Originally Posted by Kiodie

I know they do those things too. I was just saying that should be one of the only reasons a woman might not be able to get an abortion. Overall, that part of it was a "what if" situation is all.

So your saying that women is ready to have a child or even take care of herself during a pregnancy?

Shouldn't a child NOT be a punishment?

Originally Posted by AkashaHeartilly

So your saying that women is ready to have a child or even take care of herself during a pregnancy?

Shouldn't a child NOT be a punishment?

I never said that, nor didn't say that. I said it was more of a 'what if' scenario.


And the only way a child should be punished for having sex repeatedly and getting pregnant is if they are aware of what they are doing and are doing it willfully in the first place. Obviously if a child is in a position where they have no control over things, then they can't be held responsible for it.

Originally Posted by Kiodie

I never said that, nor didn't say that. I said it was more of a 'what if' scenario.


And the only way a child should be punished for having sex repeatedly and getting pregnant is if they are aware of what they are doing and are doing it willfully in the first place. Obviously if a child is in a position where they have no control over things, then they can't be held responsible for it.

So, a child should be a punishment, if a women is having sex repeatedly, even though a child has no control over the situation?
And what in this situation makes for a good enviroment for a child to be raised in?
A women may be aware, but it would not mean she is in a stable situation to raise a child, or even mean she will care enough.

So why should another life even have to suffer? What in this "what if" makes for a happy ending for anyone? I doubt that child, who is the punishment, would even have a good life.

@Kiodie-- I'm sorry, but a child should never be a punishment even if the woman is a stupid whore who has unprotected sex with everyone in the town. It's simply not fair to the child. Now you're damning them to what's likely a miserable life; if she doesn't want it, chances are she probably won't care about its future.
Why should a baby who has done nothing wrong be punished for the mother's stupidity?

Besides, abortions (at least here) are $350 a pop. She's going to run out of money really fucking fast if she's aborting every baby she gets. Aside from that, I can't think of a woman who would be willing to do that. Usually they learn after the first time, and if not the second.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. I misinterpeted what was being said. I was taking it as child meaning someone underage, not the baby that would result from the pregnancy...that is what you meant by that right? The baby that would be the result of such pregnancy? I totally missed that one.

And this is why I normally don't participate in such debates. People get a little to bent out of shape over things. It is obvious that you aren't quite understanding the original point of my comment.

I will concede that I might not have made myself as clear as could be, but I am inclined to believe that you are gonna see what you want to see, regardless of what I say.

Originally Posted by Red Calypso

Kitten, it may not be the purpose people have these days for having sex, but it damn sure is a possible consequence. When you have sex, there is always always ALWAYS!!!! a chance of getting pregnant, whether you like it or not. If a woman is not strong enough or mature enough to deal with that prospect, frankly she's better have NOT having sex. I have asked this before elsewhere and now I will ask it here. Under what other circumstances does an ordinary citizen get to decide the life and death of another human being because of an act they freely committed?

i don't deny that whenever a woman has sex, there is a possibility of a pregnancy resulting. however, just because a pregnancy results, doesn't mean the woman HAS to carry it to term. and just because a woman is not ready for a child, doesn't mean she should deprive herself of sex with her partner. why should she? sex is not just for procreation, as you have admitted. and a fetus is not yet a human BEING. human, yes. but not a human BEING.

Kitten, human=human being. Perhaps what you really mean is that the fetus is not a PERSON. That is and probably always will be unresolved. Since that is the case, no one can say, beyond any reasonable doubt, that the fetus is NOT a person. Therefore, killing the fetus is unconscionable, because you have no idea whether you're killing a person or not. I think Peter Kreeft puts it best:

"Either the fetus is a person, or not; and either we know what it is, or not. Thus there are four and only four possibilities:

that it is not a person and we know that, that it is a person and we know that, that it is a person but we do not know that, and that it is not a person and we do not know that.

Now what is abortion in each of these four cases?

