momochan: Because you're homeschooled and Quasi is trying to get the experience of homeschoolers becasue he wants to learn more about it.

*sigh* I am enrolled on an online school program. I do all of my subjects and do what I am assigned to do....happy? -__- sorry I just don't know how to describe it. It feels like regular school, but without all of the kids, moving to all of the different classes, and a million teachers teachers.

Momo told me that I could post this and that this is why she does online school

Well, the schools around here aren't that great and I need more help in math and the teachers wouldn't be able to help me out as much as my mom has too.

I was home-schooled all through middle school, and I see no real issue with home-schooling as a practice if it's done for the purpose of the parent wanting a more active role in their child's education. But yeah....with the boom in home-schooling I can see your point about it being the parent wanting to have more control over their child's life. I was home-schooled because in elementary school...some...stuff happened to me and it ended up I hadn't really been getting the same amount of education as other children. I was being locked up in a room for being hyperactive, being violent because of my hyperactivity, and being distracting in class because of being hyperactive. And this went on for about 2 years, and I'd be in that room for a couple hours at a time...so I ended up missing a lot. Home-schooling was my mom's way of helping me regain the years I'd lost in elementary school.

Another reason for home schooling that I don't think you mentioned is religious conservatism. Parents not wanting their children exposed to all the "bad influence" of public school and whatnot but probably don't have enough money to pay for private school.

I don't think home-schooling is necessarily a bad thing though. I know not everyone's motives are always so pure, but it's not the case for everyone.

Originally Posted by quasievilgenius

Yeah I got to senior year of high school and had completed my math requirements (all our school requires was math through Algebra 2 or three years of math. Since I did Algebra 1 in high school, I had to take Algebra 3/Trig to fulfill the three maths requirement) and my advisor tried to get me to take Calculus, to which I responded "I'm going to college for ACTING. I DON'T need calculus, and the requirements clearly state that I only have to take 3 maths. I did that. I'm not taking another math."

I was always the "way too well-informed for my own good" student. I knew the rules inside and out. Like dress code regarding hats. A teacher asked me to take my hat off at 7:50. I replied "the student rulebook dress code SAYS: hats are not to be worn DURING SCHOOL HOURS. School hours begin at 8:05. When the bell rings, I'll take my hat off." She dragged me around everywhere trying to find a rulebook (it wasn't actually listed in the rulebook, it was listed on a dress-code addendum sheet inserted INTO the rulebook, as the rulebook said NOTHING whatever about hats) and by the time she'd found a book and realized she NOW had to find some other sheet...the bell was ringing, I took my hat off and said "okay I'm going to class now bye."

I remember spending most of high school doing pre-algebra because of my math disability. I spent so much time on the fractions section. :/

Originally Posted by TheYaoiButterfly

I was home-schooled all through middle school, and I see no real issue with home-schooling as a practice if it's done for the purpose of the parent wanting a more active role in their child's education. But yeah....with the boom in home-schooling I can see your point about it being the parent wanting to have more control over their child's life. I was home-schooled because in elementary school...some...stuff happened to me and it ended up I hadn't really been getting the same amount of education as other children. I was being locked up in a room for being hyperactive, being violent because of my hyperactivity, and being distracting in class because of being hyperactive. And this went on for about 2 years, and I'd be in that room for a couple hours at a time...so I ended up missing a lot. Home-schooling was my mom's way of helping me regain the years I'd lost in elementary school.

Another reason for home schooling that I don't think you mentioned is religious conservatism. Parents not wanting their children exposed to all the "bad influence" of public school and whatnot but probably don't have enough money to pay for private school.

I don't think home-schooling is necessarily a bad thing though. I know not everyone's motives are always so pure, but it's not the case for everyone.

Yeah I did everything in my power to avoid the whole "some people do it because they're really super-conservative christians and don't want....etc." but I believe blackbird and pixie did bring those up at least in passing.

Originally Posted by quasievilgenius

Yeah I did everything in my power to avoid the whole "some people do it because they're really super-conservative christians and don't want....etc." but I believe blackbird and pixie did bring those up at least in passing.

But what people don't realize is that for home schooling to really work you need a lot of money to pay for private extra-curricular activities (if there are no community ones that you don't need to pay for) or classes that parents can't teach. That's how students end up with such bad people skills. They stay home all day and study and don't have the socialization. They kids that do are kids with jobs or people well off or lucky to have other means for socialization (such as the one poster who mentioned her sister got those through her parents exchanging other things instead of money).

