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...and no matter how many times you (either of you) say that, it still looks like a rationalization and an excuse for the male in that situation to leave his self-control at the door and take what he wants because she led him on.
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However, a woman should understand the fact that not everyone is going to know where her boundaries are. Therefore, the easiest, and simplest way to avoid something like rape is to not entice it.
It is not an excuse. It is up to the man alone in that decision to take what he has just recently been informed was off-limits. The man was still in the wrong, and would always be, but the woman did not help the matter by presenting herself in such a way that could be misinterpreted to awful consequences. |
You can't say in one breath that no rape is justifiable and then in the same breath turn around and say that people should avoid certain behaviors if they don't want to be raped.
Something as simple as provocative behavior should not trigger such a lack of self control that the woman then isn't allowed to say no. It's inexcusable under any circumstances and there is absolutely no reason why, under any circumstances, a woman (or man) should have to feel ashamed of the way they look or act simply because it will attract attention to them that could THEN lead to rape "if they involve the wrong kind of man." In my mind, even viewing that as a remotely plausible solution to rape is ludicrous and tantamount to condoning rape in some fashion, even if it's a small one. The solution to rape is for the rapist to stop raping people. |
Oh Brinne, you KNOW she's just giving some very useful advise, not excusing the rapist. The body language thing isn't just "plain bullshit". If a student is sleeping in the middle of the class, he's saying "I give a fuck w/e you're saying" to the teacher without opening his/her mouth. Same to the girls who dance as if they were having an orgasm. They're saying "Sex please" without using their mouth. This doesn't mean, however, that all women raped were like that, or that all who are like that are raped. What I'm trying to say, is that most of the time, girls raped were either unresponsible or ignorant [not as an insult, but as not knowing how to, appliable to those in aparent secure places and those who couldn't have evaded it]. And dancing like that in a place that you know strangers are going to see you and perceive that message is irresponsible. Going alone to such places is more irresponsible, and leaving alone and/or with a stranger is way even more irresponsible.
The solution to rape you give isn't really a solution though. Is just the inverse of the problem. A solution is either a way to attack and make the problem dissappear or a way to defend oneself from the problem [in my point of view though, refute me with a dictionary]. A solution for rape would be to educate women how to defend oneself and be more responsible, and/or make security more strict. PS: I don't understand why people dance like that though xD If they wanted to dance energetically, couldn't they do it in a different, less sexually-suggestive way, like maybe jumpdancing? xP |
Okay. Let's take this example...
A store owner obviously doesn't want to be robbed, right? But if they leave the doors unlocked, the register open, and the lights on and cameras off (all necessary precautions against being robbed) and they are robbed, it seems a little silly for them to claim it was all the robbers fault because it was only the robber that committed a crime. It's not illegal to reject security, but it's definately a good idea to protect their wares. Why is the woman who dresses with clothes that display "naughty bits" and is raped any different from the store-owner that doesn't take necessary pre-cautions and is robbed? |
Nope, its never the victims fault....
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Ah, this takes me back to elementary school: the couselor coming and talking to the class about sexual abuse. "It's never your fault," they said... XD
I don't think it's the victim's fault at all. |
Items, money and value is replaceable, versus the mental, physical and all other losses that come with a victim of rape. Comparing the lost is different and values are different.
Just because someone is wearing something skimpy is no right to rape, nor does it make the person any less valueable or make their rape any less tramatic or worse. By that example, any attacker can use the excuse she was asking for it for any manner of dress one deems to revealing. Cultural and perosnal taste varry, you can be a whore for just wearing pants and worthy of rape or death in some. Any lee-way given with clothing opens a can of worms for any and all rape cases and brings down the value of the victim, as if they do not already feel horrible for being raped and blaming themselves. And body language is a key for many people, but to say that, sounds like as excuse or an ok for it to happen, and makes the that rape less worthy of care. By that reason for dancing, most people wouldn't go to clubs or go dancing. The style of dance for most people has changed and what is acceptable and what you will see and do at an average club. To say one should not dance like that is well not possible for most for clubbing. On average you will dance with strangers at clubs, and often people do go to pick up on others, but that is not an excuse, reason, detriment, or anything else. The person who did the rape has responsibilty for not finding out if that person wanted to or not, with explicit verbal permission. If no yes was given, even if body language may of said yes, it's still the rapist fault. |
Bingo! Yahtzee! and all other expressions of "right on."
