I had a question why it was only okay that some people are prideful while others aren't allowed to state how proud they are without being called a racist/being insulted/etc.

We all know that there's a Black month, Hispanic heritage month, a month for just about ever race or specia celebration anyways, for everyone except for whites. If someone white were to throw a 'proud to be white' fest, people would call them racist. This goes for different counties too.

I mean like, if someone from the UK or from Irland was in the US(I'm not sure about other countries...) but if they were in the US, they can easily say, PROUD TO BE IRISH! in ways such as the 'kiss me, I'm Irish' shirts and so on. This goes for everyone, but if you say, 'I'm proud to be an American!' in any sort of way, they call you on it and call you ignorant among another plethora of names.

This goes for homosexuals as well. Gays typically want to be accepted by the population, but they also take a whole month to celebrate their difference and rub it in peoples faces? Gay pride, but you don't see any heterosexuals with their own month to be proud of being heterosexual. And if someone were to start saying how proud they are to be Christian, well, you already get the message. People shut them down faster than they shut down proud Americans.

So... why exactly is it that there is this double standard?
Why is it okay for some social groups/classes/races to say their proud, but it's completely unacceptable for others?

Honestly, it makes very little sense to me.

I know exactly what you mean.
They have those things to show that they want equal respect as everyone else, but by now, it seems that a lot of the other races are getting more respect than others.. Sorry if THAT sounds racist, but the fact that some people get more benefits, get away with crimes, get paied monthly for doing absolutely nothing, and basically bowed down to makes me hate all of those pride things.
I can understand for the homosexual thing though.. Though it would be nice if they DIDN'T need a month and people just accepted them for falling in love with who they choose to love.

I hope that one of these days people will stop being so racist and homosexual and so strong against religions and stuff like that.
I wonder when that will be. >___<

Hmm, I'm going to have to argue with you about the "Proud to be an American" thing. To me, it feels like that pride has become a mandatory part of the national culture since 9/11. It isn't the proud people who stand out, it is the people who do not express their patriotism. Things like the Fourth of July, American flag t-shirts, patriotic bumper stickers, and Lee Greenwood country music are still widely accepted and flaunted.

I don't see Gay Pride as rubbing anything in anyone's face - It takes a lot of courage to come out of the closet. Many homosexuals are threatened with verbal and physical violence every day. Not only do they have to worry about being assaulted, but they often have to choose between acting on their attractions and maintaining relationships with their friends and family. Gay Pride Month is more about educating the population about their struggles and taking the step forward to stop this bias against them. If someone can be proud of who they are, despite so much adversity towards them, then they deserve a time when they can get the respect that they deserve. If we didn't stop and take the time to look at these issues, then it would often just be brushed aside.

The only pride movement that I don't support is "White Pride." Since there is no such thing as a "white race," I find this movement to be incredibly intolerant and belligerent. It's sole purpose is to further separate "whites" from minority groups.

White, straight men have the majority of power in the country. When you learn about history, unless it's a specific class (women's studies, AA history, etc), then you will learn about white, straight men.

To understand why there is no Male History month, Black History month, or Straight pride, then you have to look at the history of these things. The first history celebration was Negro History History week, which was started by Carter Godwin Woodson; this man was born to a slave, and because he saw that black history was not being recorded, like white history, he started organizations such as the Journal of Negro History. He did this because no one was recording it. All the history you found in books at the time (the 1920s) was white history, about white men, and what you could find about black history was slander against them.

It was later turned into a month, and February was picked because that is the month that he was born in.

Now, before you saw that this is behind us, and that we've moved forward, think about it for a moment: what inventions have African Americans given the world? The traffic light, the gas mask, the pencil sharpener, the fountain pen, a more advanced printing press (the original was made by a German, but it was later improved by a black man), postmarking, the sprinkler system, peanut butter, air conditioning, the refrigerator, crop rotation, the commode...

But how many black people are in the National Inventors Hall of Fame?
Four.
Out of hundreds.

Other history months followed in its trail, once minority groups were given more rights and wanted to be recognized for what they did and all that they contribute to the world. So in March you celebrate the culture of the Hispanics and the triumphs of women, and in February you might glance at all that African Americans did for the world, but, the overwhelming majority of the year will be spent learning about who?

