Originally Posted by Fabby

@Lum Lotus-- I have yet to find someone who will deny a fetus as a living being.
It's just not a person. End of story. Being living =/= being a person. [...]

(I don't mean this in the sight of arguing but more of understanding your's and other's point of view...)
So with your idea is life a right or a privilege?

I think that the living have the right to life.
I wouldn't call living a privilege, though I don't consider a fetus as having an explicit right to life. If the mother wishes to end that life, she should be allowed to.

Originally Posted by Fabby

I think that the living have the right to life.
I wouldn't call living a privilege, though I don't consider a fetus as having an explicit right to life. If the mother wishes to end that life, she should be allowed to.

Ok then your idea is closer to mine than I thought. (Though still different)
I understand that though I believe it is in both sense can be considered both a right and a privilege. Right by human moral but Privileged by the standard of religion. (I'm not a religious freak but those who believe that God privileged us to living on this earth.)

Sorry if I distressed you with that question. :S

Don't worry about distressing me, I enjoy this debate. x3

Well, seeing how I'm non-religious I don't think that we're here because God gave us the privilege. But as long as the baby is still a part of the mother, I believe she has the right to do whatever she wishes with the baby.

Originally Posted by Fabby

Don't worry about distressing me, I enjoy this debate. x3

Well, seeing how I'm non-religious I don't think that we're here because God gave us the privilege. But as long as the baby is still a part of the mother, I believe she has the right to do whatever she wishes with the baby.

This part I'm usually confused with. :S
Does the placenta make the fetus separate or a part of the mother?
(I'm so mad about that question because I should know this... it seem if not simple. >.<)
I know it helps in the sense of filtering (as I will call it for now) but technically it is connected to the mother.
right?
Though being the job of filtering that would mean the fetus is its own being but being supported by the mother's nutrients also giving the fetus oxygen ect.

Hmmm...
Well, a fetus is a separate being from the mother. Its DNA is different, so it's a different entity, from a biological standpoint.

But the fact that it's using her body as an incubator makes it a part of her in a way, and gives her the right to remove it from her body if she so pleases.

So I suppose it's a little of both. >_>

Just like the bacteria in your intestines? xD [/bad joke] x_x''
Well, since a fetus is a group of cells multiplicating, organizing, but still a big pack of cells, I guess it makes a fetus living. The problem here is:
... when is a fetus a PERSON with rights?
From what I've been told, the laws [in my country at least] say that a person is a person from the day he or she is registered, meaning: having a document that says it was born with details like name and date etc.
So... that would leave the word "person" out of question... but the phrase "human with the right to life" is still there. We would have to define limits to living things to consider anything "human". What's a human? In my opinion, a human's a living thing , he/she must have developed all of the vital organs, all of which must be functional. So a cygote wouldn't count as a human FOR ME. It won't be more than a bunch for cells FOR ME until they show activity in their brain or heart, which are the most vital organs.

PS: I'll leave the delimitation of what is a human to those who have studied for it. I don't think anyone would take the opinion of a 14-year-old-girl that doesn't even live in USA to begin with.

Originally Posted by Kah Hilzin-Ec

Just like the bacteria in your intestines? xD [/bad joke] x_x''
[..]

I would call that more stating a fact rather than a joke. XD (either that or it went over my head. X_X)
Though these are good bacteria necessary for the human's "septic system".
Had something happened to cause them to be flushed out (not all but some) theres good ways of replenishing them by eating stuff like Yogurt. Yes people theres good bacteria in your food products. :D (I hope I scare someone with that. XD)
Though it would do you no use if they are not alive... ("live active cultures")
But I digress...

... what does disgress mean? o.o [what an ignorant xD]
Yeah yeah I know. The Lactobacilus or something like that. But I guess that waas better than saying "The parasites in your stomach after a night full of candy". It was nasty in both points of view o.o lol?

Well, a bacteria:
-Lives inside you. [bacteria->intestines/fetus->womb]
-Eat from your reserves [nutrients and the like].
-Can cause you pain/sickness. [bacteria->Paining tummy T.T/fetus-> morning sickness?]
-... anyone give me some ideas!

