No there isn't. If morality doesn't rest on God, it rests on whatever you or I feel it is. In which case it's everything and nothing at all. In which case there is basically no such thing. The only way there can be any real morality is if it does NOT depend on you or I. Since I highly doubt the rabbits and squirrels will be giving us any divine mandates anytime soon, God does seem to be the most probable source for a morality defined as anything other than "because I feel like it".

BUT ... they WILL believe homosexuality is normal/all right. Which is a problem if, according to the real law of a real God, it is NOT all right (see my FIRST post which lays out the technical reasons). I can raise kids to believe that lions are cuddly kittens that won't hurt a fly. But if reality disagrees with me, then I would be delusional and my children would be kitty food. "REALITY" is the key word here. Not training, not opinions, not what we like or don't. And according to "personal morality" it's all right to literally anything, as long as you feel like doing it, which is by far much more messed up than saying it's immoral to violate natural (not to mention divine) law.

Well, I'm not sure particularly why we should all have to abide by the laws of physics if we don't like them. Unfortunately, if something is real, it doesn't seem much to care one way or the other whether we take a fancy to it or not. Otherwise lunatics would have a wonderful advantage over the rest of us. Just think of all the Napoleon's and Hitlers in insane asylums out there who could be ruling the world right now, if only their personal version of reality were made fact just by their wholeheartedly believing in it, or not liking the reality which is contrary to their beliefs.

Wrong, actually. Nature makes it's laws known quite by common sense. Now everyone (above a certain age) knows that certain acts are, naturally speaking, for the procreation of our species. Therefore, since the purpose of those parts, and all that they entail, are shown by nature to be used for that, then to use them for anything else but what they naturally are intended for is to use them for a purpose that is not natural. If you COULD take God out of the equation, then it would not send a man to hell to die with that sin on his soul. However if you could do that, it would not send a man to hell to kill, rob, hurt, etc, people as much as he wanted to either.

However the problem is that if God exists, then we cannot take him out of the equation whether or not we like Him, His laws, or hell's yawning pits. And if that God is the author of nature, then a violation of the law of nature is a sin against it's author as well. (And as a writer hates the fanfiction that $asterdizes his art and everything in it, I can well understand His anger to some human extent.) The issue people overlook again and again is the question of the reality about God's existence and all it implies. If He's there, we can like it or not, but His law will stand. If not, we're all hypocrites and idiots for pretending any morality whatever, or even entertaining any discussion of them, and fools for not behaving like animals and barbarians... on the law of "I want".


If God had not given us a free will, but forced us all to be good and go right along to heaven, our existence would be as meaningless and empty as any homage we paid Him... forced, and without substance. If God gave us no free will, but had some men be good and others be evil, that is to accuse God... Who is perfect... of the imperfection of injustice... that is, to condemn the innocent. But in giving man a free will, God never gave man the RIGHT to do wrong. Only the ABILITY. And the two things are worlds apart. If I have the RIGHT to do wrong, then no one could justly punish me for doing it, since I have the permission. If I have the ability, I may do good or I may do evil, but if I do good I am deserving of a reward, and if evil, I am deserving of a punishment. But the fact that I can choose does not dismiss the responsibility of my actions. If I'm ABLE to kill doesn't mean it's all right for me to kill.

God gave us a free will so that we would have the ability to CHOOSE to love and serve Him, and so gain the reward of eternal bliss. But in order to give us that choice, there had to be a different option than that. Something for us to choose between. We are ABLE to choose evil, but since all evil is to wrong God ultimately, and ourselves, the laws of nature, and/or other human beings secondarily, it becomes a matter of justice... wrongs must be punished, and justice fulfilled. God made us able to sin, yes, but also able to NOT sin, and in fact, not only told us not to, but has given us every help and ability to avoid doing so. The cards, shall we say, are stacked in our favor. So if then we go ahead and do evil, just because we're able and want to, we are every bit culpable for it, and justice demands retribution for the wrong done against God, ourselves, our neighbor, etc... according to the degree of offense. Hell, of course, is an infinite punishment for offending to the very end an all perfect and infinitely good God Who did nothing but wish us to choose rightly. That He didn't revoke our ability to choose otherwise is not an evil, but rather His standing by the good gift He gave us that permitted us to choose the good. Those who cry "foul" are just trying to pass the blame from themselves to God for their own misdeeds.

