Originally Posted by Red Calypso

1. I don't consider a child a punishment. Ever. Guess what? It's totally irrevelant to this discussion. Personal feelings and rational debate don't mix well. I'm asking you for definite proof that pro-lifers consider pregnancy a punishment, not your personal feelings on the matter.

2. Still no concrete proof.

3. Personal anecdotes also don't make for good debate. They may well be the REASON you feel so strongly, but they don't make very good points.

I am going to do my very best NOT to use emotion in this debate, even to the point of using the term fetus instead of baby, though I dislike it.

1. And others do. Follow you advice about not using feelings or emotions.

2. Second, I guess you haven;t been paying attention.

3. SNot just me, but others have experinced it. Anytime anyone says a woman deserves what happens doesn't prove to me they care about the welfare or well being of a children.

And anything that has to use my body to sustain makes it my medical choice of what to do with it.

I have a reason: I do not want to house another organism in my body and let it feed off of me nor will I forgo the benefits of sex for the sake of letting that organism use me for its survival. I did not consent to its being nor should I be expected to do so. I should I be afflicted with pregnancy and cannot abort safely and legally, I will not alter my lifestyle to ensure the organism arrives in the world safely. I will be reckless to ensure I miscarry the pregnancy.

Originally Posted by Spencer

I think it's wrong and I'm against anyone getting an abortion but I don't think it should be illegal. If it was, women would just revert back to the dangerous coat hanger way. It won't stop them if they really do want an abortion. I've seen what a fetus looks like after its been aborted and it is just sickening that anyone would want to do that to a child. I don't see how it would be in a child's best interest to not live at all.

Bear in mind, most of those pictures are fake. A picture of an actual aborted fetus doesn't really resemble that. If the picture doesn't come from a reputable textbook or other unbiased sources, then it's most likely a fake.

i'm pro-choice. NOTHING and NO ONE has the right to use another's body against their will or without consent. that includes a fetus.

Originally Posted by Spencer

I think it's wrong and I'm against anyone getting an abortion but I don't think it should be illegal. If it was, women would just revert back to the dangerous coat hanger way. It won't stop them if they really do want an abortion. I've seen what a fetus looks like after its been aborted and it is just sickening that anyone would want to do that to a child. I don't see how it would be in a child's best interest to not live at all.

have you really seen a REAL abortion photo? probably not. most abortion pics are fake, mislabeled by 2-4 weeks, or they are stillborns. out of all the pics i've seen, i've only encountered three REAL pics. there is really nothing to see, except for a lot of blood. the fetus is like jello in the first trimester. when it is suctioned out of the uterus, it is liquified. plus, it's also less than 2 inches long.

Originally Posted by Arousal

I guess it is, but it's sad that so many people don't get a chance to experience life just because some people don't want to take the effort to prevent getting pregnant.

a fetus is not a person.

Originally Posted by Jimpi

As long as the woman's not dying then I say she shouldn't do abortion. Why kill another being? Isn't there enough already with the wars and those psychos?
If she doesn't want a baby, then the very LEAST she could is drop it off in an orphanage. I'm not saying it's right to do that, but it's better than killing another being. Think of how that child feels when there's a giant needle killing it?
(I'm not sure if that's how they do it... I just got that from a chain letter... (Which I don't believe in... I just cried when reading ;_;))

orphanages are overflowing as is. and you are ignorant on abortion procedures. there are no needles involved in a first trimester abortion. it's done with suction. the only time a needle is involved is if it's a late term abortion done for fetal deformity. the fetus is given a shot that stops its heart.

Originally Posted by Red Calypso

The problem with that view is that you are allowing women a right NO OTHER PERSON has, to decide the life and death of a human being that has committed no crime, that has in fact done nothing wrong except exist.

NOTHING and NO ONE has the right to use another's body without their consent or against their will. that includes a fetus.

Originally Posted by Majinkoz

There are two sides to it I mean...what if a teenager has sex and gets preg. and decides I don't want the baby and gets an abortion...I think that's wrong. The teen screwed up and should reap the consequences.

But say a woman with a family and her own kids gets raped and gets pregnant...I believe then that the baby should be aborted. :(

so you want to use a pregnancy to punish women with healthy sex lives?

Originally Posted by BucMan

Here is my opinion about abortion.

I think that abortion is unconstitutional. You are basically killing another human. There are only a few instances that abortion should be legalized.