In case (1), abortion is perfectly permissible. We do no wrong if we kill what is not a person and we know it is not a person-e.g., if we fry a fish. But no one has ever proved with certainty that a fetus is not a person. If there exists anywhere such a proof, please show it to me and I shall convert to pro-choice on the spot if I cannot refute it. If we do not have case (1) we have either (2) or (3) or (4). What is abortion in each of these cases?

It is either murder, or manslaughter, or criminal negligence.

In case (2), where the fetus is a person and we know that, abortion is murder. For killing an innocent person knowing it is an innocent person is murder.

In case (3), abortion is manslaughter, for it is killing an innocent person not knowing and intending the full, deliberate extent of murder. It is like driving over a man-shaped overcoat in the street, which may be a drunk or may only be an old coat. It is like shooting at a sudden movement in a bush which may be your hunting companion or may be only a pheasant. It is like fumigating an apartment building with a highly toxic chemical not
knowing whether everyone is safely evacuated. If the victim is a person, you have committed manslaughter. And if not?

Even in case (4), even if abortion kills what is not in fact a person, but the killer does not know for sure that it is not a person, we have criminal negligence, as in the above three cases if there happened to be no one in the coat, the bush, or the building, but the driver, the hunter, or the fumigator did not know that, and nevertheless drove, shot or fumigated. Such negligence is instinctively and universally condemned by all reasonable individuals and societies as personally immoral and socially criminal; and cases (2) and (3), murder and manslaughter, are of course condemned even more strongly. We do not argue politely over whether such behavior is right or wrong. We wholeheartedly condemn it, even when we do not know whether there is a person there, because the killer did not know that a
person was not there. Why do we not do the same with abortion?"

To me, what it boils down to is this. The moment a woman becomes pregnant, she is the main guardian of the life she is carrying. A responsible guardian is protective of her charge and will do all in her power to protect him/her. A guardian who chooses otherwise is severely lacking in compassion, conscience and basic humanity. Abortion is not a noble, uplifting decision. It is the ultimate act of violence against the most helpless and defenseless of all human beings.

Originally Posted by Red Calypso

To me, what it boils down to is this. The moment a woman becomes pregnant, she is the main guardian of the life she is carrying. A responsible guardian is protective of her charge and will do all in her power to protect him/her. A guardian who chooses otherwise is severely lacking in compassion, conscience and basic humanity. Abortion is not a noble, uplifting decision. It is the ultimate act of violence against the most helpless and defenseless of all human beings.

Demeaning, much? The moment a woman becomes pregnant, she is the carrier of the child. She is a guardian should she choose to be a mother. A woman who aborts her child is far more compassionate than one who brings it into the world and throws it into a dumpster. Which image sounds more horrific to you; the "murder" of an unthinking, unfeeling being or a baby starving to death while no one cares for it?
I find your definition of the morals of people who have had abortions quite offensive. They are not "lacking in basic humanity." They are making the choice which happens to be best for them and that fetus.

To address the earlier part of your post (eliminated for space constraint) a fetus is NOT a person and I have no doubt in that fact. The fact that it has absolutely no capability to live outside its mother (or a brain stem) makes it less of a person and more of a parasite. A fetus the size of a quarter simply can't be compared to a human.

If having the baby will kill her, abortion is good.
Otherwise, it's a poor decision.

Has anyone ever heard of adoption?

You have sex - you get pregnant.
Finish what you started.

Originally Posted by Angle

If having the baby will kill her, abortion is good.
Otherwise, it's a poor decision.

Has anyone ever heard of adoption?

You have sex - you get pregnant.
Finish what you started.

Sex is not consent to pregnancy.
There is millions of children needing homes right now, when they get homes, then we talk adoption. Till then all those couples wanting only newborn, white babies can screw off. They really want to adopt and do something good, they would adopt one of the children needing homes right now.

And abortion, as in your words, finishing what you start.