If they really are "immoral heathens" no one who either really knows God, or seriously loves Him, could possibly "be at peace" about it. To love someone truly and sincerely is to love what they love. To love what God loves is to love every human soul, and to wish that every one of them (as God loves them all), to get themselves to heaven. Anyone who claims to love God and is at peace with the thought of their neighbor going to hell, or suffering in ANY way, is a liar. God doesn't rejoice in the infinite foolishness of a human being who decides to hate Him and love sin rather than Him or even their own selves (how can you claim to love yourself and not care about your eternal fate?). He is perfect love. But ALSO perfect justice... which is something this "anything goes" society has a hard time understanding. God loves, but God will not be mocked. He's not the "pushover" dad who, when junior gives him the puppydog eyes, will let junior make a fool out of him and get away with murder.

If there was no justice with God, where would there be any justice? If an offense against a mere human being, or even an animal (in the case of abuse or cruelty for the sake of cruelty) is punishable according to justice, how much moreso an offense against God Himself?

If tomorrow a court of law signs into law that henceforth gravity is illegal and therefore no longer in effect... will stuff start floating? The makers of human laws can declare anything LEGAL. But that doesn't alter reality or truth. If the courts would declare gravity illegal, and no longer effective, you can bet that common sense would tell most people not to exercise their new-found freedom from gravity by jumping off of tall buildings.

Likewise, if morality stands upon the law of God (because it cannot stand upon the brain or heart of man), then the courts can declare tomorrow that mass murder is legal and good, and if God says otherwise, it will still not be moral, but a crime and a sin in the divine court ... and there are no lawyers there who aren't among the accused.

If the US has decided not to regard or abide by the law of God, that still doesn't nullify or alter the reality about that law. The US can declare itself the devoted follower of the other guy if the majority of the people like the idea. But the moral reality... that which stands upon the law of God... won't change regardless of the policy of the US to disregard it, or of the courts to legalize what God has called illegal.

Why would God bother about a human document? Probably because He suffered and died to redeem our rotten souls, and would like very much if only we would decide to benefit from that sacrifice by following His law. Any human action which breaks that law and endangers souls is obviously, then, a matter of interest, considering all He's done to make a different eternal outcome possible for each of us. But more than that, the law of man and the authority of those who govern men, are empty except for the authority given to our rulers by God to uphold His law and save the greatest number of souls possible by making good laws and not immoral ones. If a country decides it's policy is going to be to disregard God's law and send souls to hell by making legal that which God has shown by nature to be illegal... it is not only dangerous for souls, and a matter of concern to God, but nothing less than a direct slap in God's face on the part of the lawmakers and the country's leaders who allowed or caused that immoral law to be made law. Just picture hiring a guy to watch your sheep, and then returning to find he'd taken a liking to the wolves, and had been feeding them lamb chops out of your flock. That's the leaders of countries making immoral laws. And just what will the owner of the sheep do to the guy who has been feeding the wolves his beloved little fuzzballs? The whole situation takes on a darn-near epic proportion when you replace flock with us, the bellies of wolves with eternal fire, and the owner of the sheep with a God of infinite power and perfect justice. Just picture the hired man in the belly of the wolf with the sheep.

People may find it funny to think that a great and infinite God could be so interested or mindful of our affairs, but... as the Bible says, "the very hairs of your head are all numbered" by Him, and that not so much as a single sparrow falls to the ground without God's consent. If God has counted our hairs and consents to the doings of individual birds, how much more important is a law that says a grave sin is all right?

Morals are a human creation, set down by societies as a whole and not the individual. So you're right that it doesn't depend on you or I, but it doesn't have to depend on God either. General morals are formed and accepted by entire cultures, not just a single person. Otherwise, we wouldn't have differences in morals between cultures. People seem to be the most likely cause of morality, not a God. If there were a God, I'd like to believe that he has far more to do than sit around enforcing arbitrary sets of rules anyway.