White, straight males. So why would we need a month for them, when they have most of the year?

You're allowed to have pride--it's a just feeling--however, certain people express their pride by putting down others and that's where it can be wrong. The KKK and Stormfront (I've been to their forums and wanted to die moreso than usual) do this a lot.

Also you are wrong here:

This goes for homosexuals as well. Gays typically want to be accepted by the population, but they also take a whole month to celebrate their difference and rub it in peoples faces? Gay pride, but you don't see any heterosexuals with their own month to be proud of being heterosexual.

It's not to rub it in the faces of people. It's to cast of the shame that heteronormative society has put on them and say "we're not afraid of any of the violent acts committed against us!". Heterosexuals are the majority, the norm and they have so much of the media celebrating their ideals and lifestyle that it shouldn't so bothersome for you to see homosexuals coming out of the shadows.

I think that there should be a Human pride month, seriously. A month where people celebrate being alive and united as one, instead of being different. If you really think about it, that is what everyone really needs. To come together and accept each other for who we are. Yes our differences make us great but, if you look closer we're not so different from each other.

If you're going to give it to one, then you should have to give it to ALL. White pride is no different, better, or worse than black pride, or gay pride, or hispanic pride, and the list goes on and on. Oh wait, it IS different-it's called racism if a white person does it:roll:. I see several here making exceptions for either gays or being against someone having "white pride". Double standard much?

Originally Posted by Infinitys Echo

Oh wait, it IS different-it's called racism if a white person does it:roll:

And you know why it gets called racist? Not one of you people that make this complaint ever attempt to reclaim what White pride is... instead, you let hate groups decide what White pride is and then, oh this is the best part honey, YOU BLAME MINORITIES FOR IT. Isn't that great? :sarcasm:

What we have to remember here is that there is no "white" race. "White" is not a heritage or a culture. Instead it is a way of glossing over an individual's history and choosing to instead look only at their skin color.

I don't think that many people would have a problem with Italian Pride or Russian Pride or French Pride - these sentiments express a common culture and heritage and ethnic background. It links a person to their family and their customs. It is a great deal more descriptive and personal than simply saying "white." In that sense, I do not see this as any kind of exception to the rule. People are allowed to be proud of where they came from, no matter where.

Originally Posted by Infinitys Echo

If you're going to give it to one, then you should have to give it to ALL. White pride is no different, better, or worse than black pride, or gay pride, or hispanic pride, and the list goes on and on. Oh wait, it IS different-it's called racism if a white person does it:roll:. I see several here making exceptions for either gays or being against someone having "white pride". Double standard much?

Oh, haha, context has no meaning in the English language. :sarcasm:

Originally Posted by Cheya

And you know why it gets called racist? Not one of you people that make this complaint ever attempt to reclaim what White pride is... instead, you let hate groups decide what White pride is and then, oh this is the best part honey, YOU BLAME MINORITIES FOR IT. Isn't that great? :sarcasm:

First, I'm not your honey. Let's not go down that road.

Second, I'm not "one of those people". Do you realize how racist that sounds? Probably not, because you're probably assuming I'm either white or straight, and as long as it's towards a white person, or in regards to homosexuals thinking anyone who doesn't agree with their way of life must be homophobic, it's okay to say and do. You just proved one of my subtle points. Thank you. If a white person were to say "you people" to any other person other than a white person, they'd get reamed, before that person even bothered to think it may have been meant in any way other than in reference to that person's race, color, religion, or sexual preference.

Next, as to what white pride is, I have no idea. I didn't even address the true topic of this thread, which was pride. I moreso addressed the double standard that seemed to be presented by several people here in saying it was ok to have gay pride, and possibly other "pride", but white pride was not okay. Did you read my post? The first line stated if you give to one, you should give to all. My feeling on those types of pride is that they are all wrong. White, black, hispanic, gay, straight, Jewish, Christian, they're all wrong, in my opinion, at least in the sense that was being discussed here. I AM partial to having national pride though. All the others, in my opinion, only serve to separate us as a country, and I believe we, as a country, need to stand together. Our government may be corrupt, but WE, the people, are what make this country (USA), and overall, I still like to believe that WE are, in general, a good people. We as the human race should as well, but then, there isn't a threat from aliens or animals yet. Also, "we" do sort of stand together already as the human race, as "we" do try to govern human injustices against others, and help across the world during a catastrophe such as earthquakes and the like. Though there is much more "we" can do as a human race for others, we DO make a real effort.