Well, from what I can remember [sheesh I'm sleepy =_=] it seems a fetus is like a bacteria... until they become officially pluricellular and develop organs o.o ...and they still follow that extremely short list I did there ^^'

PS: Don't feel offended by what I just wrote hmmkay? I know there are some differences, but from what I've learned in school it's not a big one... or at least not at the beggining xP

Originally Posted by Kah Hilzin-Ec

... what does disgress mean? o.o [what an ignorant xD]
Yeah yeah I know. The Lactobacilus or something like that. But I guess that waas better than saying "The parasites in your stomach after a night full of candy". It was nasty in both points of view o.o lol?

Well, a bacteria:
-Lives inside you. [bacteria->intestines/fetus->womb]
-Eat from your reserves [nutrients and the like].
-Can cause you pain/sickness. [bacteria->Paining tummy T.T/fetus-> morning sickness?]
-... anyone give me some ideas!

Well, from what I can remember [sheesh I'm sleepy =_=] it seems a fetus is like a bacteria... until they become officially pluricellular and develop organs o.o ...and they still follow that extremely short list I did there ^^'

PS: Don't feel offended by what I just wrote hmmkay? I know there are some differences, but from what I've learned in school it's not a big one... or at least not at the beggining xP

Sorry I misspelled digress. X_X
Simple typo is all...
And if you didn't know what digress means:
Wandering off of the main topic

But anyhow...
It would probably better to compare a fetus to a parasite rather than bacteria in the statement above. (By wording)
The bacteria in intestines that we are talking about are good bacteria not the bad kind. (Sorry for helping the abortion sided people on that one. :S I'm still against it.) The thing is though you bring up a good point.

Yes, I've never really thought of a fetus as bacteria so much as a parasite.
When I think of bacteria I usually think of colds. XD

xD;;
Sorry, I still don't have it clear, the difference between bacteria and parasite... I guess a parasite's the same as bacteria just bad? o.ô *remember the Tenia parasite* Oh wait, that thing is meters long! >.<
Anyway, I also compared this topic with the fact that we kill animals to eat and just a few people complain about that. Also, I've never ever in my whole life seen someone complaining against plant consuming. Hey, they're living things as well, and believe it or not, the can be affected by your emotions, just as a kid can o_o I've got some proof >o>!

Still, I respect everyone's religion as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. In my opinion, only the christians who are for life should choose not to abort. I find it wrong to push their beliefs down your throat, and I don't just mean their faith. I mean our traditions/thinking too. I bet a christian would find it wrong to be be paid $1 for 10-12 hours of work, but most chinese seem to be satisfied with the fact that at least they have a job. It's just your way of thinking.

"as long as it doesn't hurt anyone" who can and is breathing, just so you don't use that phrase against me ^^v

To those who say "put it up for adoption": Sheesh, I believe nobody should give out an advice they've never followed. Seriously, what's the percentage of people that said that AND have adopted a child? And what's the percentage of people who adopted a child with problems?

PS: Thanks for the explanation Lotus :D One learns a new bit everyday ^_^b

I personally, don't agree with abortion. I don't think it's right morally and I do believe that even though a woman will hate to do it, it's the best decision for the child's sake.

But It isn't up to me unless I'm the one who's pregnant.

It's really a whole freedom of choice thing though.

How is it best for the child, really?
Chances are it won't end up with particularly desirable living settings, to put it lightly.

"A person is a person, no matter how small"-Dr. Seuss

The moment that sperm hits the egg it's a person, getting rid of it is murder. That said, in some cases abortion should be allowed. Before a child is an adult, they should(I think) be required to have an abortion. The teenage pregnancy rate may not drop, but at least the number of lower class kids that get pregnant might. as in the case of the apple not falling fall from the tree. And now, a true story:

A girl I'm very close to (we'll call her Anna) got pregnant when she was 15. Anna and her boyfriend fantasized about how wonderful it would be to have a child for two weeks, until sh was sure if she was or not. Then her parents found out. They DID NOT force her to have an abortion, however they suggested it would be a good idea because Anna was very small, and not yet developed enough to carry a child. Her boyfriend didn't understand. His mother had him when she was 16, so there wasn't any problem with teenage pregnancy for him. When she got the abortion, he threatened to kill her. The restraining order is pending.

