I may not be the most logical person at times, but since I grew up in New York, I've known all the pain and suffering that has happened because of 9/11. I'm still a kid. I remember just moving right when the towers were struck. I didn't live extremely close to ground zero, but all I had to take was a train, then transfer to another one and walk a few blocks to the twin towers. The first time I ever saw the towers face to face I was just awe struck as any child would be. Just a couple of years after the attack I met a woman that worked there. She was catholic.
Now that I think about it, she might be against the mosque. But the deal is so many people of different races died in that very building. All of them probably had different religions. Obviously. And it was a shock that those towers were destroyed by a terrorist attack from the middle east. So what if the attack came from that part of the world. It doesn't mean you should hate the people in that part of the world. It's just really sad.
I'm not against the mosque...But I don't think they should build it without building churces that accommodate other religions. They should really just make a freaken museum, have little sectors for each religion and place the names of everyone who died by the attack in there. Don't make a damn religious center without thinking about all the other families from different religions, that lost their family.
What do you guys think about that idea?

In 2002 the Pentagon opened at memorial nondenominational chapel on the site where the plane crashed into the pentagon. Muslims have been praying there daily for eight years. This whole anti mosque protest is turning into an anti-Islam protest. I really think these protests are tasteless given the current state of affairs in some Islamic nations. Islamic extremists that were responsible for the 9/11 bombings have continued their campaign of murder in Islamic nations such as Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan. Every other week innocent Muslims are killed from suicide bombers or car bombers.
We need to hold a united front against terrorism, not against Islam.

I think that the whole debate is silly. The building isn't even technically a Mosque. As said above, it's an Islamic cultural center. And they have a right to build it there according to the first amendment. They're going to be 2 blocks from Ground Zero. And they're going to have a memorial for the victims of 9/11 (which includes the non Islamic victims who died). This isn't something for people to get their panties in a bunch over. The Mosque is there to educate people more about the Muslim religion. Just because some radicals did those attacks on 9/11 doesn't mean all people of the Muslim faith are like that. The Islam religion is actually a very peaceful one from what I've seen in my personal life of people who practice Islam. Just because we were attacked by Islam terrorists doesn't mean all people who practice the Islam faith are terrorists.

Originally Posted by una

We need to hold a united front against terrorism, not against Islam.

Thank you, thank you, thank you! That is such a true statement.

By the way, if anyone here has a way to catch older episodes of the Daily Show, you should watch the 25th's episode. They did an interview with one of the leaders of the anti-mosque protesting in Tennessee, and it was...well, infuriating, but hilarious. She's a nutcase, there's no doubt about that, but her ideas are echoed by pretty much every person who is against mosques being built across the country, just to a lesser extent. They're bigots, plain and simple. It has nothing to do with honouring a memory or respecting the victims or anything like that, they just hate Muslims. I hate to say this, but the people who lost loved ones in 9/11 and are protesting the mosques are bigots, too. I know they hurt, but if the terrorists had been Christian rather than Muslim and someone tried to build a Christian community center two blocks away or, hell, a megachurch right on the site, you would not have heard a fucking peep out of them.

Originally Posted by Lordi

So there is heated debate over the building of a mosque and muslim cultural center near ground zero. Personally, I don't have a problem with it. There were muslim victems durning 9/11. Regular, everyday people who had jobs, went to school, and paid taxes. These people were just doing their daily routine like everybody else when a bunch of fanatics killed them. There are people opossed to the building of the mosque, saying that it is insulting to the victems. I bet if a group of catholics wanted to build a church near ground zero, there would be no outrage. But that is just my opinion.

Muslim Victims of Terrorist Attack, September 11, 2001

well i dont giv a shit either way but bringing other religions in is different. Lets face it not all muslims are bad in fact my bestest brother/best friend is muslim but thats not the point the thing is Al-queda was muslim so all muslims are prosecuted.

Many many people view this mosque as very disrespectful and a slap in the face. They think that the muslims in irag and afgan are giving each other high fives. Also this bullshit about it being 2 blocks away not being a big deal is kinda a lie. I mean any one who lives in nyc or has walked the streets knows 2 blocks is nothing and that it would be easiliy visible from g-z.

Also lets face it a mosque is not a cultural center. Its a church for muslims to come and worship their faith. Nothing wrong with that but still lets not hide behind the clouds here.

