You can not legislate feelings. People can give a courteous description of their belief system so not to offend but then it would be untrue. I don't understand the point in hiding offensive beliefs, but I also don't see the point in pretending to respect those beliefs. If a Christian girl condemns paganism because she believes that her religion justifies it then I would challenge those beliefs. It's not pretty and very un-'p.c' but its honest and gives us a way of understanding each other, which is better then sitting at a keyboard and thinking one thing and typing another.

I think there shoulld be a line of tolerance. Sure if it's shoved up someones throat about pagans and witches than I woulld get angry and testafy for it. But if noone like that is doing anything like that towards you they are just saying something or they are just saying they believe it you should just let it go. Say why you think this about that and that you would like the person not talk about that because it makes you uncomfortable. BUT If it's a debate on something like that you shouldn't just say no it's this now listen to me about it. I have alot of people in my school like that and because I don't have a common religion but my own personal belief I am an outcast even though I have never said a word about it to anyone because they say that if you don't go to church you're going to hell. Now i know some of you think this way but I do go to church because I am curious about all the other religions and my preacher says it's not about church but union and the will to learn on your own and maybe in a group as well but it's nothing to do with church. I also believe that if you are truely unhappy with tolerating another religion than pardon my language but you can just sit your dumb ass in your bed and stay there learning about your religion because there are people all around you who aren't christian or your religion that don't even say they aren't because of fear and trust me there would be so many less wars than now if people did that cause most wars are caused by religion intolerence.

Something I would like to point out. Tolerance is based completely off of perspective. Humans choose to take offense/insult to things that are said. Words are meaningless unless given value by the humans that the words apply to. Therefore, tolerance would not be an issue if humans gave the intolerant arguments no meaning. You choose to make something intolerant on an individual basis. It is not dependent on the one who is supposedly intolerant to you. It you seeing them as intolerant.

Just something to think about :P

Good point. Someone can say something that sounds like intolerence but could just be stating something. BUT if someone flat out doesn't tolerate someone because of what they believe that what is the point in meeting someone. I understand that people say things but if you don't even bother with someone or try to understand why they feel the way they do than that's not even intolerence. It's just being annoying. I would say find out why someone thinks the way they do and try to solve it or understand it, don't just ignore it. I have a friend she can't stand people who aren't christian but she is my friend and understands why I'm not a christian. And I even take her advice even if it's a thing that just christians do it helps me learn about the religion and helps me understand her more.

I'm not sure. I've just been seeing what the few people who post are saying it's a good debate I mean there are more than two sides to it and that is one way to know when it's good.

I am in total agreement with Shalandriel about this issue. I am a very open minded person, and many times I find myself wanting to yell at people who say very intolerant things. I should know better though, because no matter how much they'll get preached at about what they believe and they should try and be more tolerant, most of the time their opinion won't change. In many of those cases, the two people need to have an "agree to disagree" kind of agreement, because arguing over the issue is going to get you nowhere. There are cases where people can be changed, but most of the time, you just end up yelling at a brick wall. I'm all for people putting their opinions out there and having a friendly debate over issues, but getting into a fight over it isn't going to help anything in the long run. And in many cases it makes that person become even more against you side of the argument.

Sorry, I just moved and havn't got internet hooked up yet, I'm posting from my blackberry which is just slow for this site. It seems dead though, the topic seems to be fully ravaged and all points discussed.

ok it was fun while it lasted it's a great topic though

Im not sure if this is dead per-say...or if what Im about to say has been touched on yet or not(Im a little too tired to reall all the posts, sorry), but here goes:

Ive noticed, over the past few years that no matter how many religions we tolerate, with their customs, holidays, etc. We are forced(those of us who do these) to put our own holidays and stuff on the side(Christmas being the main one). Seeing as the government in all its "wisdom" has decided we need to be tolerant of other religions, but completely ignore the fact that OUR traditions, and beliefs are being pushed away further and further every passing year. Now, it is "politically incorrect" to say Merry Christmas to ANYONE it seems. Personally, I think that is one of the biggest intolerances Ive noticed about anything. Dont get me wrong, I dont mind seeing, or even hearing about, the practices of other religions, I just would like to be able to not have people chew me out just for saying what I was brought up being told it is the right thing to say.

