The only way for this whole, hunger thing to be solved world-wide, is for there to be less people. The amount an average human can and MUST eat, is far too great for the world to handle. This is a twisted thought, but what if a program was made where anyone with too low of an IQ was shipped off to be used for experiments? Of course they would be fed and treated like any other testing animal. Imagine it! people would have a reason to gain more knowledge, other than to pass high school by the bare minimum!

PETA makes ALL animal lovers look like crazy paint wielding fiends.
They're a waste as an organization and run solely on hypocrisy and manipulation.

Take the president of PETA, Ingrid Newkirk. She stated that "Even if animal research resulted in a cure for AIDs, [they'd] be against it". HOWEVER, Ms. Newkirk suffers from a certain type of diabetes that requires her to take medication in order to survive. And guess where that medication came from? YUP - from a lab that PERFORMS ANIMAL TESTING. Her medication resulted from numerous test on ANIMALS!! (Right Ingrid - you're against animal testing that could save millions of lives BUT when your own life is at risk, YOU wouldn't mind a few animal sacrifices to save your own hide).

And take that infamous case where several PETA staff members have been euthanizing perfectly healthy animals taken from shelters. THEY COULD HAVE GONE TO GOOD HOMES...WTF PETA!? Out of the state of Virginia alone, in 2005 out of the 2,138 animals surrendered or picked up by PETA, 1,946 were euthanized.

And don't even get me started on their advertisements. Have you seen those pamphlets aimed towards kids? YOUR MOMMY AND DADDY ARE MURDERERS!!!! THEY'RE BAD PEOPLE!
Here's an image of those said pamphlets: http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/peta.jpg

They even had the NERVE to compare the HOLOCAUST to factory farming. YES I KNOW THAT FACTORY FARMS ARE TERRIBLE PLACES FOR ANIMALS BUT HAVE SOME SENSITIVITY YOU SICK PEOPLE.

That's my 2 cents worth on the subject.

This would be a pretty hard point to prove as Intelligence is at best an anthropocentric trait. So from the word go, simply being an average human(what is that?), gives them a huge advantage over any Bear.

It is the most human thing not to eat animals. Why? because not eating meat is not natural.

:3 Let me elaborate:
Every omnivore and carnivore in the world is born to be just that, to eat other animals. There is nothing morally or ethically wrong about a tiger eating a deer or a bear killing a moose. It might be a little bit painful to watch but one can't save the deer because a deer looks cute, or assume that the tiger must be ruthless and the deer innocent because the dear is being eaten. "Ruthless" and "Innocence" are only human notions.

Humans, however, are different in the sense that they are able to curb their own instict for what they value- their beliefs, or their philosophy. Humans can choose what to eat, where to eat, when to eat, and whether to eat at all. Humans are the only 'animals' capable of fasting to death voluntarily.

Looking at it from the general point of view, one can even say that humans are "not natural" in that sense, that they are able to something that no other animals or plants on this planet can do.

In that sense it is a natural thing for a human to eat meat, since although humans descended from herbivore ancestors, humans have evolved to become omnivores. (We wouldn't have canine teeth if we were designed to be herbivores.) However it is a human thing to voluntarily abstain from eating meat, as are religions, wars, arts, literature, etc.
Being human doesn't mean being compassionate, however. While compassion can be a human quality, wars aren't compassionate but they are human things. It just means that it is simply somethings that humans(and only humans) are capable of.
Voluntarily not choosing to eat or not to eat something is a human thing because only humans can do that.

So what's my point? My point is that neither is good or bad- eating meat, or not eating meat. PETA's argument that eating meat is not natural for humans or that it is violent/cruel/inhuman does not stand because it is the most natural thing that it can get. But is is a unique human thing that human beings can abstain from meat (or any other substance) that makes us different from animals.

Of course, the treatment of animals- as in the manner in which animals are raised and killed, fall under the question of morals and ethics. But what I wantd to say was the simply the question of whether to eat meat or not is not an ethical or moral question.

