Recently in the UK the government have been passing a bill to raise the flat rate of tuition fees from the current base of £3,500 to £9000 per annum.

Naturally, this has caused furor, because it means a couple of big things:

1. Students will be crippled with debts of £30-50k at the end of their university (college) course. (This probably equates to to upwards of $75k.)

2. The Liberal Democrats, who promised they would protect students from rising fees, are turning and voting with the Conservatives to pass the fees. The Lib Dems attracted a lot of youth votes (including my own) because it seemed they would aid our interests. They haven't.


That's the background for you. Now, our discussion topic:

Students all over the country have been demonstrating against the planned hike in fees. However, their protests are increasingly descending into riots.


Examples:

1. During the first big protests in London, the Conservative headquarters were broken into and students climbed to the roof, off which they hurled objects, including a fire extinguisher.

2. Within the last week, students protesting again in London descended on the car of Prince Charles and his wife the Duchess of Cornwall, smashing the royal windows, throwing paint over the royal bodywork and (allegedly) poking the royal person with a stick.

These incidents have led the largely unsympathetic media to condemn the student protestors. The weight of their grievances has been lost amid the backlash over the violence.


My questions to you therefore are:

1. Do you believe that violence and escalation of protest is ever a helpful means to an end?

2. Do you feel that violence in protest will lead to better or worse resolution of the issue, or has less impact than other forms of protest, such as peacful sit-ins or hunger strikes?

3. What do you think is the role of the police and state intervention in stirring up tensions? (The police have also been condemned for attacking several innocent bystanders not partaking in the violence.)

4. Do people ever have a right to infringe on the safety or rights of others to prove their point?

Argue and enjoy, my friends. :vicky:

I think you're seeing the answer to your question :P When people resort to violence and pointless destruction, they lose all credibility, even with those who might otherwise have fully supported them. I think this is a perfect demonstration of the saying "actions speak louder than words". Undoubtedly, the actions of the police have caused a lot of this, but people are not going to see that. All they will see is how you react. If you react with calm and dignity and love, you will earn the respect of even those who disagree with you. But if you react with undirected or misdirected anger, you're just going to make enemies. A good example of this was the G20 protests back in July. There were numerous accounts of police brutality, and there were even reports of female protesters and journalists being threatened with sexual assault by cops, but what was reported on? The destruction caused by the protesters. It's not right that people only look at one side, but that's the reality activists face, and it's one they have to deal with appropriately.

Originally Posted by Philomel

I think you're seeing the answer to your question :P

LMFAO. You know me, Phil... I answer my own questions in this forum an awful, awful lot XDDD

Haha. Well, you might as well. It's likely the most intelligent answer you'll get ;)

Originally Posted by Philomel

Haha. Well, you might as well. It's likely the most intelligent answer you'll get ;)

:heart:!


EDIT: Here's a link on the subject of the role of the police in this, if anyone's interested.

This interests me because I saw the coverage on the news multiple times and at no point was there any indication that the car was damaged, just that Camiila's window was open for some reason, and someone allegedly poked at her with a stick, it wasn't captured on camera though.

I will say that for me, no, violence is NEVER a means to an end, what is it going to accomplish? Well, we know the answer to that actually, war...we're a nasty aggressive race and it doesn't take much to start us fighting, and it's always a case of, "you bash me and I'll bash back, harder". And yes, the original reason will always be lost in the bloodshed that follows.

Idiot people like that son of the Pink Floyd guy, being so monstrously disrespectful as to climb up onto The Cenotaph and swing from the flags...yeah, that is the image that will remain in the public conscience because of this dabarcle. Making people think why should students deserve any kind of decent treatment if that is how they're going to behave.

Mob mentality scares the shit out of me if I'm honest, because it takes so very little to turn something peaceful into carnage, I feel strongly about LOT of things, but I'd never, ever go on a protest, because I like my skin in one piece thanks >_>
But then maybe it's people like me who should be going on protests then, because I'm not a hot-headed impetuous "youth" who's gonna take it into their head to do something really bloody idiotic in the heat of the moment...

