@Pandur Your ignorance astounds me.

Not only is that totally rejecting the fact that millions of men and women in relationships are abused every day around the world, it's also a sweeping statement that could be applied anywhere else. I or any of the others could just as easily say "you shouldn't be dominating your pet or child in the first place," but we don't. Why? Because it's an invalid argument, as people have done and always will do it.

...and while this discussion is indeed titled "Hitting your pet/child," I would like to point out that Wikipedia classes child and spousal abuse under the same heading as different forms of domestic abuse.



YOU might consider it off-topic, but I consider it a valid part of any argument on conditioning. However, I wouldn't blame you, if you've never been in an abusive relationship, for not realising that one part of spousal abuse IS indeed conditioning; letting the spouse know where their boundaries are, no different to how you might teach a child or a pet. Indeed, spouses who are abused are often degraded to the same standing as a pet or a child, or potentially even less. Yes, they already know the basics, like not peeing on the carpet ( >3> ), but it's still conditioning nonetheless.



Yes - punishment DOES involve asserting superiority. So does abuse. You see the fine line there? It's a VERY fine line, isn't it?

Our point here is that there are MANY ways to punish a child or an animal without resorting to violence. For example, I've seen a fantastic father who vlogs on Youtube (Shaycarl, but his vlog channel is shaytards). His children are well adjusted, they're confident, they're happy. In a recent video, his littlest girl was punished for disobeying her mother by being put in a time out. She learned her lesson.

This is my argument. The use of violence can never be justified as a means of teaching, no matter how small. This is because believing that you have the right to assert yourself physical over another living creature is a gross misuse of power and an infringement on the rights of the abused party. Yes, animals DO have rights, which is why I use the term "living creature." Unless, of course, anyone here would like to argue about that? We all seem like animal lovers, so hopefully we can all agree on THAT point at least.

Alright, something I've been wondering all along - the only example of punishments you've given so far has been "a pat on the bottom." I have to wonder just how hard this is done. Too soft is no deterrent - the animal may think you are petting them. You must be putting some force behind it. Am I correct in assuming this?

The point I'm trying to make is based on ethics. The very moment you allow an act of violence, no matter how small, to be acceptable, you open up the gateway to greater forms of abuse. It's chipping away at the thin end of the wedge.

There are many people out there who believe, similarly to yourself, that their means of physical discipline is correct. Let's look at the different types. At the bottom of the scale, arguably, there is a person like you, who may believe solely in giving their animal a sharp tap. A short way up from that is a person who frightens their animal by shouting at and/or chasing them. A short way up from that is a person who deems it acceptable to kick their pet. So on and so forth, until we reach a person whose mode of discipline is to all-out beat their animal.

Here, we have a sliding scale of abuse. We also have each individual person, such as yourself, believing that their own means is acceptable and, indeed, the right way to condition an animal. You know where you draw the line, but what about for other people? When you take a subjective "alright-for-me-and-my-pet" standpoint, you must be open to allowing other people to argue their own subjective opinions, which you, from your argument, deem unacceptable and would always deem unacceptable under all circumstances. THAT is hypocrisy. In addition, how can you enforce or support your own belief when really, your belief isn't too different from theirs at all?

I stand by my argument. Attacking an animal or a child is never, in no way acceptable.

I think it is cruel to hurt people, let alone animals. Children and animals both need to learn things, but abuse is not the answer. There are much better ways of handling this, such as (for children) taking away privileges, and for animals, being a little intimidating, but not hurting the animal, yes I watch Dog Whisperer.

Not for a million bucks. The only time I would hit a dog or a kid, is if I was in a life or death emergency.

Absolutely not. People who hit their dogs and kids are just SO selfish. They think "this dog just peed on my shoe! SPANKING TIME" or "why did that kid just embarrass me in front of my friends? I want to bruise him." That is not ethical thinking. That's wrong.

I think they should care less about themselves, and wanting to get revenge, and think of more logical punishments than pain and suffering.

I laugh when people think that physically abusing an animal will make them listen better.

Wow, I didn't get round to replying here forever o_O

@Pandur So basically, the extent of your argument is "I agree wholly with what you're saying, but I can still hit my pet if I want because I still don't think I'm doing anything wrong." And that's fine, of course. I doubt anybody is ever going to convince you to change your habits, and you're entitled to your own opinion after all.

However, I would like to point out, as you bring the matter of the law into your post, that it is precisely because of uncertainty in the law where violence is concerned that greater forms of violence are allowed. As it is nearly impossible to draw a line where "unacceptable" and "acceptable" meet in terms of violence, in some cases a person who does what you do may be arrested for their abuse while someone who does things far more extreme wouldn't. Is that fair? No, and it's because violence of any sort is deemed "acceptable, BUT" that it happens.

I'm not going to argue any more here, because the point in the conversation has been reached where we'd just be going round in circles. Good luck to you.

Hitting an animal or a child is not ok. I think either way, they wouldn't understand why they are being hit. Or if the child did understand why, then they would take it out on an animal or another child.

Beating a child is not okay however there are times where there needs to be a light tap. Nothing that actually hurts. I do not believe in hurting children or pets at all. I'm a huge animal rights person (no, not like those crazy people at PETA) and do not support any kind of mistreatment of pets. I have worked in some pretty messed up cities where animals come in on their death beds because someone had beat them/burned them/made them fight/etc. It's a very sad thing to see. I could get into other things but that's not the topic of the thread.

As for with children, most the time you can get the child to behave without touching them so there really is not a reason to ever hit a child hard enough to hurt. There are systems of punishment that work on rewards and taking things away if they do not behave and I find it works just as well with a child as it does with a dog.

The reward/take away system works really well on my cousin and he's pretty hard to handle at times. His dad hits him pretty hard which just makes him angry and he does not listen to him because of that. He listens to my sister and I more because we use the reward/take away system and never hit him. He's only two.

Beating of children and pets is wrong. Being overly strict can hurt their development, scar the child for life, and cause the animal to come to view you, not as a respected, trusted, and loved superior, but as a threat. I believe in timeouts, loud stern voices, and corporal punishment only if the infraction is major. Say the pet is attacking the neighbor's cat, or the child stole or hit. Then spankings. But for animals, the punishment has to occur either during or immediately following the misbehavior. Children can be explained to, but animals have short attention spans.