The last point of view that many people will have that are very against the mosque is that muslims celebrate ramadan this year on the end date of sept 11 or 12. A few ppl may believe that they are celebrating g-z

oh yeah and the last last thing about there already being a mosque around there already. No one cared because it didn't matter because no one new about it. Ignorance is bliss

well i can see both sides of the story really I mean muzzies don't deserve that because of 1 groups mistake. its kinda like how the catholics had the inquisition. now ppl dont like catholics hmmmmmm.

oh yeah this is the last thing >< As americans we are free to hate this mosque and it is sure to face attacks im sure but it is against american constitution to say no. Shits gonna go down if that mosque is turned down

Originally Posted by red rose

Many many people view this mosque as very disrespectful and a slap in the face. They think that the muslims in irag and afgan are giving each other high fives. Also this bullshit about it being 2 blocks away not being a big deal is kinda a lie. I mean any one who lives in nyc or has walked the streets knows 2 blocks is nothing and that it would be easiliy visible from g-z.

Except that...it's not. If you actually look from where the community center would be, you cannot see Ground Zero. It's too far away and has too many buildings in the way.

Also lets face it a mosque is not a cultural center. Its a church for muslims to come and worship their faith. Nothing wrong with that but still lets not hide behind the clouds here.

Which is why it's not a mosque. It's got a worship center, but so do hospitals; that doesn't make them churches and not hospitals. The only people "hiding behind the clouds" are you and those like you who keep calling it a mosque. If I wrongly call you a duck, are you in denial for not referring to yourself as a duck? Also, community center, not cultural center.

The last point of view that many people will have that are very against the mosque is that muslims celebrate ramadan this year on the end date of sept 11 or 12. A few ppl may believe that they are celebrating g-z

Then those few people are stupid, because Ramadan lasts the entire month.

oh yeah and the last last thing about there already being a mosque around there already. No one cared because it didn't matter because no one new about it. Ignorance is bliss

No, ignorance is...ignorance. If you don't know enough about the situation to know that, hey, there was already a community center in the area before which was destroyed on 9/11 which means that the choice of location was not based on its proximity to Ground Zero, then you shouldn't be speaking out on the subject at all.

well i can see both sides of the story really I mean muzzies don't deserve that because of 1 groups mistake. its kinda like how the catholics had the inquisition. now ppl dont like catholics hmmmmmm.

There was no singular "inquisition". For example, the Spanish Inquisition was the worst, and is the one most people think of, while the German Inquisition was actually more humane than the local courts, and many accused of heresy or witchcraft or whathaveyou were found not guilty. And if people dislike Catholics, it probably isn't because of the Inquisition.

Also...did you just call them "muzzies"? Lolwut.

oh yeah this is the last thing >< As americans we are free to hate this mosque and it is sure to face attacks im sure but it is against american constitution to say no. Shits gonna go down if that mosque is turned down

No, it's not against the Constitution for the people in charge of approving building sites to tell someone, anyone, that they can't build somewhere. It's simply a matter of their reasons, and as there is no non-religious reason to not allow it, that they were discriminating based on religion would be obvious. But considering that a mosque not too far from here was denied the right to continue services and the board got away with it by saying that it was about parking issues, even though two churches down the street from it had less parking space and more members and one of the board members was holding a Bible the whole meeting and when they voted it down everyone stood up and clapped, no, shit wouldn't go down.

jeez dont be hatin i didnt say I was against or for it for that matter I was just pointing out what some people, mainly the red necks in my community think about it

"Hatin'"? I'm not hating anything. You stated falsehoods, I corrected them. If you cannot deal with that, you should either be more informed on the issues you involve yourself in, or not take part in debates.

I still say that Ground Zero and a 5 block section should be turned back to nature.

i like tht idea

Originally Posted by Stardragon

I still say that Ground Zero and a 5 block section should be turned back to nature.

Oh? and where are all the people in that area going to live? In mud huts? It's clear that you hate modern civilization, yet you still use a computer.

Lordi that's a little excessive :)
Stardragon is just being idealistic, that's all. It's 100% unrealistic that an inner city space that large would have nothing built on it, especially in a city where space is as such a huge premium that skyscrapers are the only option, but despite that it would be a nice thing to see happen.

Originally Posted by jellysundae

Lordi that's a little excessive :)
Stardragon is just being idealistic, that's all. It's 100% unrealistic that an inner city space that large would have nothing built on it, especially in a city where space is as such a huge premium that skyscrapers are the only option, but despite that it would be a nice thing to see happen.