I don't think it's really possible to avoid talking about extreme religious/political indoctrination when discussing homeschooling, unfortunately. There are homeschooling organizations in every state that exist purely to perpetuate the idea that the godless liberal public schools will irreparably damage a child's moral compass. :roll:

Originally Posted by Doomfishy

I don't think it's really possible to avoid talking about extreme religious/political indoctrination when discussing homeschooling, unfortunately. There are homeschooling organizations in every state that exist purely to perpetuate the idea that the godless liberal public schools will irreparably damage a child's moral compass. :roll:

I know this, and those are a lot of the cases that I've actually witnessed, so I know that it happens. But at the same time, if you try to open up a discussion on home-schooling and you obviously put that out there as an argument AGAINST home-schooling, then you're really just inciting attack. I only barely brushed against the topic, and approached it from the standpoint of developmental psychology, and backed up my original stance, and I've already had to defend myself more than once against people claiming that I'm being sickeningly ignorant, even when my stance has changed since my initial argument and I've done everything in my power to be respectful. So it's better for me as the OP to let someone else breach that topic, and try not to give it an undue amount of attention.

I already know about the people who home-school their children because they have an irrational fear of the outside world (my step-brother is actually a preacher in a Messianic Zionist Christian Church...they literally live in a holler back in the mountains and preach that technology is the work of the devil, that illness is not to be treated with medicine, but with prayer and a rebuke [i'm not kidding, when my dad had to have a foot of small intestines removed, he showed up at the hospital with someone from his church while I was visiting dad and 'rebuked' the medical condition that caused it...oddly enough he still had to have surgery, so...yeah] and all kinds of insanity. I'm pretty sure all the kids back in that little stretch of nowhere are kept in the area and home-schooled, I don't believe I knew more than 1 or 2 people from my high school who were from there) so it's slightly less productive for me personally to bring that particular instance up, as I'm more interested in finding out about situations and circumstances where homeschooling DOES work, because obviously it must.

Originally Posted by quasievilgenius

I know this, and those are a lot of the cases that I've actually witnessed, so I know that it happens. But at the same time, if you try to open up a discussion on home-schooling and you obviously put that out there as an argument AGAINST home-schooling, then you're really just inciting attack. I only barely brushed against the topic, and approached it from the standpoint of developmental psychology, and backed up my original stance, and I've already had to defend myself more than once against people claiming that I'm being sickeningly ignorant, even when my stance has changed since my initial argument and I've done everything in my power to be respectful. So it's better for me as the OP to let someone else breach that topic, and try not to give it an undue amount of attention.

I already know about the people who home-school their children because they have an irrational fear of the outside world (my step-brother is actually a preacher in a Messianic Zionist Christian Church...they literally live in a holler back in the mountains and preach that technology is the work of the devil, that illness is not to be treated with medicine, but with prayer and a rebuke [i'm not kidding, when my dad had to have a foot of small intestines removed, he showed up at the hospital with someone from his church while I was visiting dad and 'rebuked' the medical condition that caused it...oddly enough he still had to have surgery, so...yeah] and all kinds of insanity. I'm pretty sure all the kids back in that little stretch of nowhere are kept in the area and home-schooled, I don't believe I knew more than 1 or 2 people from my high school who were from there) so it's slightly less productive for me personally to bring that particular instance up, as I'm more interested in finding out about situations and circumstances where homeschooling DOES work, because obviously it must.

Under their teachings I would be dead.... :(
If it weren't for modern medicine and surgery I would have not made it this far.
I believe in God and I am a Christian. I even went to a private school. Now, I disagree with evolution, however we did learn about it in science class (...it was biased though obviously) so it wasn't exactly omitted from education. I have a hard time with science so it could be explained hundreds of times and it would just whoosh over my head... (my syndrome causes both math and science disabilities... my brain just has a terribly difficult time comprehending such things)

My stance on medical intervention is that God created the knowledge that was discovered. Letting people die simply because its 'natural' does not mean that their life is over. I fully believe that God placed the better surgeon there to perform surgery on me because I was meant to live. Without medical procedures I would be dead and without my growing shots I'd be terribly short. I believe its rather evil to have the means to save someone and throw it away :(

under their teachings, my dominant arm would have been useless from about the age of 12. in addition to breaking it pretty badly, I also had a shit doctor, so four weeks after my arm broke, I had to have surgery to re-set the bone.