Oh dear, they might be accepting of others.

Raising your children to believe lions may be detrimental to them, as they might think it's perfectly okay to crawl into a lion's cage and try to play with it. Raising your children to believe gay people are okay will make them not hate gay people, which doesn't end in them being mauled. The reality, since you're fond of it, is that gay marriage doesn't actually harm ANYBODY except the people directly involved and they appear to be okay with the risk of being sent to hell. Or whatever.

Physics I know are real. Physics I can see all around me, every day. Thus, I must abide by them as I have no choice. God's laws, on the other hand, are something that stand with absolutely no solid proof. To me, they are meaningless and I see no reason why I, or any other non-believer, should have to abide by them. If there is no God, then there is no logic behind following the word of God.

From my perspective, this seems rather fitting to describe Christianity. If God doesn't exist, believing in him hard enough won't make him exist.

Toilet paper rolls are intended to serve as a holder for toilet paper. That is their only intended use. However, I like to use toilet paper rolls as a gerbil toy. I find it works well. Am I going against the laws of toilet paper rolls by using them for something other than their express intended purpose? And is every single sexual act save intercourse, between a man and a woman, in the missionary position an unnatural and therefore wrong thing to do?

If God is there. However, if God is not there (or perhaps a God other than the Christian incarnation) then we're denying gays basic rights for no reason. And I firmly believe that there is no reason why EVERYONE should be forced to live their entire lives on the notion that perhaps there is a giant floating man in the sky.

Uhm, so all of our morals and values disappear in the event that they weren't invented by God? It's not possible that they might have come from US?

There is no ultimate justice or consequences. Plain and simple. You pay for your bad deeds on Earth, via jail time or fines or whatever, and that is it.

I honestly have a very hard time believing in such a loving, caring God who will send innocent people to hell simply because they like the same gender. Or a God who will allow his entire populace to run itself into the ground and go extinct. See, if I were running the world, I might step in and make sure that humans don't eat up every last resource we have before we all finally overpopulate the earth and eventually die off. This God you speak of sounds more interested in going on an ego trip than truly loving every individual on the planet. And if he does love everyone, like you say, then doesn't he love the gays too? And if he loves them, like he loves every one of his children, shouldn't he want them to be happy and wed? For someone who supposedly loves everyone and everything, he's awfully willing to smite a person for something entirely out of their control.

The invisible penguin in my basement deems gay marriage a criminal enterprise, and I therefore entreat you, in the name of Reality, to have it abolished. Also: stone the fornicators, have naughty children mauled by bears, and rape your enemies' women. That is all.

Well my opinion on this whole gay marriage thing is YES....its not much of a debate really

How rude! Necrophiles need love too!

...Ok, jokes aside, I think any living person should have the right to get maried to anyone if they want to. Everybody wants to love and be loved, no?

Okay who are they to say that you cant marry a person. If you love someone then whynot....thay are people too...... I mean is is anyones bussniess what goes on behind someones bedroom door???!???!? i sware people piss me off!!!!!!

Marriage is a human right not a heterosexual privilege

yes the should be allowed to marry it's not like the world will end if they do and does it really hurt anyone. It's like when blacks weren't allowed to vote, should we really pull the same thing again and let history repeat its self. I think not! Gays should have the same freedoms as straights!

First of all, I believe that civil unions should have the same rights and marriages. Once that's been established, I think we ought to get rid of the idea of marriage altogether, for same-sex and opposite-sex couples. Save that for religious ceremonies-- the Church and State should be separate.

I'm not at all into the idea of marriage, but I think that all couples should have legal rights and benefits for staying together, even if it's not something I would do.

I just want to share one the funniest anti homesoexual arguements I heard when I was at the statehouse. Assuming I haven't already shared this and forgot.

OK, some of them said that homeosexuals cannot get married since they cannot produce children with each other. OH my...unnatural and not meant to be.
Alright, here's what makes this crazy...Since they are basing marriage on fertility, then no infertile heterosexual couples can get married either in "their book". Crazy stuff..
I suppose they'd want to test every person for fertility levels before allowing them to get married.
Since people who cannot naturally produce children ( infertile people, transgendered ? and homeosexuals) are violating that rule they setup that every married couple must produce children with each other.

i dont see why not, if two people love eachother then thats all that really matters right?