At least, that's what I think. I'm a vegetarian by the way :)

Peta's motto is a rat is a cat is a dog is a child. Which means they consider a rat equal to your children. I personally dont. I have hunted and fished for many years. I quit hunting because I got to where I didnt want to shot an animal. But I still eat deer meat and always will. Humans are the top of the food chain and many people that hunt also pour a lot of money into preserving the animals they hunt. It was mostly money from hunters that started turkey and wolf relocation programs to bring them back to areas they disappeared from. But Peta wont tell you that. I do think that animals should be treated humanly and when hunted or grown and used for food can be humanly killed. Animals in the wild live in a world where they expect to be killed and eaten at any time. Many starve to death due to over population. Keeping wild populations in check cut down on diseases and road kills and starvation. With less large predators around it falls to man to control the populations. And man by nature is a meat eater. Peta is full of crap. Those people dont even want you to have pets. They would rejoice to see an animal kill your child, and say thats nature. A lot of them know nothing about animals other than they are cute. Peta, destroyer of man.

I'm expecting to get a little flaming for this. I usualy do.

I raise pigs for slaughter, cows for milk and chickens for eggs and the occasional slaughter. I make part of my living off of it. I kill my own animals when the time comes, with the aid if a meat processing van, and have been doing this for 6 years.

Needless to say, I've had to deal with PETA a few times, up close and first hand. I've lost a pig and 5 chickens to them coming in and letting my animals loose. The pig was never found, I'm fairly sure they took him, and the chickens where all dead in the morning, their necks broke. I lost a cow when they get her out of the barn and branded her with a coat hanger. She went down a hill and broke three legs. I've had to set up barbed wire on my far fence to keep them out, but am always checking it for cuts. It's been years since they've targeted me, but they go after a lot of the farms in my area, and for the most part, there's nothing we can do about it. We don't have names or faces, just warnings from PETA when they protest at the agricultural association in town.

I love my animals. Every last one of them. I take good care of my cows, one just gave birth, the calf is almost a month old and looks just like her mother, and I felt like a mother myself helping birth her. My breeding pair of pigs had 6 piglets 2 months ago, and I fell in love with one, named her Cocoa and decided to keep her. When she's old enough (A year, not the 6 months slaughter houses go by) I'll find her a mate and she'll be my next breeding pair. I never have more then 2 at a time.The other 5 piglets, however, will be slaughtered. It's a passion, but also my livelihood.

The strange thing.. I don't really like pork. I'll eat it, but only sometimes. I'd rather have a nice big salad with lots of tomatoes any day. I don't consider myself a vegan, I just don't like the taste most of the time. Prolly because when I was pregnant, it made me sick.

But I digress. My point is, PETA doesn't care how the animals are treated, and always do more harm then good. My poor cow was laying at the bottom of a hill in pain for 6 hours before we found her and could put her out of her misery. If they care so much, why would they torture a defenseless animal like that? It's worse then any of the misleading ads they have on slaughterhouses and animal cruelty.

PETA is a terrorist organization that needs to be stopped, like any other terrorist organization. It needs to be shut down and it's leaders need to go to prison. And all the money they earn from their campaigns and celebrity endorsements goes to propaganda and advertising. They don't use it to HELP anyone but themselves and their own pockets. They make me sick.

I'm just glad my cats stay in at night.. I don't know what I would do if they got hold of my kitties >.<

Um, I have a very hard time believing you, Molly. PETA has even intentionally distanced itself organizations that are too hands-on when it comes to protests. If it happened at all, I'm pretty sure it wasn't members of PETA, or at least ones sanctioned by the rest of the organization. I mean, randomly breaking chickens' necks and branding cows? Why in the world would they do that? They're weird and a little extreme, but that's just pointless cruelty more akin to something bored kids would do. I've heard a lot of ridiculous things attributed to PETA and it seems like the people claiming these things get away with it when they otherwise wouldn't because it's PETA, and it's "cool" to hate on PETA, even if you don't know anything about them. And they aren't terrorists, because they don't use fear of bodily injury to get people to do things. That's really the only thing that separates terrorists from those who stage protests and have sit-ins and whatnot.

