Absolutely.

"Women are incubators men plant their seeds of life in" persisted for centuries upon centuries upon centuries.

I have never heard of anyone getting an abortion 'just because they felt like it.' I've never heard of anyone getting an abortion knowing full-well that they were going to get pregnant to begin with. I mean think about it: Abortion is one of the /most/ expensive, /least/ invasive, and /most/ painful procedure for a woman to get. It makes no sense that a woman would purposely let herself get pregnant just to abort when there are contraceptives and other birth control methods that are far more effective at preventing a pregnancy, and are more easily affordable. Not to mention accessable.

Both of those reasons you gave are /exactly/ why people get abortions. There is so much that you have sacrifice monetarily, personally, emotionally, and spiritually to carry out a pregnancy. Neither abortion nor keeping a pregnancy to full term are 'easy ways out.' Both can be dangerous and draining in every aspect of your life.

I just don't see why because an abortion seemingly eliminates long-term hardships from another person's perspective (and believe me, many complications can arise from having an abortion), why it deserves degradation as a valid option? If you ask me, it's a smart choice. It may not be for everyone, but for some it works. And to me, it just seems unfair for any person to degrade someone elses' difficult decisions as something to be less valued or taken seriously.

(The emboldened parts are relevant to the argument I am about to present, so be sure to keep them in mind.)



That's the gist of Syra and Keyori's sympathies.

I would invite anyone who finds this line of argument acceptable to watch this video, though if you want to skip to the relevant part go ahead and move the bauble thingy ahead to 2.30. For those of you who can't watch for whatever reason, I'll go ahead and make a transcript of the most important part here.

It's easy and understandable to feel like abortion is a terrible, dark thing. It's murder, it's destroying the souls of tiny little babies, it's crushing innocent potential life!

No. By your argument, it's more than that, because it isn't the crushing of innocent potential life which you have a problem with.

The moment you accept the concept of abortion and then decide that women SHOULD feel guilty or upset about aborting, even subconsciously expecting it of them, you are aiding and abetting all of those people who want not only to ban it entirely, but to punish women who abort. You suggest in your posts that abortion is women who are lazy with their contraception being let off the hook. You're suggesting that women who are lazy with their contraception should be punished, whether by keeping the baby or by feeling dreadful or traumatised that they didn't. You have presented strict parameters in which abortion is acceptable, and all other situations offend your sense of decency.

"I'm pro-abortion, but women shouldn't be glad that their babies have died or anything. That's horrible." That's cowardice, and that is not pro-choice. That's not pro-woman. That's not pro-anything, except suffering.

Definitions which I saw online: Pro choice= thinking the option should be there as a last resort, or for extreme situations. Pro Abortion= Thinking that abortion should be a quick easy fix for people, who don't feel like having a kid.

Not my personal opinion, just saw it repeated over and over on youtube, and thought I'd bring it up. (I was trying to have an intelligent debate with someone over the issue at the time... on youtube... it was a mistake.)

That's what a bunch of people were saying. I can't be sure if that's an actual political distinction though.

So basically, "I'm defending my right to look down on other women."

So basically, "I'm pretty sure this definition is going to be incorrect and uneducated, but I'm going to post it here anyway to create the possibility that certain users will take me at my word and wander out into the world with heinously misinformed opinions about what it means to believe what they say they believe."

This is just a snippet, so feel free to ignore it if you like. But, taking from Lorika's given definitions, if we must separate the two, I would do it as follows:

Pro-choice: Supporting the legal right of women to obtain abortions if it serves their best interests.
Pro-abortion: Supporting the social right of women to obtain abortions if it serves their best interests.

I guess from now on, I'll be calling myself pro-abortion.

@lorika: What I meant was that this is what a lot of people generally believe. I was restating things I've heard. I didn't say that this was in any way reliable, nor did I say it was a good definition. Your attack there is rude and unfounded, and I love how you try to call someone for looking down on others in a post who's tone is completely judgmental, and holier than thou.

@phil: Yes, you have a very good definition there. It's more akin to how I see it.

I didn't insult you, dude o___o Sorry if you thought I was trying to get at you. I apologise - I wasn't.

I am having trouble wrapping my head around the reasoning you are using to post information like that. If you don't think it's a good definition, then why not post one that you DO think is good?