Thank you jelly. Making it a park for peace would help everyone.

No, it wouldn't.

Why do you say that?

Because it's taking steps backwards, instead of going forwards.

No it's just a step sideways. Going backwards is the old way. Going sideways is just taking a break. Besides the asphalt on a road is close to a 130 degrees on a 100 degree day.

And when it rains, would you like the people of New York to get stuck in the mud?

I never agree with Stardragon on anything, and in fact I'd have to disagree with you, Jelly, because he's made similar statements many times before that essentially come out to, modern civilization is evil, everything modern humans do is horrible, and we should either do things the way our ancestors did them or not at all. Look back through the BP thread. But I have to agree with him on one thing, sort of:

Originally Posted by Lordi

Because it's taking steps backwards, instead of going forwards.

Regardless of what we're doing, we're taking a step forward; it's just a matter of whether or not it's a positive one. Progress doesn't move in one direction, either. Think of the organic/locavore/heirloom movement -- an undeniably positive thing, and definitely progress, but it used to be the norm long ago, so instead of trying new things, we're borrowing from the past. I don't really agree with Star's idea (it's supposed to be memorial for the people lost on 9/11, not what would amount to a new park, and it would be impossible to keep clean and safe and crime-free), but getting more in touch with nature is not a negative thing by any means, and there definitely need to be more green spaces in big cities.

Philomel~ This debate has nothing to do with the BP thread. Jelly was only making a statement. Although, Stardragon's post was idealistic there is still no need for obnoxious replies. I believe that was the main point of her post. End of story. You can still disagree with Stardragon on whether the sky is blue. This forum is a headache. Pity, because I actually enjoy debates.

On the topic of a mosque, cultural center, what have you. I am not against it being built.

Lordi, making a nature area in an extremely polluted city isn't a step back. xD
It's a step forward, in the health and care of the citizens of New York and the preservation of this planet. I know it's silly, like rain forests just being worthless ground occupying needed space and providing us with material for the latest gadgets, but unfortunately that's the case.

As for the mosque, I don't really think the muslims are giving each other high fives in Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Turkey, Albania, Morocco or any other majorly populated muslim country. The fact of the matter is that the extremist Muslims hate their counterparts who live in the Western world almost as much as they hate Christians, they see them as traitors, because they move to these Christian countries and coexist peacefully.

Which is why the mosque isn't a bad idea. It's not for the Muslims who hate America, it's for the muslims in New York, who want to show that they're not against the American culture. It's for those who want to show their sorry for what happened.

It's hard for people to understand the viewpoint of Muslims when they aren't even given the chance to converse with any or have a few drinks with any. Living in the Netherlands, I've come in contact with Muslims on a day-to-day basis. I know that they don't mean any harm. I live within walking distance of a mosque, and I've never heard any hate speech. Furthermore, I know that many Muslims are in these Western countries because they've turned on their government, went against their beliefs or something similar, that mean they had to get out of the country. I went to school with a 17 year old girl who left Iraq with her little sister because her family was killed and she would have been prosecuted to. It's those things that open your eyes.

It is not a mosque, it is a muslim cultural center. And it is being built as a memorial to the muslim victems of 9/11, not because they are apologizing because they didn't do anything.

It's not a muslim cultural center, or a mosque. It's a community center, much like a YMCA.

Personally I think that the people who are arguing that putting a "mosque" (which is not what the building will be anyway) near ground zero is "insensitive" to people who lost loved ones on 9/11 are just taking advantage of people's pain as a way to push a hateful agenda. Why don't they just come right out and say what they're really thinking, which is along the lines of "I hate Muslims because they are different from me, I don't care about religious freedom for any one but people who practice my religion, and I think that all Muslims should get out of my America"? And then they hide behind "free speech" and try to claim that people who are supportive of the "mosque" are trying to restrict their freedoms somehow. What freedoms are those exactly, the freedom to take away others' civil liberties? I don't see that in the Constitution, you guys.

I have no problem with this at all. The extremists that took out the Towers does not mean all of Islam supports terrorism. It's the same reason why I am not angry with Islam when they blew up the 1,000 year old Buddha statue in Bamiyan. The Taliban do not represent all of Islam; that's just a particular sect.

A lot of people think "Islam = terrorism," and I don't feel that is true.