Why can't people give me my basic rights as a human being? I'm not going after your children, I'm not trying to say that heterosexuality is wrong, I'm not doing anything to interfere with anyone's life.

I just want to fall in love like any normal person, and then be married to them and have my family celebrate our devotion and love. I want to be able to give children without parents a stable and loving home. I want to feel like I'm not a second-class citizen in my own country, a country I love even though bad choices have been made in its laws throughout the time.

I do not hate America, even though I can't live as a normal member of society. I have to put up with school taunts because of my sexuality. Who knows what it might escalate to? Is the ignorance of some person going to result in my death? The death of my friends? The death of my partner or children? Do religious extremists have the right to put ignorance into the minds of the people, to deny homosexuals the right to be seen as normal members of society?

I'm not the bad guy here. I just want a fairytale romance, like many girls do. I just want to share my life with someone of the same gender, someone who loves me and understands me and wants to build a home with me. Is it so impossible a dream that I can walk down the isle- like my parents and grandparents, who had to deal with the issues of inter-racial marriages?

I do not believe in the God of Christianity, so why should he have any control over my life on this Earth? I gave up Christianity long ago, but still it comes back to haunt me through the people who just won't live and let live.

I am a human being. I deserve my basic rights. If anyone has any reason why I shouldn't, step up and say it. Be aware though, that most of the same reasoning used to discriminate against homosexuals is the same reason that got my ancestors beaten and lynched- because we're different, and a minority, and therefore easy to pick on. Because we're sub-human, because we're immoral, because we'll destory your neighborhoods and marry your relatives. Soon your children will see us as normal. Soon we'll be members of society with certain basic rights.

Do we really live in a world where people have to think about whether gay marriage is right or not?

Yorihiko, you give a very flawed argument on the premise that morality stems from Christianity. Morality predates religion. Morality has existed apart from religion, and monotheism. Buddhists do not believe in God, yet they are religious. Atheists such as myself do not believe in god, yet we have our ethics. We do not descend into chaos, and no, we do not harbor an "ANYTHING GOES!" attitude. In fact, I argue that I have a more reasonable system of morals not dictated by old dogma. I do not believe anyone is watching over me, yet I continue to do the right thing in my eyes. It is not for someone to observe and it is not for redemption. I do not seek salvation from anyone. I do what is right because I CAN.

I loathe the idea that Christians are the only people with "real" morals, and the only "real" love is from god. If you are going to go with Old Testament morality, you might as well stop wearing poly-wool blends and stop eating shrimp. It is absolutely absurd, in my opinion, to judge other individuals for their homosexuality when "god fearing" Christians go to Red Lobster and do business on the Sabbath all the time. Should those people be allowed to marry? Should we picket the local Seafood stores and sell our daughters into slavery?

That would be true chaos and life would be descend into Sodom and Gomorrah, if we followed the Bible's version of good and moral behavior.

Yay gay marrage is the same connection as heterosexual.;

Gay marriage all the way! I don't understand what the big deal is going against it. Gays aren't breaking into houses, ripping apart a husband and wife and forcing them to marry a person of the same gender against their will. And religion...well, in the bible there's a story of a group of children teasing a member of the church because he is bald. In return god brings out two bears from the woods who kill all 40-some odd children. So killing children is ok while gay marriage is not. This is in...*looks up verses* 2 Kings 2:23-24. Someone explain that to me.

I really don't understand why gay marriage isn't legal.

I don't, not one bit. I can't wrap my mind around WHY someone would deny another person the right to be married to someone they love- but, of course, I don't understand the concept of marriage, either... Why do you need a document that's standard from the government saying that you love another and decided to live with eachother?

If I were going to marry my girlfriend, I'd put on a fake ceremony if it weren't legal, if she wanted a pretty wedding.
But, otherwise, I'd just skip the wedding and not bother with that. :/

But, How is No gay marriage enforced? If a gay couple's married, are they put in jail? o_O