If you don't want the baby or think you can't handle one, give it up for adoption. Another way to stop abortion is to not put yourself in a situation in where you have the possibility of having an unwanted baby.

sex is not just for "baby-making". the adoption system is overflowing as is. why add to that? and is it not unconstitutional to force a woman to gestate a pregnancy against her will?

Evil Kitten, Mene has a rule of no double posting, please follow it.
I dislike reporting people and well, would rather let you know. And besides you could respond to all of those in one big post and gotten more gold for it than all these little posts.

Originally Posted by AkashaHeartilly

Evil Kitten, Mene has a rule of no double posting, please follow it.
I dislike reporting people and well, would rather let you know. And besides you could respond to all of those in one big post and gotten more gold for it than all these little posts.

my apologies. i'm new here.

That's ok, just so you now know.
Enjoy your stay here. Mene a fairly freindly community.

I think its plain wrong! A child should get that chance to live. If the parent can not take care of it fine then put the kid up for adoption but dont abort and kill it. Besides imagine living with your self after you had an abortion i bet it would always be on your mind

Originally Posted by kieraXD

I think its plain wrong! A child should get that chance to live. If the parent can not take care of it fine then put the kid up for adoption but dont abort and kill it. Besides imagine living with your self after you had an abortion i bet it would always be on your mind

www.imnotsorry.com
There are women out there who never regret it and feel great about being free from this burden.

At this moment there is a lot of problems with adoption, and the only babies that are wanted are newborn white babies. There are millions of children in the system right now that need loving homes who don't have them because they are minorities and/or special needs.

Nor is it a child, it's a fetus. Children are ages 2-10.

I believe that a woman has a right to choose. Yes she will have her internal battle with a bunch of emotions and have a lot to think about in making her choice, but ultimately that choice is hers and hers alone.

I believe that the father's feelings should be taken in to consideration when making the choice but I also think that this is dependent on the woman. She might not give a flying fuck what he thinks, even though he might be 100% in support for being a parent and doing whatever he can to help. He might even be willing to raise the child on his own, but ultimately he does not have to actually carry the child. Pregnancy and child birth are hard on a woman, both emotionally and physically. There are women that seem to be "born" with it and take it in stride. Others... just don't.

I don't believe that anyone has a the right to force a woman in to having children. I understand things happen in the heat of the moment. I understand that the human animal is not infallible. Having children is not something that should be taken lightly and when you're not ready for one, you're not ready. No one should be allowed to tell you otherwise.

Originally Posted by kieraXD

I think its plain wrong! A child should get that chance to live. If the parent can not take care of it fine then put the kid up for adoption but dont abort and kill it. Besides imagine living with your self after you had an abortion i bet it would always be on your mind

there are no children involved in abortions. and why should the woman be forced to house a fetus for nine months? what about her rights? and the adoption system is overflowing as is. women are not broodmares for couples who ONLY want a fresh-from-the-vagina PERFECT little newborn. and i know of several women who have aborted and they do not think about it, nor do they feel bad about their choice.

I understand both sides of the Abortion debate. I'm somewhat against it for certain circumstances, but mostly I'm for it because no matter what justification you make to have abortion illegal, for me it still comes down to this: Tis a mother's choice--no one else's. Abortion is better than conceiving the child and then killing it on your own. And if the mother did let it live, how would that child feel when it found out that it wasn't wanted or loved? And if the child was given up for adoption, it would feel the same way--probably worse because the kid wouldn't even know who its parents were. Abortions happen everyday; imagine if twas made illegal and mothers were forced to give up their kids for adoption; can you imagine how crowded twould be?--How many unwanted kids there would be? It'd be sad. And the fault would rest mainly on stupid teenagers who can't control themselves and who never hesitate in jumping in the sack with some stranger, thinking condoms and birth control are always going to work.

Ever since middle school, I've thought that sex should be illegal, not abortion. You shouldn't have sex unless you're responsible enough and have enough money to raise a child, even if tisn't your intention to get pregnant. If a mother wants to have an abortion or give up her kid in any way, and that mother is underage and financially unstable, that mother should be put in prison for 18 years (the time it takes for a baby to become an adult). Perfect punishment. The same should apply to men as well. If they couldn't stay abstinent and put their child's life over their own selfish desires, they should be locked up and forced to be abstinent. If you think that's mean, consider my alternative: The mother's sex organs should be ripped out so she can never have kids again. Such an irresponsible choice made as a teenager may affect a child's whole life, while the mom can just give it up for adoption and forget ~ it and make the same "mistake" over and over. If you're that immature as a teenager, you're probably not going to be any different ten or so years later. Why should people be allowed to abuse life like that? Tis unacceptable.