Also, a minor note. It's not that they're against pets, they're against the word. It suggests a master-slave relationship in which you have the right to treat your "pet" however you want, and while legally that's not the case, it does make some people believe it is, which results in more abused animals than there would be otherwise. Most PETA members have "companion animals" and are very big on adopting animals from shelters if you're at all able to. Oh, and about Obama, that's another instance of people going OHMAHGAWDPETA and losing their minds. PETA issued a statement after the incident saying that they weren't going to say anything to him, after the first thing out of everyone's mouths was "Oh, I wonder what PETA's gonna say!". That's all. And yet somehow it's been burned into people's minds that they got all in Obama's ass and made a huge deal out of it.

As to the topic, I'm vegan. However, I'm iffy about my support for PETA. On the one hand, they're idjits. They do ridiculous things that end up doing more harm than good for the cause and making themselves look like a joke. Because of them, *I'm* treated as a joke, even though I'm not in any way affiliated with them. They undermine the entire movement and do it so well that I sometimes think it's intentional. Plus, the whole Vick thing really pissed me off. They had no right to forgive him. It just wasn't their place and they exhibited a complete lack of concern for the animals involved by saying "Oh, he's sorry, let's forgive him and move on." On the other hand, I'm glad we have them. They don't worry about PR, so they get things done that other groups wouldn't. They don't play politics, and they don't do what many would wish and sit quietly by, passing out fliers that people would just throw away and being meek and timid. I view them in the same way I view the militants during the Civil Rights movement -- I don't agree with their methods, but they seemed to get certain things done that needed to be done that no other way would have gotten done, at least not as quickly. So, I guess I would say that I support their existence, I just don't support them.

Philomel I suggest you look through news storys involving PETA and mass animal killings. There is a law suit pending at the moment, where in 2 PETA members are charged with removing more then 50 animals from a shelter illegally and destroying all of them by, in the state's eyes at least, inhumane means. The evidence? A video tape of the whole thing.

They opened an illegal dog and cat slaughter house in Virginia, caught hundreds of "stray" dogs and cats and put them down immediately. Again, this is awaiting trial.

And a case a few years ago where a PETA protest group let 3 circus horses loose and chased them away from their handlers while keeping the handlers busy.

PETA doesn't like pets. They might like animals, but if it's domesticated in any way, they would rather see it dead, and I think they've said this on a number of occasions.

Yes, it might be a few members acting on their own, but that doesn't mean PETA isn't at fault for their extreamist views.

And the proof that our local problems are most likely PETA? We have a group of 20 or so PETA members that come in from the nearest university every few months and protest at our agricultural association. I've been threatened many times, I have friends who have been followed home and a few PETA members have been caught in the act on the property and arrested.

Yeah, I count them as a terrorist organization. Shutting down food processing plants for days at a time is an act of terror in my eyes. If they weren't born on US soil and did the same thing, they would be counted as such.

Edit: Sorry, I may have gone just a little off topic with this one. Will be more careful next time.

I'm not saying that they'd never hurt an animal, I'm saying it's pointless. While I don't agree with them at all, the idea behind killing stray animals is most likely preventing them from further suffering. Misguided, stupid even, but in their minds, it has a purpose. (And I'd like to know exactly what these "inhumane means" were. It isn't necessarily that they killed them in a way more painful or gruesome than the law allows, which is sort of how you're making it sound.) In that way, yeah, I could see the chickens. But branding the cows? What would possess them to do that? It just seems like the random, horrible crap kids do, like killing black cats around Halloween or setting dogs on fire.