And a fetus isn't a baby.

@Fabby
Thanks, you said it wonderfully.

My beliefs on abortion go both ways, it should be legal but to an extent. A women who get pregnat but just out af the blew decides it was a mistake should not be aloud to have an abortion it is her and the man's problem to deal with . The same applies for teens and pre teens if you had sex and got pregnant it is your problem to deal with.

The only cases in wich I believe abortion should be legal is when the the girl is raped, it is not her falt she is pregnant, and it woul dbe punishing her for something she did nothing to deserve. And fir her to have to look at her stomach every day for the 9 months and look at the child every day after that would be just plan cruel , it would be like reliving to rap every day and its bad enough to go through it once.
Also when it is incest(sp), virtually for the same reasons.
And when it can cause physical harm to the mother or if the child wont live any way for various reasons.

Originally Posted by AkashaHeartilly

Sex is not consent to pregnancy.
There is millions of children needing homes right now, when they get homes, then we talk adoption. Till then all those couples wanting only newborn, white babies can screw off. They really want to adopt and do something good, they would adopt one of the children needing homes right now.

And abortion, as in your words, finishing what you start.

And a fetus isn't a baby.

@Fabby
Thanks, you said it wonderfully.

Sex is consent to pregnancy when you have sex you that you can get pregnant. If you don't know that than you shouldn't be having sex any way. When you have sex there are consiquences for not having "safe sex" if you dont wnt a child either don't have sex or invest in a condom.


A fetus is a baby, try doing some research and use a dictionary!

Originally Posted by AkashaHeartilly

Sex is not consent to pregnancy.
There is millions of children needing homes right now, when they get homes, then we talk adoption. Till then all those couples wanting only newborn, white babies can screw off. They really want to adopt and do something good, they would adopt one of the children needing homes right now.

And abortion, as in your words, finishing what you start.

And a fetus isn't a baby.

I never implied that a fetus is a baby..

Sex is not consent to pregnancy..?
Everything has a consequence. Pregnancy is one consequence of sex.
You have no control over your consequences.
'I got drunk for fun, I didn't consent to this hangover!'
You know the consequences of sex, so when you have sex YOU are RESPONSIBLE to endure the consequences.

And just because there are millions of children that need homes, doesn't mean none of them get adopted. There are online adoption agencies that help you find an adoptive parent before your child is even born.
And what, 'when all those children get homes, then we talk adoption'.
Yeah, let's wait for all these kids to die/be adopted then start over fresh. There are plenty people out there who want children of their own but can't have them, there's always someone looking to adopt. The decision to go through with a pregnancy and give birth, then give your child to adoptive parents is good for the parents, and good for the kid. I personally would rather have had a chance at a happy life instead of being too scared to risk a life as a kid up for adoption.

Originally Posted by Angle

I never implied that a fetus is a baby..

Sex is not consent to pregnancy..?
Everything has a consequence. Pregnancy is one consequence of sex.
You have no control over your consequences.
'I got drunk for fun, I didn't consent to this hangover!'
You know the consequences of sex, so when you have sex YOU are RESPONSIBLE to endure the consequences.

And just because there are millions of children that need homes, doesn't mean none of them get adopted. There are online adoption agencies that help you find an adoptive parent before your child is even born.
And what, 'when all those children get homes, then we talk adoption'.
Yeah, let's wait for all these kids to die/be adopted then start over fresh. There are plenty people out there who want children of their own but can't have them, there's always someone looking to adopt. The decision to go through with a pregnancy and give birth, then give your child to adoptive parents is good for the parents, and good for the kid. I personally would rather have had a chance at a happy life instead of being too scared to risk a life as a kid up for adoption.

So, why did you use baby instead of fetus in your first post?

So that means by this logic no one should get medical help from a car accident because they knew the risks when they got in the ca, that there is always a chance of being in one?r

Or that you should be dennied dental work for cavaties because you know you could get them from eating sugar.