Why is there a need for any of those types of pride? The only reason I can think of is that person's or groups' own insecurities about themselves. They should learn to be secure in themselves and within themselves, then maybe they won't feel a need to scream it to the world. For all my faults, I'm secure in myself. I know I cannot change who and what I am, so I accept it. But I don't feel a need to scream it to the world and have "them" accept me. Accept me for who I am, or not at all-I don't care nor do I have a need for others approval.

I don't blame the minority-I blame the individual person.

I'll stop there, unless there's something else you'd like me to clarify. I actually leave a lot out of my posts that I'd like to express simply because they are usually a wall of text to begin with.

Originally Posted by Infinitys Echo

Second, I'm not "one of those people". Do you realize how racist that sounds? Probably not, because you're probably assuming I'm either white or straight, and as long as it's towards a white person, or in regards to homosexuals thinking anyone who doesn't agree with their way of life must be homophobic, it's okay to say and do. You just proved one of my subtle points. Thank you. If a white person were to say "you people" to any other person other than a white person, they'd get reamed, before that person even bothered to think it may have been meant in any way other than in reference to that person's race, color, religion, or sexual preference.

But, the thing is, people who make this complaint are not solely white; people who believe that having pride is okay, or even a good thing, are not solely minorities. When she says "you people who make this complaint", she didn't say "you white people", rather, she addressed those of you who complain about a double standard.

I am white, and I understand the origin of minority pride and think it's a good thing.

Originally Posted by Kris

But, the thing is, people who make this complaint are not solely white; people who believe that having pride is okay, or even a good thing, are not solely minorities. When she says "you people who make this complaint", she didn't say "you white people", rather, she addressed those of you who complain about a double standard.

I am white, and I understand the origin of minority pride and think it's a good thing.

Okay, at this moment I'm finding it hard to find the right words to express what I'm thinking. So I hope I say this right.

She DID say "you blame minorities for it". Since white people aren't a minority (yet), I read it as she meant white people, which I think is a pretty fair assumption to make taking that line into consideration. Otherwise, yes, you're right, it's not only white people that make the complaint about a double standard. Different groups will claim a double standard in different cases. But in this instance, since I was addressing the double standard of whites versus other groups, and racism in those cases, and she responded to that, I think it's a fair assumption to make. Also, you're right, it's not only minorities who think pride in different things is ok, or even a good thing.

Because I made a sarcastic remark about it being racist when something is done by a white person, it's not liked. However, when someone else uses words like "you people" in what appeared quite clear to me to be referring to white people and "you blame minorities", it's overlooked. Tell me that's not a double standard. Not to mention I never said anything about agreeing with white pride or blaming anyone in that thankfully short post.

Take pride in who and what you are. However I don't feel there's any need to have a special day, week, month, parade, etc to scream it to the whole world. If you're going to do it, it should be done for every single race, creed, color, religion, sexual preference, etc. and let's face it, we don't have enough days in the year to celebrate every individual or groups' "pride".

What I have to wonder is why you would even WANT to be proud of being white.
White people encompass a huge number of different backgrounds. It makes a lot more sense to be proud of, say, your English heritage than simply being white. There is no central heritage or culture in white people, which is why it really makes no sense to celebrate it. On the other hand, a Native American would have a fairly specific background.
And no, it's not really fair that white pride is still associated with automatic racism but in the past, that's how it was and people still sort of have that in their brains. We just have to deal with it. Like I said, there's not much reason to be proud of being white anyway.

In my happy, theoretical world where unwanted pregnancies and racism never, ever happen we don't need gay pride marches or black history month because everyone is equal. However, we live in THIS world where some people are unfortunately still oppressed. I think it's reasonable to have some time to stand up and not have to be afraid of who you are.
I think we're approaching a time when this stuff isn't necessary. I'd like it not to be necessary. But right now, it is.
As my boyfriend says, "What do you mean, white history month? The other 11 months of the year are white history month!"