Originally Posted by PixieSunBelle

My stance on medical intervention is that God created the knowledge that was discovered. Letting people die simply because its 'natural' does not mean that their life is over. I fully believe that God placed the better surgeon there to perform surgery on me because I was meant to live. Without medical procedures I would be dead and without my growing shots I'd be terribly short. I believe its rather evil to have the means to save someone and throw it away :(

At risk of straying off topic this is what I believe. I'm one of those "Everything happens for a reason" folks. I have to because that's where I draw my hope from.

At Catholic school we learned about evolution and creation and the Church believes that God created man in His image and from there we evolved...that the people that God created didn't look the way we do now...which is similar to my beliefs. The Catholic Church doesn't believe in literal interpretation of the Bible except for the Last Supper thing.

My homeschool/unschool education was rather secular. The internet served as my guide. Also bought some good books from Barnes & Noble and the local library. Plenty of resources available.

Originally Posted by Doomfishy

I don't think it's really possible to avoid talking about extreme religious/political indoctrination when discussing homeschooling, unfortunately. There are homeschooling organizations in every state that exist purely to perpetuate the idea that the godless liberal public schools will irreparably damage a child's moral compass. :roll:

I wouldn't go so far as to say the schools are godless and liberal but most of the teachers at my highschool definitely were, teachers encouraged the seniors to vote for Obama, they preferred to hand out condoms rather than educate about the consequences of sex and everything was about going green. There's really no way to avoid running into people who shove their biases down other peoples throats and no such thing as an objective teacher. I think public school is a bit better than home school for most kids because they'll meet a wider variety and be forced to make their own decisions about things. The important factor to remember is that teacher and parents are human and there for fallible and if you end up with a poor one on either end it's bad, but the more teachers you have the more you can learn about the way people work and how to judge what's right or wrong.

Originally Posted by Faulkner

I wouldn't go so far as to say the schools are godless and liberal but most of the teachers at my highschool definitely were, teachers encouraged the seniors to vote for Obama, they preferred to hand out condoms rather than educate about the consequences of sex and everything was about going green. There's really no way to avoid running into people who shove their biases down other peoples throats and no such thing as an objective teacher. I think public school is a bit better than home school for most kids because they'll meet a wider variety and be forced to make their own decisions about things. The important factor to remember is that teacher and parents are human and there for fallible and if you end up with a poor one on either end it's bad, but the more teachers you have the more you can learn about the way people work and how to judge what's right or wrong.

She wasn't saying that public schools are ultra liberal and godless, that's just the view of many of these religious people who home-school their kids because they don't want them exposed to public school where not all the students and teachers are religious.

Originally Posted by TheYaoiButterfly

She wasn't saying that public schools are ultra liberal and godless, that's just the view of many of these religious people who home-school their kids because they don't want them exposed to public school where not all the students and teachers are religious.

I understood her post, I was just saying that public school over home school all depends on where you are, yes some people do believe that public schools indoctrinate the youth and in some cases it does seem that way but parents try to do the same thing as teachers and teach children in the way they best see fit according to personal biases. May point was that teachers are human so they can't always be trusted to be better for a kid than ultra religious homeschooling institutions. I always think it's best for people to be exposed to a wide variety of situations so that they are forced to make decisions for themselves. The only point public school has over home schooling is the fact that there is more than one person to learn from so a student can learn better how to read people and get more information from them. I wasn't really disagreeing with her, just sort of expanding on her point.

See, my public school was kind of the other end: I lived in a rural mountain community, so most of our teachers were actually super-christian, and managed to find ways to sneak their agendas in.

Originally Posted by quasievilgenius

See, my public school was kind of the other end: I lived in a rural mountain community, so most of our teachers were actually super-christian, and managed to find ways to sneak their agendas in.

A lot of it has to do with location. Rural schools in the south will probably be more traditional than inner city schools.

Originally Posted by Faulkner

A lot of it has to do with location. Rural schools in the south will probably be more traditional than inner city schools.

That's the Bible Belt for you.