No, sex is not consent to pregnancy. Is does not mean I am giving up my life to be a carrier for a parasitc being to pawn off to others. It is something that can happen, and guess what, an abortion is also a consquence of those actions and taking responsebility for those said actions.

Sex is used for many different purpose, one of them being to have children but not always. Pregnancy can happen and so that's why there is the option for abortion.

I'm not saying wait for those children to die or grow up and be tossed out of the system. I'm saying all those couple who so badly want children have the option right now to have a child. It's just these children are not new born white babies. Living children deserve a chance at happiness more than a potiental human could ever deserve.

Nor is for every woman the option to go through with a pregnancy. ever try working whle pregnant or getting medical bills paid? You going to pay for all these women to be able to go through with this said pregnancy.

Regardless, an abortion is a responsible choice to a pregnancy. It is a consquence for an action and it is owning up to what has happen. Theres no way to say it's not.

Originally Posted by AkashaHeartilly

So, why did you use baby instead of fetus in your first post?

So that means by this logic no one should get medical help from a car accident because they knew the risks when they got in the ca, that there is always a chance of being in one?r

Or that you should be dennied dental work for cavaties because you know you could get them from eating sugar.

No, sex is not consent to pregnancy. Is does not mean I am giving up my life to be a carrier for a parasitc being to pawn off to others. It is something that can happen, and guess what, an abortion is also a consquence of those actions and taking responsebility for those said actions.

Sex is used for many different purpose, one of them being to have children but not always. Pregnancy can happen and so that's why there is the option for abortion.

I'm not saying wait for those children to die or grow up and be tossed out of the system. I'm saying all those couple who so badly want children have the option right now to have a child. It's just these children are not new born white babies. Living children deserve a chance at happiness more than a potiental human could ever deserve.

Nor is for every woman the option to go through with a pregnancy. ever try working whle pregnant or getting medical bills paid? You going to pay for all these women to be able to go through with this said pregnancy.

Regardless, an abortion is a responsible choice to a pregnancy. It is a consquence for an action and it is owning up to what has happen. Theres no way to say it's not.

When I said 'have baby' that means 'give birth'. How do you give birth to a fetus..?
I probably should have spoken a tad more clearly though. Sorry.

Medical help in a car accident is crucial - giving birth a baby wont kill you (and if it will, get an abortion). Plus, there's not much of an alternative for driving around, whereas having sex is your choice. The consequences of riding in a car/ eating sugar are suffered no matter what you do to fix them. The consequence of sex, pregnancy,is birth and getting an abortion dodges that. And an abortion isn't 'medical help' anyway. It's getting out of a birth that you are perfectly capable of going through with.

Abortion isn't taking responsibility. It is the mothers responsibility to give birth and raise young (in the cases of those who don't want to raise them, give them to adoptive parents).
It also isn't a consequence, since you can't choose your consequences. That's the whole point of the word 'consequence'.

And sex can be used for other purposes, but really people who don't want kids need to make sure they don't get pregnant.

And how cheap are abortions? They aren't as expensive as giving birth, but they aren't exactly cheap. And I'll tell you, when my parents were first married they literally had no money. When they had me they certainly didn't have half the money they needed, and now we live in a nice house, we have nice things, and I have three little sisters. I've never worked while being pregnant or paid the bills (I've never been pregnant) but if you want my mom to come tell you what it's like I can sure go ask her.

An abortion is the inability to go through with something you don't feel like doing and it is not right, and not justifiable. It is not a consequence (an event that occurs after a response and is produced by the response) of sex, rather than a consequence of not wanting to give birth.

Well, this is how I see it:

People have sex, and they do not protect themselves, then they run around crying "Oh, I am pregnant, oh, I am pregnant". It was their own faults. My brother has a friend whose girlfriend is 14. (My brother and his friend are both 15.) His friend got his girlfriend pregnant and for the longest time, that's all they talked about. Well...a little under a week ago she comes up to me and goes "I'm not pregnant anymore". And I just looked at her funny. She claims she aborted the baby. I refused to talk to her. I mean, you mess yourself up, deal with your problems.