Hmm... I find a simple way to fix this for me. I put everyone at 50%. As I learn about them, they can either go up or down on how much I like them. I don't judge them first aside from something like "I wonder if they..." or something...

Personally I've never really met a gay guy (yet), but I met a bi girl once... and she acts just like any other girl... she's just not bound by gender roles.

As for what I'm proud of... well... people think I'm weird for not being proud to be an American... but as someone who knows a lot about our past... our country wasn't expanded through "pride-worthy" actions. *cough*

I say, have al lthe pride you want. I'm not proud to be an amercan, I'm not proud of anything really, so people can be proud for me. Show your pride however you want. I'm going to Pridefest with my best friend, and my parents are throwing a fit over it even though they know they can't stop me. Simply because they are hobophobic and I am not.

@Kaze-bear Gay people are just like everyone else. A girl I know is a hardcore lesbian and is very flambouyant, and she's so far out of the closet she's left the house, but she acts like everyone else, making gay jokes and whatever.

Why should one be proud of their race, religion, sexuality, whatever? I think it's good and everything that they take months to teach and open people's eyes about History, because History is the recording of the HUMAN actions in a chronological order, so really, why do they need to take pride in such social contructs? Everyone knows what they themselves did. You want to be proud? Adopt a kid, save someone from drowning, get on an awareness campaign, donate to a charity - then you'll have something to be proud of.

I personally think being proud of someone else's actions you didn't even influence in the slightest as somewhat stupid. Yes, it's good they did that, why don't you take it as a role-model and do something that will make you feel proud of YOURSELF? When you find something you share with that role model [race, religion, w/e] you're just vaining that your group [which means you're discriminating right there] did something that the other groups didn't do.

But that's just my opinion.

Originally Posted by Fabby

What I have to wonder is why you would even WANT to be proud of being white.
White people encompass a huge number of different backgrounds. It makes a lot more sense to be proud of, say, your English heritage than simply being white. There is no central heritage or culture in white people, which is why it really makes no sense to celebrate it. On the other hand, a Native American would have a fairly specific background.
And no, it's not really fair that white pride is still associated with automatic racism but in the past, that's how it was and people still sort of have that in their brains. We just have to deal with it. Like I said, there's not much reason to be proud of being white anyway.

In my happy, theoretical world where unwanted pregnancies and racism never, ever happen we don't need gay pride marches or black history month because everyone is equal. However, we live in THIS world where some people are unfortunately still oppressed. I think it's reasonable to have some time to stand up and not have to be afraid of who you are.
I think we're approaching a time when this stuff isn't necessary. I'd like it not to be necessary. But right now, it is.
As my boyfriend says, "What do you mean, white history month? The other 11 months of the year are white history month!"

Personally, I'm not proud of being white, per se. I'm proud of who I am, white is just a part of it, the color part. I really like how you explain white versus actual heritage or culture. You are EXACTLY right, and found the words and expressed them much better and in shorter form than I ever could on that particular issue. Thank you. Remember though, that following that line of thinking, most black people in America have the same type of problem. Black is just a color. Most Black Americans don't know exactly which culture/heritage/tribe they descend from out of Africa. And in my opinion they are, here in America, the biggest offenders to date of the "pride" issue of which we are speaking. Here in America, Asians are another that aren't specific. It would be more proper to clarify whether Japanese, Chinese, Korean, etc. I believe that a great many asians know their direct heritage, so the mistake here is Americans lumping them all together. It is an honest and mostly innocent mistake on our part though and not meant to offend.

I wish we could all live in that theoretical world of yours. It's one I've thought about myself. But we haven't come that far yet. I agree that we are getting closer, though. I will still disagree with having a month for a specific people. I also don't agree with the thinking of the 11 other months being white history. In my eyes, it's history, period. For anyone to think that other races weren't involved in American history is ludicrous. Why do we need a month to be taught specific extraordinary things that particulars blacks have accomplished? If their accomplishment was THAT important or their invention was THAT spectacular, we're going to learn about it anyway. I can understand mentioning that George Washington Carver was black, but even that stands to separate him and can be seen as an attempt to make him more important than he would normally be. You don't normally see it mentioned when an inventor is white, although it's usually assumed unless stated otherwise. But why is it necessary for us to know if they WEREN'T white? Example, the invention of the car and the plane changed our entire world, so we learn about it. We do not FOR EXAMPLE, need to be taught that John Doe, a black man, invented the shower curtain and be given that information just because he was a black man that invented something. His invention of the shower curtain is no more important and no more world moving than Joe Blow inventing the pot holder. I hope that made sense and gave an understanding of what I'm trying to say.(That example is just a figment of my imagination as I have no idea who invented the shower curtain or the pot holder :)).