If Anna had told her parents immediately after it happened, she could have taken the morning after pill, instead she waited because she was scared what they would say. Then she fantasied about how nice her life could still be.

Stupid rich woman in their 40's who just don't want another child should not be allowed to get an abortion, but in the case of danger to the mother or child, the abortion should be allowed.

I talked to Anna recently, and she still has nightmares, or wakes up because she thought she felt a heartbeat within her. She's being given medication to cope. If the abortion is going to impact someone that badly, then they should be allowed to go through with it, since it is not a matter of alleviating a problem, but rather af evening out to the lesser of two evils. Murder that can save another life has always been legal in war, why not in this case?

Originally Posted by attackat

The moment that sperm hits the egg it's a person, getting rid of it is murder. That said, in some cases abortion should be allowed.

So you're saying that it's okay to murder some "people" but not others?[/quote]

Before a child is an adult, they should(I think) be required to have an abortion. The teenage pregnancy rate may not drop, but at least the number of lower class kids that get pregnant might. as in the case of the apple not falling fall from the tree.

And who are you to decide whether or not they should be allowed to give birth? There are a lot of pro-choice teenage girls who would be horrified that they were FORCED into having an abortion. It's probably not going to end well anyway, but the fact is it's not your place to decide what they should do.

Stupid rich woman in their 40's who just don't want another child should not be allowed to get an abortion, but in the case of danger to the mother or child, the abortion should be allowed.

So, wait. Because they're capable of giving birth and accommodating the child, they HAVE TO give birth? What the hell? It's quite depressing how badly discriminated against middle-aged women are when it comes to the abortion debate. The fetus of a woman who was raped is EXACTLY THE SAME as the fetus of the woman who just forgot a condom. I do not see why one should be granted immunity and the other sentenced to death. Besides, where are we going to draw the line? JUST women who and emotionally capable of having a baby? That's actually a very small group. Most women who have abortions do it because they just can't take care of the child, AKA: people who you think should be allowed to abort.

Mew...let me explain myself then...

I do support the death penalty, because that person had a choice in what they did. There was time when I was adamantly opposed to abortion because the child had no opportunity to do anything to deserve that death (I've been raised extreme Christian btw, if that helps my argument, or hinders, so be it) In addition, my mother was the product of a teenage pregnancy, if her mother had had an abortion, I would not be here today. Of the point, "it's okay to murder some, not others," No, it's not. But if the mother were to die from having the child, or if she was planning on putting it up for adoption, the lives would not be good ones. Children can not be put up for adoption without both parents consent. In Anna's case, her boyfriend would never have signed off on it, which is part of what made her go through with the abortion. She couldn't stand the thought of her child being put into foster care. Sometimes, life could be worse than murder, do you disagree?

secondly, It's not my place, but it shouldn't be anyone's place but the girls themselves. I don't understand abortion having to be illegal for anyone. If it were illegal, the girls would find much more dangerous ways of trying to have an abortion, many leading to them dying, or not being able to have a child later in life anyway. The only reason I propose such a thing is that most...if not all...teenagers are not capable of raising a child, heck, hitting 20 doesn't mean you're capable either. I know grandparents raising three generations of children. (I do live in a mostly poor area). Yes, my words were rash, and you shouldn't say what you don't mean, so I do apologize for that particular comment.

thirdly, actually, 40's would mean they probably would be advised to abortion...so I shouldn't have typed that anyway. But (and it's a big but) yes, if you are perfectly capable, and able to accommodate having a child, you should have the child and take care of it. Abortion is a terrible thing, and if your mindset going in is that it can just be gotten rid of, then you shouldn't be having sex at all.