Also I would not agree with the assertion that it is what "a lot of people generally believe." Until Phil's comment, I've never heard of someone who is pro choice describe themselves as pro abortion; typically it is used in the context of someone who is making a pro life argument and is trying to characterize someone who is pro choice (not necessarily the pro choice argument, but rather demonize the person who holds that position as a 'murderer' or 'baby killer' or other inflammatory remark).

I find that really interesting, actually. Seeing as we don't have any of those protests and all over here I'd never heard pro-abortion used as a means of demonising the practise, so when I used it in my post it was simply what it was - pro-abortion. No propaganda attached. weird seeing as apparently i am a fascist with no soul eh

I also like how all the "pro"s I threw up have encouraged people to redefine their own beliefs.

Me? I'm PRO JUSTICE, BITCH *BAMFS THROUGH THE FUCKING WALL*

Well I guess that just means that it's extremely important to consider the context under which such a term is utilized. ;P

Yeah, and to examine the agenda of the person doing the talking. Thankfully it just plain doesn't have those connotations over here. unlike ur butt, which has connotations everywhere. fat ones.

@Lorika: I understand these kinds of debates get a bit heated. :) No problem.

In fact I've heard it from both sides, though more from those calling people murderers. The people I met who were calling themselves that, were very... flippant about the whole thing. I don't talk to them anymore.

And the point in bringing it up was that I've always been taught to consider ever viewpoint in a debate, even those I consider stupid, or even crazy. I was taught that if any point, or piece of information was not being considered, I should bring it up. I'm still not very good at showing my actual meaning in type though, so it comes across as me being an ass. XD

I have an auditory processing disorder, which for some reason effects my ability to communicate through written word. In person I can interpret and use body language to bridge that gap, because I'm hyper visual. just something to note, when I'm talking. And I apologize for any misconceptions.

I've always interpreted "pro-abortion" as "pro-all women getting abortions regardless of anything, no babies. NONE."
And Pro-choice as more of a middle ground "aka the woman's right to CHOOSE regardless of situation."
And pro-life as: "Abortion is wrong, there are no exceptions."

Yeah, I agree that abortion shouldn't be used as a birth control, however, I do believe it's the mother's right to control and protect her own body. Pregnancy can mean a woman might lose her job (I don't care that it's not a legal practice to fire a woman for being pregnant, BUT IT HAPPENS), she also has to make different choices in her medications, in her daily routine, or even with the food she eats. Being pregnant and having a child is a very invasive process, that doesn't end when the baby is born. Even if the child is adopted, she may still have the scars, and have lost her job, no longer able to support herself, but because she no longer even has the baby "it's all her fault" for losing the job and becoming unable to support herself...even though she didn't want the baby in the first place.

I also don't think anyone was attacking anyone, at the very least, not on purpose, and if you're taking it personally, I suggest you just leave the thread, because we do not need any drama here. So, take a deep breath, mmk?

@Sarofset Since monstahh brought it up, I have to say that I agree you're being a little sensitive >< I didn't say anything "heated" at all. You went ahead and insulted me over a neutral statement. Yes, it questioned why you said what you did, but that's no different to anything else that's said in a debate.

You've just explained you have a problem communicating. I understand that. I also understand that you've been upset a lot recently and all, but regardless, please don't take it out on me.

@Lirika: You were putting words in my mouth. Saying I meant things I didn't mean. Where I'm from that's rude. I have no problem letting it go. Do the same.

Let's keep this calm and civil, everyone. The point of a debate isn't to insult one another or start fights - It is to rationally discuss the topic at hand.

It seems that quite a few people here have taken comments personally, so please take a minute to think and calm down before typing up your posts. Let's not have to lock the thread.

I have heard people say that they don't bother with birth control because they'll just get an abortion if they get pregnant (Most of these people are under the age of 17 as disconcerting as it is to hear that coming from a young person) None of them know about the risks that come with the procedure and they don't take it seriously. I think my biggest problem is that teachers at my old high school would encourage girls to have abortions rather than go through mother hood and yet they told them nothing about the actual procedure or the expenses involved.

Due to personal spiritual beliefs I would not have an abortion but I prefer that people be allowed to make decisions for themselves instead of having the government choose for them, however I would like it if more people were educated about sex and pregnancy. Technically the schools are supposed to do this but they do a poor job of it in my district and I feel that parents rely too much on the schools to teach children life lessons.

Edit: For me it's a case of anti-government interference.

I really appreciate this point of view. Thank you. :)

Not really sure what I said merits a "thank you" but you're welcome.