Originally Posted by quasievilgenius

That's the Bible Belt for you.

Yeah. Although you'd think in the Bible Belt they'd be a bit more accepting of Catholics but my Baptist neighbors don't even realize I'm a Christian. I went to a school out side of my community district for a reason...

Alright a few nitpicky things: Statistics can be swayed and actually made up. No way could all homeschool sutdents be surveyed in order to create those stats so i don't think they should even be used. After cutting out the stats, I didn't see much argument there.

Uhm, excuse me? XD I think that's the silliest statement I've ever heard. Just because not all homeschooled students can be surveyed doesn't mean the stats are incorrect. My first reference for stats tested almost 12,000 families who homeschooled. The second one is a study where over 7,000 adults who were homeschooled were surveyed and at least 5,000 of them were homeschooled for longer than 7 years. The last statistical reference listed several different studies with similar results with anywhere between 1,000 and 30,000 students/families surveyed. I find it hard to believe that so many studies were done, including one by the Census were consistent yet because not EVERY homeschool family was surveyed you're going to throw them out? That's pretty ignorant if you ask me.

Arguments can be whatever you want them to be, but if you don't have back up then you don't have an argument.

As far as other arguments for homeschooling, many homeschooled children have better self-esteem and they don't get bullied and aren't handed access to drugs, alcohol, and sex in middle/high school which many parents like a lot better. Homeschool students also spend less time doing the same amount of work, which means they can take extra courses or finish early very easily. For example when I was younger, my mom had me learn spanish and also latin and greek routes along with Bible, Music and Art History on top of Math, Science, English and History. I didn't feel overwhelmed and in the end I got a more rounded education because I was able to study so many different things. Right now I'm in a cyber school, I guess much like Momo, but I still have time to study programming, economics and logic/debate outside of school.

Alight so I know many people who have been home schooled and they've mostly been on homebound instruction programs by their school districts as they've been too sick to go to school. While many have learned more being on such instruction, they were lonely. Some school systems allow homeschooled and homebound and online instructed students to participate in their extra curricular activities which I wholeheartedly support. I think being able to be with one's peers, in both religious and secular settings is very important for their social growth.

You're talking about kids who were sick being lonely...? Most homeschoolers get involved with co-ops, or groups with other homeschoolers but what you're talking about there sounds like it was totally unplanned and therefor poorly thought out.

There are also tons of different curriculum made by different publishers. I can think of at least 5 different math programs I used throughout the years I was homeschooled to find the best fit for me, or in my case the most challenging. I did go to public school for a year and I chose to come back home because the social stress of being picked on, made fun of, having to look a certain way to fit in, and everything else was just simply too much to handle on top of schoolwork which wasn't hard, but it was lengthy and tedius. I hated being forced to get up early and go to school everyday, and now I don't have to. I still see my friends and it's not as often but the relief of that social pressure was worth it.

Another reason for home schooling that I don't think you mentioned is religious conservatism. Parents not wanting their children exposed to all the "bad influence" of public school and whatnot but probably don't have enough money to pay for private school.

A lot of schools are very liberal, so I can understand why these people do not want their children in that kind of situation. But quite frankly it's the parent's responsibility to educate or have their kids educated so it's their choice. I myself, was raised in a conservative family but I was always exposed to liberal values as well and I picked conservatism because it made more sense, not because my parents picked it.

I wouldn't go so far as to say the schools are godless and liberal but most of the teachers at my highschool definitely were, teachers encouraged the seniors to vote for Obama, they preferred to hand out condoms rather than educate about the consequences of sex and everything was about going green. There's really no way to avoid running into people who shove their biases down other peoples throats and no such thing as an objective teacher. I think public school is a bit better than home school for most kids because they'll meet a wider variety and be forced to make their own decisions about things. The important factor to remember is that teacher and parents are human and there for fallible and if you end up with a poor one on either end it's bad, but the more teachers you have the more you can learn about the way people work and how to judge what's right or wrong.

Teachers are supposed to be about education. If they would rather hand out condoms than educate the kids on safe sex then that right there signals to me there's a problem at the school. Also, encouraging students to vote one way or the other is quite simply wrong. They're using their status as a teacher/mentor to help sway a group politically. My parents taught me their values, and why they thought their values were correct and why they thought other values were not correct but they aren't telling me to vote one way or the other because quite frankly it's none of their business and they know that. Typically parents want what's best for their children which means intentions are good while teachers may not have the same intentions because they get paid to do what they do while parents, don't.