With regard to the police, and that guy who got a fractured skull...well. The old double standards rearing their ugly head there I think...fine for protesters to use violence, but not fine for the police to have to do the same to try and control the situation...

And finally, no, it is absolutely NOT ok to put other people in danger to prove a point. If you can't make your point safely, wisely and intelligently then you shouldn't be trying to in the first place. Putting other people lives/rights in danger makes you worse than the people you are protesting against in my opinion.

I agree with Jelly, violence only begets violence. I think there could definitely be more creative ways of getting that message across, in the United States, tuition is taking a hike and students over here are going to suffer more as well, luckily for me I will be graduating and only need to pay for one last semester which will be my internship.

VAT is so freaking high that life over there is ridiculously expensive, so why further exacerbate the problem?

1. Do you believe that violence and escalation of protest is ever a helpful means to an end?

Haha, no. Violence RARELY solves anything.

2. Do you feel that violence in protest will lead to better or worse resolution of the issue, or has less impact than other forms of protest, such as peaceful sit-ins or hunger strikes?

It has a impact, but a negative one. Sure a peacful sit in protest might not get far but you have to be patient and give it a try, no one really appreciates it when you shove signs in their faces and yell at them. XD

3. What do you think is the role of the police and state intervention in stirring up tensions? (The police have also been condemned for attacking several innocent bystanders not partaking in the violence.)

They should stop the riots if the riots are harming any innocent bystander or are damaging public or private property.

4. Do people ever have a right to infringe on the safety or rights of others to prove their point?

No, they don't. Sure money is a stressful topic but its not taking away your freedom or pursuit, it makes it a harder mountain to climb but you still can climb that mountain so I find it pointless to get crazy and harm other people because of that.

@Jelly: Wow, I'm surprised to see your esteemed self in here!! I didn't even realise you were from the UK! *Brit high five* =D

I dunno, on the BBC it said that the windows were smashed and it showed the car splashed all over with paint, so that's my source there. As a pacifist, of course I agree with you that violence is never a means to an end. I also find it interesting, though, moving out from the moral question and looking at the bigger kind of picture. Taking these incidents and comparing them to historical riots.

Obviously we can't say yet what the outcome will be here... I personally find it really sad that the students are so discrediting themselves, and losing sight of their actual grievance in their anger. But if you look back at some particular causes in history, violence and militance played an important role. Take the WSPU campaign for women's rights. Then the huge amount of riots that took place in the 18th(?) century - Rebecca, Luddites, Swing, and all that other stuff we did at GCSE. Rofl. Violence was an aid to their cause. Do you think maybe that times have moved on?

I totally feel the same about protesting myself, unfortunately. I have thought briefly about campaigning for things in the past, like most politically minded people I suppose, but to be honest I'd be scared to... >< It can just go downhill so quickly. I really admire people like George Bernard Shaw who had the courage to go out and campaign even when things got bloody. I'd be terrified.

Omg, speaking of the Cenotaph did you see the people who burned the giant poppy this year? D: That really, really upset me. But what was even worse for me was the signs they were holding and the chants they were making. "Our dead are in Paradise, yours are in Hell." Things like that. It made me feel sick... how can people believe such awful, malicious things about other humans...? @[email protected]


@Locke: I've heard bad things about the tuition fees in America too. Have there been any protests or riots over there?

I didn't know people had burnt the poppy, no :( I rarely ever watch the news because it's full of depressing and horrifying stuff like that. The only reason I saw the protest reports was because my sleep schedule is screwed so I was awake all night and just had the TV on in the background, so I got to see the same report about 4 times as the stuff in the wee hours just rotates.

You saying that about past protests is interesting, but in all honesty I'm not sure how valid a medium the typical protest is these days, because let's face it, we in our Britishness tend to find all that anger and shouting a bit embarrassing, and with the options available to people in this digital age, can't they come up with something a bit more imaginative that will capture people's attention in a good way?