Someone wants to celebrate their major religious holiday? Welcome to it. Just do NOT tell me to stop singing my christmas carols(not that I do anyways) when I am walking around doing so. You want to have your religious symbols and icons out on you yard? Go for it. As long as I can promote my religion in the same way(not that Im overly religious...it just grinds my gears to no end).

Sorry...I know it kind of sounds like a rant, which it off handedly ended up being, but it is also some observations about major intolerances Ive noticed.

Ok I understand where your coming from but there are flaws. Christmas is not a completely christian holiday. None of the symbols from it have anything to do with christ's birth. The date isn't even his birthday. My mom is a pagan and I'm a personal religion but I still celebrate christmas AND yule with my mom on the 25th. Christmas was made because the pagans, who had claimed the day first, celebrated it first and the christians (As selfish as alot can be, not all though) didn't want their children to become a part of it so they took the day away and decided to celebrate Christ's birth, even though the man hadn't even celebrated it himself when he was alive and prolly didn't even want it.
I understand where you're coming from and I'm not saying get rid of all your beliefs but it's typical for others to chew you out for something like that because they were raised in another way than you. By complaining bout their so call intolerance you are being pretty intolerant yourself. I was born in a devided family and my mom is a pagan dispite her mother being a christian and the rest of that side of the family cept her grandmother who was pagan and taught her some of the belief. I feel blessed to have lived without my dad but still have him care about me and want to live with me. I also feel blessed that my family has two different uptakes for things. I have a personal belief and I don't believe in religions personally sure but I actually have a mind. I'm not brainwashed from birth like most are my mom told me I should find my own way to believe but I should study the others and find the one that calls to me. I'm still uber young but I have studied as many religions that I can think of and even some I've never heard of before and I've made my own belief that I've never heard before but it's more of a mix of quite a few religions in all. I think that the fact that I've lived the way I have I've grown more of a tolerance for other religions and so even though everyone says merry christmas I say it back or I say happy holidays and the same with ever other season's greeting from other religions.

Here's the thing, Draciolus: No one, ever, is telling you that you can't celebrate Christmas. You can sing your Christmas carols, you can have your Christmas trees, you can wish people a Merry Christmas. You can do basically whatever you want, just like everyone else.

But that's not what you Christians want. You want government-funded Nativity scenes in the middle of town. You want expensive, obnoxious giant freaking Christmas trees in the middle of the mall. You want everything saying 'Merry Christmas' from late October to early January. You want to wish people a Merry Christmas and then, if they happen to wish you a happy Chanukkah or Kwanzaa or Yule or whatever back, you create a major scene and then go tell your church group about how someone tried to test your faith. You get all up in arms if you see a giant menorah beside or in place of your precious tree, and talk about how the government shouldn't be allowing such an overt religious symbol in public, and how having to walk your children by it is nigh-persecution.

In short, not allowing you to completely control the Winter season religiously or completely squash other religions is not intolerance. You're worth no more than I am, your religion is worth no more than mine is, and just because your winter holiday is more commercialized than most, does not mean that it is all-important.

Exactly christians say they are being taken away from their holiday because others celebrate another religious holiday. It's because that's how they were raised. From most other relgions others completely get rid of the tempt of others by isolating and some kill those that try to leave. But Christians are the only ones I've met that were so obsessed with degrading other religions so others will join. They say any other religions go to hell but you know what if that's true than heaven must be boring cause more than half the world isn't christian.

The only thing that I guess I kind of forgot to mention, which is the basis of my point, is that in schools, they took out the annual singing of christmas carols during assemblys close to christmas. All because the school board says it is rude to the students who dont celebrate. That may be so, but it doesnt mean they cant have a second activity for said students to do while everyone else is out singing their traditions. I guess I kind of missed that little bit in my original post.