Anwyay, the major reason why I'm for abortion is because the population is too high. If abortion is illegal, then there will be millions of children born, unloved and unwanted. If you don't want the kid, you should kill it before tis born so it doesn't have to suffer through life knowing tis unloved and unwanted. Better yet, if you don't want a kid, don't have sex! Sex is an act of love; sex is reproduction; tisn't meant as a way to have fun at a drug party. If you think tis an act of fun, you have been poisoned and corrupted by the media and need to have your sex organs ripped out.

Originally Posted by marisol

Ever since middle school, I've thought that sex should be illegal, not abortion. You shouldn't have sex unless you're responsible enough and have enough money to raise a child, even if tisn't your intention to get pregnant.

this is something i will never agree with. consent to sex IS NOT and will never be, consent to motherhood. sex is not just for "baby-making" and should not be viewed as such. and besides, having the money to take care of a child doesn't automatically make the woman ready for that or willing.

Kitten, it may not be the purpose people have these days for having sex, but it damn sure is a possible consequence. When you have sex, there is always always ALWAYS!!!! a chance of getting pregnant, whether you like it or not. If a woman is not strong enough or mature enough to deal with that prospect, frankly she's better have NOT having sex. I have asked this before elsewhere and now I will ask it here. Under what other circumstances does an ordinary citizen get to decide the life and death of another human being because of an act they freely committed?

Originally Posted by Red Calypso

Kitten, it may not be the purpose people have these days for having sex, but it damn sure is a possible consequence. When you have sex, there is always always ALWAYS!!!! a chance of getting pregnant, whether you like it or not. If a woman is not strong enough or mature enough to deal with that prospect, frankly she's better have NOT having sex. I have asked this before elsewhere and now I will ask it here. Under what other circumstances does an ordinary citizen get to decide the life and death of another human being because of an act they freely committed?

It's not a human, but a potiental to be a human.


Also, when this fetus is not having to require a human body to sustain it. When it is not a parasite, then yes, one can not decide it's fate. But when it has to require a body to live off and take it's nutrients from, then a women has the right to decide wether or not she wants to living off of her body.

Sex is not consent to pregnancy and women are not meant to be baby making machines.

And a abortion is a strong and mature desicion. It is taking respobility for your action, rather than carrying a life to full term and killing it then, adding more to the ever growing adoption pool, or living with resentment to this child for the rest of their lifes. Those all sound better, don't they?

Personally, I don't have anything against abortion. Now saying this, doesn't mean I am wholely for it either.

I am of the thought, that it should be up to the individual woman. But at the same time if there are women out there that are blantantly abusing abortions, by not wanting to take responsibility for their actions(i.e. not using condoms or birth control), then they shouldn't be allowed to continue getting such abortions.

I do believe that women should be able to get an abortion in such cases as rape or where their life might be in danger if the baby is carried to term without any hassle.

My mind is this, it is their life and their choice. The only person who will have to answer for that choice ultimately when that time comes is the woman.

Originally Posted by Kiodie

I am of the thought, that it should be up to the individual woman. But at the same time if there are women out there that are blantantly abusing abortions, by not wanting to take responsibility for their actions(i.e. not using condoms or birth control), then they shouldn't be allowed to continue getting such abortions.

And those women are stable and mature enough to have a child?
Those are women you can trust to take care of their bodies while pregnant and to take of themselves and the child, for either raising or adoption?

That logic never made sense to me, because those are still women taking responsibility for their actions, I fail to see how it is not.

Along with the logic that women who mess up, or lack the ability to get birth control, or in situtations where they can not, or just not on birth control, or with a partner who refuses to wear a condom, means that this women is more properly fit to carry a fetus to full term.

Originally Posted by AkashaHeartilly

And those women are stable and mature enough to have a child?
Those are women you can trust to take care of their bodies while pregnant and to take of themselves and the child, for either raising or adoption?

That logic never made sense to me, because those are still women taking responsibility for their actions, I fail to see how it is not.

Along with the logic that women who mess up, or lack the ability to get birth control, or in situtations where they can not, or just not on birth control, or with a partner who refuses to wear a condom, means that this women is more properly fit to carry a fetus to full term.

I am not sure if you understood what I was meaning by what I said. Either that or I am not quite grasping what you mean by your reply.