See, my public school was kind of the other end: I lived in a rural mountain community, so most of our teachers were actually super-christian, and managed to find ways to sneak their agendas in.

Sneak their agendas in? The year I spent at public school, I had quite a few Christian teachers, and they would offer things like allowing students to come and pray with the teacher before exams but it was always optional and never offensive. Even though my history teacher was Christian we spent less time on Christianity as a religion than we did Islam or Hinduism.

One last thing is a lot of religious groups use homeschooling, not just Christians. I know a Muslim family who homeschools because their daughters were picked on in school. I also know many Mormons Homeschool as well. Many people are considered 'wackos' for their religions but that doesn't mean homeschooling should be categorized in with religion. In many cases homeschooled children receive a better education, so why should anyone be allowed to sit there and deny these children an advantage they may receive. It's not like the parents are being lazy, my mother dedicated every morning and afternoon to teaching my sister and I the way she thought we ought to be taught. If some parent teaches racism to their child, then well it's their right to do so even if others don't think it's right because to put it bluntly, no matter what you teach someone will disagree. It's when there is a lack of teaching and knowledge learned it's considered abuse. I'm not standing up for those who teach racism, only standing up for the rights parents have to teach their own children. If it seems there are a lot of religious people in homeschooling, maybe look at why that is. Maybe we should do something about religious children getting picked on, rather than forcing them back into school. Not saying anyone here is trying to force them back in, but there are many states trying to make homeschooling illegal, in fact it's mostly liberals who want to make homeschooling illegal.

Sneak their agendas in? The year I spent at public school, I had quite a few Christian teachers, and they would offer things like allowing students to come and pray with the teacher before exams but it was always optional and never offensive. Even though my history teacher was Christian we spent less time on Christianity as a religion than we did Islam or Hinduism.

You spent a year in public school: I spent 12, with a father who was a high school teacher for all 12 of them, 10 of them in the public school system.

I spent 2 years of preschool in a private school, and spent the first two years of elementary school at three different schools because we were moving a lot. I spent the next 10 years in the same county, up through graduating high school. I heard scientific lessons prefaced with "people who believe this are going to hell, but..."

Come to think of it, lessons about other religions were treated in the exact same way. When religions were studied, more time was spent on Christianity than the other religions, and the others were prefaced with similar sentiments, and taught from an "I have to teach this because separation of church and state makes me teach them, but the people who don't follow Jesus are going to hell."

The demographics of our region were: like...maybe one catholic family...the rest were Baptist and Methodists, with a couple families who went to Holiness Churches. Keep in mind, where I come from there is 1 church for every 14 people, even though every church has congregations larger than 20 or 30.

So, you're right. They didn't sneak it in. They were pretty blatant about it.

Originally Posted by quasievilgenius

You spent a year in public school: I spent 12, with a father who was a high school teacher for all 12 of them, 10 of them in the public school system.

I spent 2 years of preschool in a private school, and spent the first two years of elementary school at three different schools because we were moving a lot. I spent the next 10 years in the same county, up through graduating high school. I heard scientific lessons prefaced with "people who believe this are going to hell, but..."

Come to think of it, lessons about other religions were treated in the exact same way. When religions were studied, more time was spent on Christianity than the other religions, and the others were prefaced with similar sentiments, and taught from an "I have to teach this because separation of church and state makes me teach them, but the people who don't follow Jesus are going to hell."

The demographics of our region were: like...maybe one catholic family...the rest were Baptist and Methodists, with a couple families who went to Holiness Churches. Keep in mind, where I come from there is 1 church for every 14 people, even though every church has congregations larger than 20 or 30.

So, you're right. They didn't sneak it in. They were pretty blatant about it.

I spent a year in a brick and mortar public school, but I haven't been homeschooled since 8th grade, so it's not like I'm a stranger to indoctrination. Some schools may have problems but I think the problem of political influencing is worse than religious influencing, and I do have reasoning for this.