Originally Posted by Kaze-bear

Hmm... I find a simple way to fix this for me. I put everyone at 50%. As I learn about them, they can either go up or down on how much I like them. I don't judge them first aside from something like "I wonder if they..." or something...

Personally I've never really met a gay guy (yet), but I met a bi girl once... and she acts just like any other girl... she's just not bound by gender roles.

As for what I'm proud of... well... people think I'm weird for not being proud to be an American... but as someone who knows a lot about our past... our country wasn't expanded through "pride-worthy" actions. *cough*

I like your fix. It really is a great way to start out with new people.

As for how our country came about, many parts of our history may not be very "pride-worthy", but it is how almost all past civilizations have come about, since the beginning of time. One group goes in and conquers another and takes over. The conquering nation is usually not very nice to the ones they are taking over either. Our take over wasn't any better or worse than many others throughout history. Someone will eventually come in and take over here and it won't be pretty when it happens. I just hope I'm not alive when that happens. I hate to think of myself at 80 having to take up arms and lug my old, tired, wore out body out to defend my home, family, and country. And if it came down to it, here on my own homeland, I'd do just that if it was necessary. It's not unheard of in past history for everyone, old, young and even children, to fight battles.

Infinitys Echo-
I think black pride comes more from surviving slavery and racism, not so much as pride of their African history. Or at least, that's what makes sense to me. Most blacks I've met don't seem to take pride in the fact that they're from Africa unless they can actually identify their African history. Someone stop me if I'm going totally off base.
Asian is particularly nondescript, but it's also rather difficult to tell one's country of origin just from looking at them. I don't think it's a bad term, just a vague one.

Well, I'm not sure where you live or how your schools are, but our schools are almost completely focused on European and American history. In comparison to how much time I've spent reading about old white guys, having time set aside to read up on other histories seems almost necessary.

Originally Posted by Infinitys Echo

First, I'm not your honey. Let's not go down that road.

Too bad, honey.

Originally Posted by Infinitys Echo

Second, I'm not "one of those people". Do you realize how racist that sounds? Probably not, because you're probably assuming I'm either white or straight, and as long as it's towards a white person, or in regards to homosexuals thinking anyone who doesn't agree with their way of life must be homophobic, it's okay to say and do. You just proved one of my subtle points. Thank you. If a white person were to say "you people" to any other person other than a white person, they'd get reamed, before that person even bothered to think it may have been meant in any way other than in reference to that person's race, color, religion, or sexual preference.

No. You're wrong again--more than like you didn't even read what I said did you? You complained that White pride was viewed as racist and I told you the exact reason why it's viewed as racist. The KKK and Stormfront keep pissing on it and wiping their asses on it, but you ignore them and go for the throats of people that have NOTHING to do with perverting that image. It's called cleaning up an image and it's easy to do if you're that serious about it, but it requires effort.

Also "one of those people" refers to anyone carrying the same mindset as you. You've been group by thought process.

Originally Posted by Infinitys Echo

Next, as to what white pride is, I have no idea. I didn't even address the true topic of this thread, which was pride. I moreso addressed the double standard that seemed to be presented by several people here in saying it was ok to have gay pride, and possibly other "pride", but white pride was not okay. Did you read my post? The first line stated if you give to one, you should give to all. My feeling on those types of pride is that they are all wrong. White, black, hispanic, gay, straight, Jewish, Christian, they're all wrong, in my opinion, at least in the sense that was being discussed here. I AM partial to having national pride though. All the others, in my opinion, only serve to separate us as a country, and I believe we, as a country, need to stand together. Our government may be corrupt, but WE, the people, are what make this country (USA), and overall, I still like to believe that WE are, in general, a good people. We as the human race should as well, but then, there isn't a threat from aliens or animals yet. Also, "we" do sort of stand together already as the human race, as "we" do try to govern human injustices against others, and help across the world during a catastrophe such as earthquakes and the like. Though there is much more "we" can do as a human race for others, we DO make a real effort.