And I don't really care what you count them as -- terrorism is something specific. It's not just getting in the way of things, or costing people money. It is, specifically, using fear of bodily harm to get people to do or not do something. This is why Martin Luther King, Jr. wasn't a terrorist, while the Unabomber was. Or, why someone who boycotts a product and convinces others to do so isn't a terrorist, while someone who runs around setting fires in stores they don't like is. Mind you, some people do get wrongfully labeled "terrorists" in the heat of the moment (see, for example, the peaceful protestors put on terrorism watch lists by the government not too long ago), and actual terrorists are sometimes not called such (who can forget when, during the last presidential election, Palin claimed abortion clinic bombers weren't terrorists?), but this is generally due to people applying their emotions to words and not any sort of confusion on what the word really means.

Philomel, you are wrong about PETA they will do it. They turn animals loose to get hit by cars or starve to death. They release sick or disabled animals to die. As for protesting they are one of the most vocal and public. They have been known to vandalize places of business even to the point of burning buildings down. Yes they are terrorist. And the worst part is they care nothing for human life. I hope every last one of them falls victim to the abuse they heap on others. I know personally of things this organization has done. They would have you have your pets eating caviar while you starve. Dung that is what they are.

The phrase "Domestic Terrorism" is defines as such.

The law gives guidelines for domestic and none domestic terrorism. One is as follows;

This includes aiding organizations that participate in domestic terrorism. If you're not familiar with the organizations known as the Earth Liberation Front (ELF) and the Animal Liberation Front (ALF), then you might not be aware of PETA's long standing connections to domestic terrorism. And this is an admitted and traceable connection.

The PETA-ELF connection

(I only use this ESPN link because I don't have a subscription to the New York Times and can't access the original article.)

I'm not a fan of pulling text from articles, so you can read it (or not) for yourself. Or, do a search for PETA and ELF or PETA and ALF. You might be surprised at some of the terrorism charges against both Liberation Fronts.

The short of it is, ALF and ELF burn buildings, start fires and put lives at risk. ALF has been named by the FBI as a domestic terrorist threat. And PETA funds these projects and funds the legal proceedings that follow.. then files it all as a tax write off.

Ingrid Newkirk, the international president of PETA, when speaking of ALF, has said;

As you said before. The actions of the protesters in my area might not be sanctioned by the main PETA office, but should they be held responsible? In much the same way, is PETA responsible for the hundreds of thousands of dollars "Donated" to these organizations? Is it responsible for the acts committed using that money? I think they are.

Right on. You sure got it right.

I can't really discuss this because I agree with you completely

I have nothing against vegetarians that doesn't eat meat because they simply don't like it, and as you said, don't trust what the meat producers put in it...

I myself love meat, so I am eating it, and a lot of it too

I simply just don't understand when people get all "holy"
Because if they think it's evil to eat another animal (We are animals too)... then what about all nature's other predators? We don't think a tiger or polar bear evil for simply surviving, do we?

Alright, gang up on me.

Midnitemyst: Prove. It. Prove that they do these things. The only proof I've seen is of them putting down animals that had a good chance of dying anyway. I don't agree with it, but that's a far cry from intentionally being cruel to animals for no reason. Speaking of which, read my damn post. I didn't say they wouldn't hurt animals, I said that what she described is so pointless and stupid and random that if it happened at all, I don't know why on Earth she's attributing it to PETA. This seriously reminds me of how, when I was little, black cats would always turn up dead around Halloween and instead of blaming it on sadistic little kids and keeping a closer watch on them, people ran with the idea that it was Satanists. It's just a massive leap in logic that I'm not going to accept without proof they actually did this.

MollyJean: I know of ELF and ALF. However, supporting someone and being the same as them are two very different things -- just ask all the big-time politicians in the US who support companies that give money to terrorist organizations. They aren't being charged with terrorism, and neither is PETA, because you can't vicariously be a terrorist. Dirtbag, definitely, but not a terrorist.