Edit: And also I forgot to state that I am not, and never was, religious in any way. Its just something that Ive noticed out in public. They arent "Christmas Carols" they are now "Holiday Songs".

Yeah why wouldn't they be. You complain about how your religions aren't given enough time but they still have more time than others. They stopped it because even though the majority is christian alot of people aren't no matter what and if they have a second activity it's basically saying that they aren't aloud to be with other kids. They stopped it because they don't want anyone to feel left out or for anyone to be an outcast just because their family believes in something else. You act like christians don't get any bit of show for their holiday but they do other people are just trying to get their religions a little show as well because it's not really very fair that one religion get all the show while the rest of the many religions are stuck to fend for themselves when it comes to trying to add to the numbers of those in that relgion. You might not know it but alot of other relgions celebrate christmas as well as their own and still you complain. It doesn't matter if you're very religious or not you are still making a humungus deal out of it and it's rude because you're pretty much saying that noone can celebrate their holiday without asking permission and even than they aren't allowed to without having to celebrate yours.
I'm not saying anything bad about you but the way you're saying it makes it sound like that. You really have to take into account what others believe not just what you believe, that's everyones problems for the most part with that.

Separate but equal. I've heard this before.

You having your carols is not worth singling out certain children, making a spectacle of them, punishing them (intentionally or not; so few resources would be dedicated to the other religions that their "second activity" would be busywork). And not every religion would be accounted for. And what of the non-religious? This is the reason we don't teach Creation myths in public schools: the beliefs are so varied, it would be impossible to do to things fairly. And if you can't do it right, you shouldn't do it at all. You want to hear Christmas carols? Buy a CD. There are hundreds of holiday compilations out there. Or, better yet, pay a visit to a private Christian school. I'm sure they still have them. Schools shouldn't be shaming a minority for the amusement of the majority.

Then why are you so biased in this issue? I cannot imagine for the life of me how someone would view Christianity as so important and all other religions as just "alternatives" if they had never belonged to Christianity. Also, you referred to Christmas, the holiday celebrating the birth of Yeshua, as *your* holiday. How exactly is it your holiday if you're not Christian? Oh, wait! DIBS ON CHANUKKAH!

Christmas was originally for yule but because it wasn't christian, and originally the ideals weren't the best, they christians took it from them. I will tell you this if it was their religion originally with the same ideals as the pagans they would have been fine with it. The Pagans would have tried to either take it or make their own version yes but you know the debate of religoins is so complicated I could be here all day proving everyone and myself wrong with certain things. The only difference is I'll admit what the flaws of my side of the debate are.

No, Molly, it wasn't. Christmas has nothing to do with sacrificing a wild boar to a Norse god. The date was chosen to a) be 9 months after the Annunciation (spelling corrected; thank you everyone for not making fun of me XD), as would make sense, and b) to coincide with a pre-existing Roman cultural festival, but the meaning of it originates with Christianity. Please stop spreading falsehoods.

It's not I've looked it up heard it on a show and was told in church about it.

...Proper sourcing FTW.

Anyway, this is getting off-topic, so stop before I get yelled at.

ok geez talk about intolerance

How am I being intolerant? You're misrepresenting history. I don't care if you claim the same religious umbrella I do, I'm not going to just hush while you do so, especially since you're falsely representing pagan history and a holiday that Asatru still celebrate.

Because most of them aren't about Christmas.

No mention of Christmas. Or any holiday. And you're upset because people aren't calling them Christmas Carols when they're not even about Christmas? OH THE HORROR!

Auld Lang Syne
Baby It's Cold Outside
Deck The Halls (Oh hey, this one mentions Yule, but that's definitely not Christmas so you better not sing it anymore just to be safe)
Frosty the Snowman
Jingle Bell Rock
Winter Wonderland

No I know there are multiple holidays that are celebrated on that day but from what I'm told was that it was the pagan one, which the christians were closer to from what I've READ, that made them celebrate his birthday on that day.