You know what's worse than racism?

Color blind racism--a type of racism that's cool with you unless you don't play along with the-we're-all-white-on-the-outside acid trip. Color blind racism only got one thing right and that is that we're all human. We can all interbreed and we all have the same gooey insides. BUT we still have physical differences on the outside. People still still see racial characteristics and they still judge, bash and pick mates accordingly. Sad but true.

Originally Posted by Infinitys Echo

Why is there a need for any of those types of pride? The only reason I can think of is that person's or groups' own insecurities about themselves. They should learn to be secure in themselves and within themselves, then maybe they won't feel a need to scream it to the world. For all my faults, I'm secure in myself. I know I cannot change who and what I am, so I accept it. But I don't feel a need to scream it to the world and have "them" accept me. Accept me for who I am, or not at all-I don't care nor do I have a need for others approval.

There isn't a logical reason for something that's a valid human emotion. But if you're THAT stuck on making sure no one feels pride for their race, you should drug and kidnap anyone with that pride and lobotomize them so that can't feel it anymore. Problem solved right?

Another thing, pride isn't always accomplishment. Pride is the converse of shame, so when applied to race it's NOT about accomplishing being White or Black or Asian--I can attest to this because people have tried to make me feel ashamed for being Black (y'know, having distinct Black features).

I personally don't care until pride involves hateful messages to other groups hence my dislike for the people like the KKK and Stormfront.

Originally Posted by Infinitys Echo

I don't blame the minority-I blame the individual person.

I'll stop there, unless there's something else you'd like me to clarify. I actually leave a lot out of my posts that I'd like to express simply because they are usually a wall of text to begin with.

Huh. I could have sworn you previously generalized groups like homosexuals for simply being unashamed of themselves and unafraid of the disturbing bloodthirsty hateful acts committed against them.

Honestly, I myself hate how "white people" are mashed into a group just like "Hispanic people" are all one group. I come from England and German roots, but I'm only white. I take pride in my roots, not in the fact that I'm white and your not. (And if you're wondering about my avatar, this color goes better with these shades, I think) I think true pride comes from celebrating who you are now and where you came from.

Pride months are to acknowledge these peoples part in American history and, really, to apologise for the wrongs that were done to them. However, these wrongs were aided by African tribes selling out other tribes, and people of all races reinforcing stereotypes. Also, there not technically "races" or even different "species". That outdated term simply increases the rift of peoples who are essentially same. We are more different form someone of the same color as us than someone who has different skin, but similar genes.

Originally Posted by Cheya

Too bad, honey.

I didn't think it was allowed on here to do things such as this, so I'll make sure I do this right and formally ask that you not call me that again. And since you chose to continue along this line specifically designed to cause anger, also called name-calling, it's not worth even attempting to answer anything further from you.

Thank you for keeping things civil Infinitys. Cheya, I'll request the same from you. Please keep things civil and if Infinitys doesn't want to be called honey, I'd recommend you not call her that to prevent things from getting more heated. :yes:

@Infinitys: Although we have rules about flaming and harassment, calling you 'honey' isn't really offensive to most people. To you, yes, it may be, but to an outsider, no. If things were to proceed further, then you could technically report her for harassment. Currently I wouldn't do much but tell her to stop calling you 'honey,' as I did above. If things proceed and she continues to harass you, please let me know.

From the rules:

Flaming/Harassment

• Flaming is the deliberate insulting of others by posting offensive or inflammatory messages targeting a user or group of users. This includes sending other users abusive Private Messages, post stalking users to bring up arguments in the forums, and directing rude comments to other users no matter what the cause of it may be.
  Everyone who takes part in something like this will be punished. Warnings will be issued and if severe enough, users will be banned. This is at staff discretion.

I don't see any of the meaning behind it. It won't matter because in less than a century whichever specific person happens proud at the time and acts like it will be nothing more than a name on a stone on the ground, if that.

But maybe I listen to too many musicals...

"Pride goes before a fall."

One of the few truths from the bible that i still hold dear to my heart.