Kah Hilzin-Ec: One person's unverified account is not enough to label someone a terrorist. Also, that isn't terrorism. That's intimidation. Not a whole lot better, but in no other circumstance would that be considered terrorism. Plus, they may not be (and probably aren't) affiliated with PETA, or at the very least, their actions were not sanctioned by them. You can't take the actions of a few individuals and use them to label the entire group a terrorist organization.

As far as your little picture goes, I hope you don't expect me to believe that has anything to do with terrorism. If so, then I dare say many of the more vocal pro-life protestors I've seen are terrorists, since I don't really like seeing giant pictures of bloody fetuses in that setting either.

Peaceful doesn't have to be nice or polite. It's simply nonviolent. And, as a whole, PETA is nonviolent. I would certainly do things differently, mind you, and like I said, I don't support them, but you can't just go around accusing people you don't like of terrorism.

Kah Hilzin-Ec
I disagree about "protecting" the innocent children. I don't get why it's wrong to let children know the truth behind meat production. For children that eat meat, then there's nothing wrong with them learning where their meat comes from and how the animals are raised.
If you think eating meat is acceptable, find the methods animals are raised for meat and slaughtered acceptable, then why "protect" the children against something you find acceptable?.


Well said again Philomel...
I am critical of Peta as well, however I do not see them as terrorists.

I think some of you would do well to read animal rights literature/writing.
You don't have to agree with it, it would help you understand where they come from.

Philomel, we're having a civilized discussion, no one has targeted you that I'm aware of. There's no need to get defensive. You have our opinion, we have ours.

And mine is that if I where to give money to a terrorist organization, like Al Qaeda, I would be charged with a terrorism related crime. And I'm sure if I had millions of dollars to bury the charges in, I wouldn't worry about it. PETA has been charged with vandalism, has been charged with destruction of property, and has been charged with cruelty to animals.

PETA makes state police 'terrorist' list

PETA Workers Charged With Animal Cruelty

FBI Papers Show Terror Inquiries Into PETA

I also believe that terrorism is not limited to the ACT itself, but the idea.

This is why they're on FBI watch lists for terrorism. It's not just an opinion, it's being investigated. Maybe they don't have the proof yet, maybe there's red tape and cash in the way, but they are terrorists, and one wrong move could mean their downfall. I hope they make that move soon.

I have no problem with MY daughter dealing with dead animals. She lives on a farm, it's part of every day life, she helps me pluck chickens and asks questions about what parts are inside when I gut them. I like to think what she's learning now might help her in whatever carrier she chooses later in life. She's 7, by the way. She's been doing this since she was 2. It's not really a big deal in our house.. but I can understand a 6 year old's mother getting mad when their child is targeted without their permission with propaganda and lies.

Some kids aren't emotionally equipped to deal with life and death at that age and PETA doesn't care who they traumatize with their manufactured images. Just makes me ill thinking about it.

http://www.petakillsanimals.com/down...llsAnimals.pdf

Federal documents for the number of animals taken in, killed and adopted by PETA each year. in 2008, of 2,216 animals received by PETA, only 7 animals where adopted out. If they haven't committed acts of terrorism against people.. They have against animals.

I'm kind of tired of this debate, however. I've made my points and provided facts in the form of news articles and statistics, and that's all I can do.

Just to add to the whole PETA terrorism thing, If terrorism=bodily injury, then wouldn't mass animal killings be terrorism? or destruction of animal property?
I don't think terrorism ends at human beings. Animals can be terrorized too. And the worst part is, at least slaughter houses are killing animals humanely and making use of the bodies. PETA kills them for no reason, brutally and then leaves the body there to rot. What a waste.

Oh, make a point and leave. Nice one. Anyway.

Slickie: It is destruction of property. Animals are, legally, not people, they are property. So no, terrorism doesn't apply to them. I'm pretty sure what you just did was some sort of fallacy, I'm just not sure which.