Teachers almost everywhere are unionized, and of the dues that unions give to political parties, 98% go to democratic party. The democratic party then turns around and gives money and entitlements and the like. You can disagree if you like, I'm not going to debate this because for 1 it's not really on topic and 2, I know there's proof out there but I don't feel like running it down for this side note. Anyways, my point is that Teachers could personally benefit from influencing students to vote one way or another, while religiously influencing someone does not benefit the teacher really in any way. So while it may be annoying to hear about it in class, the intentions of the teachers I think are a bit different.

And just so everyone knows, I'm going to college to be a Math teacher. ;) But I'm not into indoctrination, which is why I'm doing math. haha.

Where did you find that statistic, Hayzel? --Because without proof, I'm going to disregard any statements you've tried to support with said evidence.

I've found one that lists only 89% of the money that goes towards anything political towards democratic candidates.
And not 98% of ALL dues going to political endeavors. In fact, administration and representation (of the union) take up a LOT of the money that unions take in.

Edit: Also, I actually think it is on topic, part of the reason some kids get home schooled is because parents fear their kids being exposed to ideas they may not agree with.
Political parties can be included in that, IMO.

Originally Posted by Hayzel

I spent a year in a brick and mortar public school, but I haven't been homeschooled since 8th grade, so it's not like I'm a stranger to indoctrination. Some schools may have problems but I think the problem of political influencing is worse than religious influencing, and I do have reasoning for this.

Teachers almost everywhere are unionized, and of the dues that unions give to political parties, 98% go to democratic party. The democratic party then turns around and gives money and entitlements and the like. You can disagree if you like, I'm not going to debate this because for 1 it's not really on topic and 2, I know there's proof out there but I don't feel like running it down for this side note. Anyways, my point is that Teachers could personally benefit from influencing students to vote one way or another, while religiously influencing someone does not benefit the teacher really in any way. So while it may be annoying to hear about it in class, the intentions of the teachers I think are a bit different.

And just so everyone knows, I'm going to college to be a Math teacher. ;) But I'm not into indoctrination, which is why I'm doing math. haha.

If you were only home-schooled through middle school, and you only went to one year of public school, deductive reasoning would suggest that you spent the other 3 years in private school, which is not run, operated, or approached the same way as public school.

Private schools do not receive their entire budget through government funding, the way public schools do (private schools have trustees and benefactors.)

And if you're intending to be a teacher, then you need to be informed of one thing above all others: teachers. are poor. Unless you get a nice tenure position at a private school or you intend to teach math in college, teachers make...so little it hurts. And if it weren't for education unions they'd probably make a whole lot less.

My father has spent the last 20 years teaching in the state public school system. He now has a 12-month a year administrative job for the same 10-month pay scale he had as a teacher: With tenure he BARELY GROSSES 40K a year (which in this state is 4k higher than the poverty level) and has had to hold at LEAST one summer job pretty much every year. That's gross, not net. Before income tax, 401(k), Medicare, Social Security, and so on. So yeah, the educator unions are going to politically support the party that is more likely to spend a larger percentage of the budget on education. That's how unions work: to look out for their members in the political forum.

And at the risk of being rude, the "teachers indoctrinating students to vote along with a political agenda" point is going to be a hard sell, especially when you consider the ABYSMAL number of people who vote in this country between the ages of 18-21. Turnout in that demographic is such a problem that the government turns to celebrities and corporations like MTV in an effort to get a fraction of the voting-age young adults to show up at the polls at all...and since the only year it could POSSIBLY have any effect statistically would be senior year of high school (since you can't vote until you're 18) it kind of seems like...throwing a teaspoon of water on a bonfire. Not much effect. Not enough to be statistically significant.

Unless you're suggesting that teachers are subversively and slowly over time directing students to vote a certain way, which involves a MASSIVE conspiracy: an active collective intention among hundreds of thousands of educators, administrators, and union officials, to subvert both the democratic and educational systems in the country to advance ONE party's agenda. And I hope you're not actually suggesting that.

If you're going to quote statistics, I would ask to see your sources, as a great deal of statistics are made up on the spot. If you're not going to cite the source for a statistic, then I ask you not to use statistics.

More importantly, if you're going to come into a debate thread, make a point and state, in your argument, that you're not going to bother to back your argument up and that you're not going to debate it...then you're missing the point of a debate. It's argument, support, counterargument, support. Not...I'm going to make my point and then close the matter. If you're not willing to support or discuss something you're going to say, then don't say it.