From top to bottom, and side to side, I agree with that post. |
Okay, if you think so, I'll change my wording:
It's the rapist's fault for raping. And most of the time, it's the victim's fault of giving the rapist the oportunity. The hell if you think "Oh poor, never your fault". Nobody achieves anything if they don't have the oportunity. I could have told my mom my cousin was going too far with affections, and even though she had warned me of this, I didn't tell. I could have avoided the whole situation, I had the time, I had the control... but I didn't. My fault. And before you attack me or anything, I don't mean every victim could have avoided it ["most of the time"], but I believe in the majority of cases, this drama could have been avoided. PS: And I never said "Don't go clubbing!". I suggested that there are other ways of dancing than parodying sex, which would help you avoid sending the 'wrong' body language signs, and a missunderstanding. |
In some countries, women are punnished for getting raped. I think that's unfair because it should be the man's fault if he raped her. Somewhere, i don't remember where, women's faces are burned because they got raped. How does anyone come to the conclusion that they should punnish the woman for GETTING raped?
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But that is what most dancing started as and a way to convey. Even classic dancing like the Tango, Flamingo, and Belly dancing, all very sexual and designed to convey that. So to say that with dancing, would mean to not dance for most people at all.
I get what your saying, but the problem with that, is in rape cases that is used to demiss and down grade the case and turn it into a "she wanted it, so I gave it to her" and violates what happen. Often Rape cases come down to a he said, she said case, and things like that are used to bring down the case or even get it thrown out. So I can not support what you are saying there for those reasons. |
I don't know what's "convey" [Non-english speaker T.T] but as far as I know, dancing started as a way to attract a mate, so if you want to dance, but don't want to mate, please, don't do it in these sexual suggestive ways. I don't think all dancing include humping your partner xD
And by your second paragraph, I get that you can't agree with me because that is used as an excuse. I don't see an attack in there [but then, I'm too sleepy for anything] >.>' PS: And Liath, I think that happens in... Muslim countries? Where a woman must do more than what she can to keep her virginity for a man who could have lost it long ago. It's their culture, just like here, women who are raped are inmediatly considered sluts. |
while I agree it's almost always 100% the rapist's fault, and it's a sad stereotype that only women get raped(yes, I do know a young man who was tied-down and raped at a party in front of dozens of his friends, so it does happen) there are those cases in which people just walk right into it. people don't think, teens think they're invincible, they don't pay attention to what's going on around them and bad things happen. I don't want to sound insensitive, and like I said it IS the fault of the rapist for taking advantage of someone like that, but at the same time people sometimes set themselves up for trouble, so it is sometimes SOMETIMES partially their fault. for example, let's take a look at me. (er, I'm a girl, by the way) I think I was what... ten? eleven? somewhere around there. anyway, we went over to my cousin's house and my aunt and mom specifically told me don't play with him because he's an older boy and boy's play rough, of course I didn't listen and we ended up wrestling. he easily overpowered me and was soon trying to do all that sexual nasty stuff that you just don't do to a little girl, so I kicked him in the face and ran downstairs. so, what could have been done to prevent that situation from even occurring? I should've listened to my mother and my auntie. mind you I'm not emotionally scarred or anything; I was scared at first, but now I'm not at all bothered. in fact, I had to rack my brain just to remember lol. also, it's a good idea to take preventative measures before you decide to go out somewhere, always stay with your friend, take something to protect yourself with if you're going alone(which you shouldn't do in the first place, but I have a good taser) or even if you're not going alone, don't get shitfaced, watch your drink like a hawk or carry it with you, get a ride home, stay in contact with your folks or roommate and have the cops on speed-dial. convey means to "project" or "show", in a way. also, I just hope you aren't in America, sweetheart. because here, rape victims are most definitely NOT considered at fault. |
No will always mean no, if a girl doesn't want to do it even after getting real hot and heavy it's still not ok to go further. You have to listen to your partner and not be selfish enough to take something that isn't yours. Guys who think women are weak and can take sexual favors or force themselves on them are disgusting and piss me off. I know there are cases when it's not women but guys who can get raped *which makes me queasy to think about* but it's not as occuring as the other.
The victim is never at fault. |
I'm in America [~dun dun DOOM!~]. South America to be exact. I wonder why the USA call themselves America sometimes, they're big but not that big ^^'
And um yeah. Preventing is better than being sorry, but there seems to be some people that think that everyone respects the law. No everyone does it, and like it or dislike it, it happens everyday. And those who don't respect the law can and probably will harm anyone innocent, so having a defense isn't a bad idea. No, more like a must-have. But then, I live in a place where half of the population has done something aginst the law e.e PS: So Akasha said dancing is a way to show that you're overflowing with sexual desire? o_o? |
I think this will be the last post from me in here. I've never said men were excused for raping a woman because of the reasoning I gave. I merely stated that these were reasons why a rape case was more likely, and by avoiding these behavoirs, rape is less likely to happen.