I haven't left, I simply finished my argument on PETA. I have no more points to provide and you really haven't provided anything to rebuke or challenge. In fact you've offered little in the way of a counter point to my arguments, so it seems a little one sided. To keep going would be the same as preaching. *shrugs*

There is still the matter of veganism that I haven't really talked about, if anyone wants to talk some about that. I have no problems with it. Sometimes I hate meat in general. When I was pregnant the scent made me sick, and sometimes I get that feeling again, but have no problem with killing animals to get the meat.

I have no problem with vegetarians. To each his own. But if you say that PETA is not a terrorist group you unfortunately are sadly mistaken. I personally know of one taxidermist shop that was vandalized and burned to the ground and a local PETA group proclaimed they were responsible because they disapproved of hunting. That is terrorism. They have also admitted to stealing hunting dogs and taking them out of state to stop the dogs from being used for hunting. They go on private property and tear down deer stands and wreck hunting club buildings and gates. No they are not the gentle, kind animal loving good people you think they are. Do you not read their motto. Like I said it reads "Like a rat, like a cat, like a dog, like a boy". These are fanatics that value animal life more than people. I have personally been exposed to some of their tactics. You sure cant prove to me they are peaceful. Thats like saying a wolf wont bite you.

On the topic of vegetarianism, people are vegetarian for many reasons. So while it's unusual, I suppose one could be vegetarian and raise animals for meat.

Thats true and some vegetarians wear fur and wool and leather. They just dont like meat. Though I do know a vegetarian that does eat eggs, and fish and drinks milk. They just dont like beef, chicken or pork.

I'm not giving in to this mob mentality. You need to prove what you say they do or I'm not believing it. If I said that the local church came and burned down my house, you wouldn't believe it, and you would interrogate me for some kind of proof before you'd even take me seriously. And yet, you're expecting me to just believe you and MollyJean. No, I'm not going to, I'm sorry. People lie. People make shit up about groups they don't like. It happens all the time, -especially- with PETA.

Excuse the hell out of me? When have I ever said they were "gentle, kind, animal-loving people"?! In fact, several times, I have said quite the opposite. Do not talk down to me. It is rude, and it presumes far more about me than you have any right to. Of course, since MollyJean has decided that I'm not even a challenge, even though I have answered every one of her points, I guess I should expect such from you lot.

Um, do you not read their motto? They value animals and humans the same. This upsets people, sure, and yet again, though you'll likely ignore this like you apparently have every other time, I don't agree with it (since in all other creatures priority is put on species). But it's a big leap to go from "like a dog, like a boy" to "OMG they value animals more than humans!". They value them the same, but as with most people, you apparently don't understand equality and have separated it into "normal, treats animals as tools for us to use" and "fanatics, think animals are worth more than humans".

I have personally had my life, property, and pets' lives threatened by diehard meat eaters who believe that my refusing to give money to the meat and dairy industries is tantamount to treason, but you don't see me going around labelling you all terrorists.

No, that's like saying that you can't just assume that a few members of a group, usually those same members involved in other far more violent groups that PETA may or may not have any ties to, are representative of the whole group.

The fact is, you people are giving into a mob mentality. The same mentality that has caused nothing but violence, hatred, and oppression throughout history. If you want to hate on PETA, look at the facts. There's more than enough there to do it. Hell, you'd have a following already simply from the people who think it's evil to suggest we don't need meat, nevermind the ones that just genuinely disagree with PETA's methods and mentality. But don't make yourselves look ignorant by believing what every stranger on the internet claims and getting mad when people challenge that belief, simply because you're biased against the group involved.

Philomel maybe you should sit back and calm down a moment, you seem to be getting really worked up over this, and it's not an argument, really. Take a few breaths and come back when you're being a little more rational. Lashing out and cussing isn't the way to go here.