did he do anything wrong? Yes, in terms of the other possible options he had, but I feel that he didn't mean to put anyone's life on the line. He acted on impulse and I hope the police understand that all he wanted to do was help out (and maybe give him a lighter sentence like misconduct).

Hermes 05-27-2010 05:39 AM

AldreaOrcinae, right at the very end it says they confiscated his gun and license, so the article did state he had a license.

I think people shouldn't be allowed to carry weapons with them like that at all, so a situation like this shouldn't even arise.

Codette 05-27-2010 03:29 PM

he shouldn't have had a concealed license, he shouldn't have had a gun, he should've used a cell phone or camera to get pictures of the men, the car and the license plate. I hate guns, thus I hate the licenses even more. He could've easily shot an innocent bystander, or killed the robbers, or even by shooting the car wheels, he could've caused the robbers to loose control if the wheel blew, and they could've crashed into a building or bystander, and killed the robbers indirectly, if not a bystander as well.

No he was wrong. He was reckless and caused indangerment!

Suzhi Mix 05-27-2010 06:51 PM

I completely agree with Syraannabelle.
There are reasons for why we have police.. and one of those reason is to deal with people stealing. Even if he had shot the wheels and detained the thieves without causing anyone harm, he should still be taken in and had his license removed because of the possibility of him killing people. even the robbers lives aren't worth a couple of Iphones.

Stefania 06-01-2010 02:41 AM

That is wrong,

Mystic 06-02-2010 04:28 AM

Guns should only be used if your life is in danger. He should have just got the license to the car and called the police and let them take care of it. I'm glad he got the gun and license taken away. There's a huge difference between trying to save your own life and endangering other people's lives over phones.

Popcorn Gun 06-02-2010 05:48 PM

@ Mystic ::

Exactly.

----
If the men were unarmed/not shooting at him, he didn't have a reasonable excuse to pull out his gun and just start firing at the men. They were theives, so of course they weren't in the right, but neither was the vigilante citizen.
There are ways to do things, and he didn't do them right.
The path to hell is paved with good intentions.

Hermes 06-06-2010 01:44 AM

I've personally always thought anything that I could term vigilanteism was a bad thing. I mean, as far as I can tell, most of our lives are not like the movies, and the police really are handling things properly.

Voe 06-06-2010 03:00 AM

If he wants to protect his city like that, he needs to become a cop first. That's all there is to it. ;\

xnozomichanx 06-07-2010 03:51 AM

right. we can't have people running around shooting at others in a vigilante style. it's too risky. and you don't shoot at people who are in the process of fleeing, even if they're stealing phones or merchandise. he had no right to open fire on them

Detrunorm 06-07-2010 11:10 AM

I live in the UK, and a little while ago, there was a big thing on the news where some guy burgled another guys house, and the man who owned the house chased him down the street with a baseball bat. There was a lot of people asking the same kind of questions.

IMO, it's pretty wrong to own a gun if you're a normal civilian; why do you need one? The guy shouldn't have even had one. Aren't the majority of gun wounds caused by accident?


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