But if I am right in my understanding, then you are saying it is ok for a woman that can't take care of a kid and can't get ahold of birth control, to still have sex and get pregnant anyway? And if she is with someone that refuses to use a condom, then there is a problem somewhere in that relationship.

But again, I may be confused in my interpretation of your response or I didn't clarify mine well enough. One or the other.

Originally Posted by Kiodie

I am not sure if you understood what I was meaning by what I said. Either that or I am not quite grasping what you mean by your reply.

But if I am right in my understanding, then you are saying it is ok for a woman that can't take care of a kid and can't get ahold of birth control, to still have sex and get pregnant anyway? And if she is with someone that refuses to use a condom, then there is a problem somewhere in that relationship.

But again, I may be confused in my interpretation of your response or I didn't clarify mine well enough. One or the other.

No, it was posed to you saying that women "abuse" abortions or not on BC should not be able to have sex or have access to an abortion.

Yes, if a guy refuses to wear a condom there is something wrong with it. And it does not mean a women can easily get out of the relationship.

I have an odd opinion, I think.I'm neither for or against it.
And I don't think I could ever have one.
But, I can understand women who have them.


If your abused, raped or are a teenager who was irresponsible, I can understand not wanting the baby because of the memory or not being ready for it.
But for an adult woman who knew full well what she was doing...It makes me sad, because thats a child that could have lived and done something good for the world.

My whole life, I always begged my mother for a brother or sister, which is impossible because my dad had cancer and can no longer have children.
And a few years ago, I found out that she had an abortion five years before I was born.
And that kinda hurt, y'know?But she was too young and not ready for a baby.

Basically, I think I'm for it as long as theres a good reason.

Originally Posted by AkashaHeartilly

No, it was posed to you saying that women "abuse" abortions or not on BC should not be able to have sex or have access to an abortion.

Yes, if a guy refuses to wear a condom there is something wrong with it. And it does not mean a women can easily get out of the relationship.

Well by abusing it, I was meaning that she goes out, knowing that she might get pregnant and has sex without any protection, gets pregnant and has an abortion, then turns around and as soon as her body is healed up, she does the exact same thing again. And she does this over and over, knowing that she is gonna get pregnant.

Now, isn't this a bit of abuse? I mean come on, there are government sponsered health clinics and such where they give out free condoms or low cost birth control, so that could only be an excuse for so long.

Originally Posted by Kiodie

Well by abusing it, I was meaning that she goes out, knowing that she might get pregnant and has sex without any protection, gets pregnant and has an abortion, then turns around and as soon as her body is healed up, she does the exact same thing again. And she does this over and over, knowing that she is gonna get pregnant.

Now, isn't this a bit of abuse? I mean come on, there are government sponsered health clinics and such where they give out free condoms or low cost birth control, so that could only be an excuse for so long.

Rarely, everdo women do that.
I heere that as the reason to get rid of abortions, but I think the last time I looked it up through planned parenthood. 70+% of women who have abortions are having one for the first time.
20+% is a second time, and I want to say maybe 1% have a third one plus.

Ever had a bortion, or knows what goes on? it's a very invasive procedure, every women I know who has had one says it was not a pleasant experience. I've only known one who had 2, and that's because she was in an abusive relationship she was having problem getting out of.

But very, very few women do that. so that reasoning, is horrid.

Originally Posted by AkashaHeartilly

Rarely, everdo women do that.
I heere that as the reason to get rid of abortions, but I think the last time I looked it up through planned parenthood. 70+% of women who have abortions are having one for the first time.
20+% is a second time, and I want to say maybe 1% have a third one plus.

Ever had a bortion, or knows what goes on? it's a very invasive procedure, every women I know who has had one says it was not a pleasant experience. I've only known one who had 2, and that's because she was in an abusive relationship she was having problem getting out of.

But very, very few women do that. so that reasoning, is horrid.

Oh, I'm not saying that alot of women do abuse it, I am just saying that if there was women that did, they should be held accountable is all.

Originally Posted by Kiodie

Oh, I'm not saying that alot of women do abuse it, I am just saying that if there was women that did, they should be held accountable is all.

They often are, and usually when you go into a planned parenthood, they try and get you started on Birth control and offer consoling for everything.

Originally Posted by AkashaHeartilly

They often are, and usually when you go into a planned parenthood, they try and get you started on Birth control and offer consoling for everything.

I know they do those things too. I was just saying that should be one of the only reasons a woman might not be able to get an abortion. Overall, that part of it was a "what if" situation is all.