Women who are raped is a touchy subject, I know two girls who were raped, one in person, the other online, who got pregnant and decided to keep the child, it wasn't the child's fault they were raped. Found this:

Of the rapes that resulted in pregnancy, 21 percent occurred when the victim was 12 to 15 years of age, 27 percent occurred among women 16 to 17 years of age and 52 percent occurred after the age of 18. Only 24 percent of women who were assaulted sought medical assistance. In cases in which medical attention was not given, only one-half of the women reported being counseled about the possibility of a pregnancy resulting from the rape. Subsequently, 32.4 percent of the pregnancies were not discovered until the second trimester. Outcome data indicated that the majority of the rape-related pregnancies were unwanted. A total of 32.3 percent of the mothers kept the infants; 50 percent underwent abortion, and 5.9 percent placed the infants for adoption.

and:

But the only two published studies that have actually tracked the choices and experiences of women who have become pregnant after rape or incest, Reardon said, actually lead to the opposite conclusions. Remarkably, both studies found that approximately 70 percent of pregnant rape victims chose to give birth rather than have abortions, even though abortion was readily available.

from here: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...55/ai_19051866
and here: http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2006/sep/06090702.html


if the victims of rape primarily keep the child, why shouldn't the women who simply forgot a condom (which is a lame excuse anyway, they'd still forget if abortion were illegal) yes, things break, pills don't work when they were supposed to. If you aren't emotionally ready, then I guess it would make sense for you to abort the child, but that's what counselors are for.

I don't think a line needs to be drawn, I think it should stay legal. But, for the sake of argument.

Basically, you want to save the child from a life of misery? I agree.
But what makes you think that just because it's born into the hands of a capable mother that it will be cared for? If she doesn't want the baby, there's a good chance she will abuse or neglect it because she never wanted to have it to begin with. A child with its birth mother who couldn't care less about it, is that really any better than going into foster care and bouncing from home to home?

Most teenagers aren't ready to have kids, and I think that most of the teenage mothers today should have aborted. Unfortunately, there's nothing to be done about them. As I said, we cannot force their hand.

Because they don't want to, basically. Those victims had the choice to have an abortion, and so should your run of the mill idiots.
As for counselors, well, all the counseling in the world wouldn't make it less of a catastrophe if I got pregnant. O___O

read my post here please?: http://www.menewsha.com/forum/showthread.php?t=102182

Nope, counseling doesn't help one bit, but It's the best we, as humans can do. I'm glad I was finally able to make myself understood, if I am...sometimes I barely understand myself. But for the sake of argument I do learn some valuable things. Thank you!

It should count as murder.
Abortion should only be aloud to women/girls who have been raped or women/girls whose lifes are at risk...and possibly very young girls who can't take care of the baby...but other then that they should have to keep the child.
In my family if you made the baby you keep and raise it no matter what (well unless you were raped) if you are like young then it rests on your parent to raise said child.

@Dark Angel-- Why should the parent have to pay for the child's mistake? O_o

I am not entirely sure...but I live in the sticks...and out here its watch your kid there your problem...you watch out for them...I am not saying they should but its just the way my family works...werid eh?

Originally Posted by attackat

"A person is a person, no matter how small"-Dr. Seuss

The moment that sperm hits the egg it's a person, getting rid of it is murder. That said, in some cases abortion should be allowed. Before a child is an adult, they should(I think) be required to have an abortion. The teenage pregnancy rate may not drop, but at least the number of lower class kids that get pregnant might. as in the case of the apple not falling fall from the tree.

first off, when sperm hits egg, it's NOT a person. it's a zygote. a fetus is not a person until it is born. second, what the hell gives you the right to force a teenaged girl to abort? i thought abortion was murder....or is it only murder when you say it is?

Stupid rich woman in their 40's who just don't want another child should not be allowed to get an abortion

what?! just because a woman has the means to afford a child. does not mean she wants one. why force her to have one against her will? where is the logic in that?

Originally Posted by xox_Dark_Angel_xox

It should count as murder.
Abortion should only be aloud to women/girls who have been raped or women/girls whose lifes are at risk...and possibly very young girls who can't take care of the baby...but other then that they should have to keep the child.
In my family if you made the baby you keep and raise it no matter what (well unless you were raped) if you are like young then it rests on your parent to raise said child.

murder is when one PERSON unlawfully kills another PERSON with malicious intent. abortion is not unlawful, the fetus is not a person and there is no malice. therefore CANNOT be murder. and what makes a rape fetus different from a non-rape fetus? and just because your family forces motherhood on women, doesn't mean it's okay. it's not. a woman should be able to choose whether or not to be a mother.

I think let women decide what they want to do with the child!

Very concise, ananym. I like it. xD