Originally Posted by Lorika

@Jelly: Wow, I'm surprised to see your esteemed self in here!! I didn't even realise you were from the UK! *Brit high five* =D

I dunno, on the BBC it said that the windows were smashed and it showed the car splashed all over with paint, so that's my source there. As a pacifist, of course I agree with you that violence is never a means to an end. I also find it interesting, though, moving out from the moral question and looking at the bigger kind of picture. Taking these incidents and comparing them to historical riots.

Obviously we can't say yet what the outcome will be here... I personally find it really sad that the students are so discrediting themselves, and losing sight of their actual grievance in their anger. But if you look back at some particular causes in history, violence and militance played an important role. Take the WSPU campaign for women's rights. Then the huge amount of riots that took place in the 18th(?) century - Rebecca, Luddites, Swing, and all that other stuff we did at GCSE. Rofl. Violence was an aid to their cause. Do you think maybe that times have moved on?

I totally feel the same about protesting myself, unfortunately. I have thought briefly about campaigning for things in the past, like most politically minded people I suppose, but to be honest I'd be scared to... >< It can just go downhill so quickly. I really admire people like George Bernard Shaw who had the courage to go out and campaign even when things got bloody. I'd be terrified.

Omg, speaking of the Cenotaph did you see the people who burned the giant poppy this year? D: That really, really upset me. But what was even worse for me was the signs they were holding and the chants they were making. "Our dead are in Paradise, yours are in Hell." Things like that. It made me feel sick... how can people believe such awful, malicious things about other humans...? @[email protected]


@Locke: I've heard bad things about the tuition fees in America too. Have there been any protests or riots over there?

There are definitely protests and voiced opinions, but no violent protests as of yet, if they keep raising the fees, there could be more consequences and who knows what may happen if students are pushed to hard to come up with more money.

Originally Posted by jellysundae

You saying that about past protests is interesting, but in all honesty I'm not sure how valid a medium the typical protest is these days, because let's face it, we in our Britishness tend to find all that anger and shouting a bit embarrassing, and with the options available to people in this digital age, can't they come up with something a bit more imaginative that will capture people's attention in a good way?

I'm really glad you brought that up, because I almost brought it up myself! Back in the 1930s the grandfather of the modern BNP (the BUF - British Union of Fascists. Not quite so sugarcoated, eh?) led by Mosley tried to stir up rebellion and trouble. The group led a lot of violent riots and caused a lot of trouble, but the Brits of the time just turned up their noses in distaste and went back to their tea and crumpets. "Awfully bad form, eh Stanley?" "Quite, Sir George. What what. Knickers."

And that's a very good point - there are so many different forms of making your voice heard these days, why can't they utilise them? :yes:

(Though that said, I'm not exactly getting on the blower, starting a Facebook campaign or writing a sternly-worded letter to David Cameron myself. I was really worried at first, but as I'm Welsh I'm now protected thanks to the Assembly. I think I'll actually vote Plaid Cymru in the next elections, they've done me such a good turn over this issue.)

Well now, what you've touched on there is another human trait. People like to make a fuss about something and demand that something be done, but in general most people want that something to be done by someone else :lol:

I'd say the average body is infinitely more likely to go along with something organised by someone else (especially if all it entails from them is signing a petition or similar), than expending a whole bunch of time and effort in organising something themselves...

But you're right, things like Facebook campaigns are a bloodless means to get your point across. Especially because of the numbers involved. Have a successful protest march and if you're lucky a couple of thousand people might turn up. Start a successful Facebook campaign and if you're lucky a few hundred thousand people might take part in it...and it's numbers that count with things like this.

If, instead of a protest the students had organised a flash mod who did something poignant but non-violent, then they'd have got just as much media coverage. Particularly if they did something cool because videos would end up on Youtube and the positive message of their protest would reach far more people, and, those people would be receptive because the students hadn't caused any kind of trouble.