But then I have the other view about rape. I myself was raped and has to be checked to make sure I was okay, which I was. But if some asshole guy had gotten me pregnant, I would want the choice to abort a child. I think they should have private abortion clinics where you can only go if a doctor sends you there because you were raped and became pregnant. Or if they know the baby will be overly sick or there us a chance that the mother carrying the child will be sick.

I think little girls and in sime cases, older woman having abortions is a wrong thing. My ex boyfriend's mother has 9 abortions, then told him the only reason he was here was because she couldn't afford it. I hate abortion and think it's a bad thing, but in some cases I encourage it.

@MysteriousDesire-- So, the babies that would have been produced as a product of rape are less deserving of life than the rest of the babies? Can you explain to me why it's only okay to kill some of them, but not all?

Because, as much joy as people get from babies, if you get a baby from rape, and you cannot support it, then the rapist did his job and distroyed your life. Where as if you make your own little mistake and aren't careful and become pregnant, you screwed your own life up. Babies that come from rape should not be aborted, but the mother's who have them sometimes have ruined lives. I know a girl who had a child because of rape and she needs her whole family just to help her survive.

People who are impregnated by rape didn't consent to sex, they didn't choose to have sex. It was forced on them. They didn't take the consequence risk, so they shouldn't be forced to assume responsibility. Although I still think giving birth and putting up for adoption is the right thing to do, those who are pregnant because of rape have a right to abortion.

Originally Posted by Angle

People who are impregnated by rape didn't consent to sex, they didn't choose to have sex. It was forced on them. They didn't take the consequence risk, so they shouldn't be forced to assume responsibility. Although I still think giving birth and putting up for adoption is the right thing to do, those who are pregnant because of rape have a right to abortion.

Yeah, that is what I would say. Put the baby up for adoption, but if all those people do that, then we will be overrun with homeless children. When I am ready, I am having a child and adopting a child. I hate the idea of children rotting away in those homes without a family to call their own.

Pasithea, back on page 19 you asked about the mother's health and copy/pasted the tired old laundry list of things that MIGHT go wrong in a pregnancy. Not so surprisingly, I reject most of the list out of hand, as being temporary, treatable and most definitely NOT life-threatening. If the mother's life is directly threatened, then an abortion is not out of line. This would include such things as ectopic pregnancies (which aren't viable anyway) and excessive hemorrhaging, IF it cannot be stopped. Abortion for morning sickness? No. For stretchmarks? No. For weight gain? No.

Plenty of mothers have their lives ruined by unwanted pregnancies. What about the 1% of people who birth control fails for? They tried, and something they couldn't have prevented happened. Teenagers shouldn't be having sex, but they do and you may as well not completely ruin their lives.

Originally Posted by Fabby

Teenagers shouldn't be having sex, but they do and you may as well not completely ruin their lives.

They did it to themselves.

They most certainly did not. :|
Unless they were specifically trying to get pregnant, they did not "do it to themselves". I don't know about you, but I've never seen any teen try for a baby off of the Maury Show.

Fabby, suppose you went to Las Vegas to gamble and lost big time at the tables. How far do you think you would get if you said, "Oh! I just came here to have fun! I wasn't planning on losing, so I don't have to pay you. Give me all my money back now." When you have sex with birth control, there is as you say always a minute chance that it will fail, but frankly that's a gamble you CHOSE to take. Another human being's life should not be forfeit because you gambled and lost.

Most everything I want to say has been said already.

I believe it is my (or anyone's) choice whether they want to go through with an abortion or not. If you don't think it's right or don't agree then do go through with it yourself but give others the option of doing so.

I'd prefer to see a baby aborted than brought up by terrible parents and then continuing the same vicious cycle.