I remain true to my idea that while the rapist is ultimately the person at fault, I feel that it is still a two-party affair, and that the victim may or may not have helped lead the rape into being. I'm not saying this makes the victim any less sympathetic or less traumatizing... however, I believe they should have been much more careful, and taken measures to ensure something like rape would not happen. Not really sure why this has received the opposition it has, but I digress, I'll leave now. Have fun debating. :) |
Taliah as I said, I understand what you are saying, but the thing is that is used to dismiss rape cases and even guilt a victim into not going forward for people will think they were just asking for it. Sure you can do preventive measures and it will still happen. But you shouldn't always have to do things differently because some douche-waffle will take that as an open invitation to have there way.
So I would rather not give more of reason for any victim to not go forward, get help and not testify against the attacker. |
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No, no. That's not it at all. It IS sad that people have to take preventative measures to protect themselves, but that doesn't change the fact that it must be done. The world is a dangerous place, but if you're smart, a lot of the danger can be avoided. Not all, but you're a lot safer if you just make preparations and take a little extra time to lock your door or check in with your folks. It SHOULD be common sense. Rape will always be the fault of the perpetrator, but the point is a lot of the time things like this happen because people don't pay attention to what's going on around them, or they do the exact opposite of what their parents say. It doesn't mean they were asking for it, it doesn't mean they don't deserve sympathy, it just means that there are ways to protect yourself from these kind of things, and people just need to be a bit more cautious. It's sad, but it's true. Quote:
I dunno. We claim the name in the name of apple pie and baseball! |
I still think that most of the time a rape victim is a biiit at fault. Doesn't make them guilty of the crime, but knowing situations like that can happen to anyone, s/he could have avoided it somehow [most of the times, mind you].
Like in that example that was given some posts ago [Taliah I think?]. The robbers shouldn't have stolen the store, but when it has the camera's off, no watchman, no alarm system, no lock, it was expected to happen. Having security backup is common sense, isn't it? PS: As far as I know, United States of America is United States of. America defines the whole continent. And saying "North" "South" "Caribean" etc is just a way to especify, like... "Southern Asia" o.o |
@ Kah Hilzin-Ec: Even if the money was laying on the counter wrapped in neat little bundles and there was no one around for 40 miles, it doesn't make stealing right or ok.
I don't care if someone had "Rape Me" tattooed on their forehead, screen printed on their t-shirt, embroidered across their backside, airbrushed on their fingernails, and painted on a huge sign hung around their neck all at the same time in a dark alley in the darkest part of the worst part of town in the worst state of inebriation ever experienced by mankind; Its Never the victims fault. Sorry for the overkill. I feel pretty strongly about this. |
Mention where did I say it was "right or ok", please. I just said having no protection or defense knowing such situation could happen to anyone is kind of irresponsible and reckless. You should expect a bad grade in a quiz if you've been sleeping in class. It doesn't make having bad grades right or ok, but when such actions were taken, it's common sense there will be a consequence. If I dress with a mini-skirt, a transparent top, high heels and a lot of make-up, I could be as comfortable as never before [hypothetically] but there would be someone with enough guts to ask if I were offering my services >_>
PS: And people never achieve anything if they hadn't had the opportunity. Now wether that opportunity was unconsiously given by the victim or couldn't have been avoided [which I find rather rare]... |
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No one EVER said rape is okay. Continuing the "store getting robbed" thing: no one EVER said it's okay to rob a store. It was only said that the store could've avoided being robbed by taking precautions. No one said it was the store owner's fault for getting robbed, even if he left his door wide open, cameras switched off and money on the counter. But the store owner should've known better than to present his store as such an easy target. In a perfect world, everyone would just walk past the store and leave the money alone, but the world is not perfect and there will always be assholes who DO rob the store. If you don't want to be raped, you don't present yourself as an easy target. If you DO feel the need to run around humping people's legs with your boobs hanging out and your skirt nearly covering half your buttcrack, it's not your fault if someone rapes you, but you COULD have avoided it by not presenting yourself as if you're desperate for sex. In a perfect world, people who are interested in you would always ask if you're interested in them, and leave you alone if you say no. But the world is not perfect and there are enough people who assume instead of asking. |
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but of course. rape isn't the victims fault. but a little bit of common sense goes a long way. Quote:
actually, when people say where they're from in South America, more often then not they say "I'm from Brazil" or "I'm from Chile". they don't just say "America". this is because, like Schrodinger said, the US of A is a country. South America is a continent. That's like saying "I'm from Asia" instead of "I'm from China". no specific reason... that's just how it is. |
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