And I also believe that I said, Adoption. You know, that thing where you give the child up to a couple that has the resources to take care of it?

Ah, but how do you know that the woman would want an abortion if that chance of her getting pregnant became her getting pregnant?

I believe we've been over adoption:

Originally Posted by Kris

ABORTION IS ABOUT UNWANTED PREGNANCIES. ADOPTION DOES NOT SOLVE AN UNWANTED PREGNANCY.

Just because you CAN take care of kids does not mean that the child is wanted. Wanting children and having children means that a child is wanted.

You STILL haven't answered our question: why do you want to punish women for having sex?

Go watch Juno.

Oh, and you're repeating yourself Kris.

Juno is NOT an accurate display of the real world what so ever. It is a move, for entertainment purposes, not a documentary or real-life portrayal of what it is like to be a pregnant teenager and giving a child up for adoption.

Oh, and you're ignoring my points.

Adoption isn't the answer because not all of the children put up for adoption will be adopted. In fact that vast majority of them will not be adopted. Plus adding the fetuses that are/will be aborted to that will make it a lot worse than it already is.

Not every female/male who does not take the proper precautions is unintelligent. Many of them are just not informed of the proper steps to take to prevent pregnancy. Being mis/uninformed is not the same, nor does it change your level of intelligence.

@Kris- If a married couple does not want to have children they should consider the possibility of having something called birth control which you can get types that can stay in your system for years. And then remove it once you want to have children. If they are a married couple and they never want to have children, then by all means she can get her tubed tied or a vasectomy.

If a woman who has had all the children she wants and doesn't want to have a child once again. A hysterectomy or a vasectomy can be used. Or if the money is not in use for that, then well, birth control again. If you can afford abortion, you can afford birth control.

I do not believe anywhere that she said ANYTHING at all about not having sex and that it was unintelligent to have sex. For if she said this, she herself would be a hypocrite and I know very well that she is not.

Punishing women for sex is not what she was saying needed to be done at all either.

If a person gets an abortion for screwing up their own life, is it OK to kill the life that they created. Especially that of a married couple? I don't know how you seem to see life as, but in the real world. Abortions can also not only killing a child that is in the person but have side effects on the person who had it.

Are you aware that women who have abortions or use the morning after pill to many times end up getting drastically ill?

@Keyori- Yes birth control can fail. I agree with you on that because of the fact that, that is how they work. In saying you use three types of birth control I am hoping you will not say something along the lines of I use two condoms, one for him, one for me and a patch/pill/shot whatever. Or something of that nature, or saying that you use something like the patch and the pill or anything of that sort as seeing as the first example is just stupid and of course likely to fail, while the other is likely to get you very ill.

She also did not say anywhere that she wanted to punish women who are pregnant because their precautions failed. In fact upon knowing her very well. Which is the only damned reason I am white knighting her at all, she would be all for someone who's birth control didn't work to get an abortion, but not in the suck the child out of you, or kill it inside of you sense. She would simply say that if the condom broke, or something of that sort, that the morning after pill or second choice whichever you prefer to call it would be a smart thing to use.

While having your tubes tied might not be a sure thing that you wont get pregnant, you are still barging on that 1%. Which is also very slim to none, if an abortion was needed there because of the possibility of it killing the woman in question, then yes, by all means let her.

@Kris again- Lawl! You think this woman here can take care of a child? No way in hell is she possibly able to take care of one right now. Thus the reason she was stating what she was. Don't put words in peoples mouths it is not right, and is very rude. :)

While Juno may not be a perfect accurate display of the real world what so ever as you put it, some of the things in that movie are very true. A mother will always grow attached to whatever is growing inside of them, thus the reason women have things that are known as baby blues once the child is born.

She isn't ignoring your points. She is annoyed that you are repeating yourself like a broken record.

Also I am pro choice, but I am not. I have my reasons and my beliefs. Do I think that abortion should be used as a form of birth control? No. I do not. For many reason. The main one being this.

After about two abortions you might not be able to have children. Are you aware of this? And if you are able to conceive again. It will increase the risk of miscarriages and still births which the second one can possibly kill you.

So lets use the scene that you placed out. Say that married couple gets pregnant twice, and has a abortions both times. Has used it in a sense of birth control, they finally decide a few months, maybe a year or two down the road they want to have children, but the wife is miscarriage or had a still birth that ends up putting her in the hospital and possibly killing her.

So was the abortion worth it in the form of birth control when not only two life's were killed but now a third and the woman who is the wife? No. Is it fair to have the husband go through and watch this happen? No.

Also most women might say they are willing to have an abortion but I am going to ask the same question that I asked a friend of mine last night when she mentioned it. Could you really? Knowing that something is inside of you, and is now apart of you, could you kill that being that is apart of you because you slipped up and got pregnant?

@Flink- This may be true that adoption is not the answer because not all of the children are adopted thus the reason we have issues with orphanages. But still, abortion should not be used as a form of birth control at all. If you are not ready to have a child and are young, then don't have sex. It is for these reasons right here that I think that it is stupid that some schools are taking out sex ed in hopes of keeping teens from getting pregnant.

I can not disagree with what else you have said, as seeing as it is logical and correct.

Originally Posted by Ari'iela

@Keyori... In saying you use three types of birth control I am hoping you will not say something along the lines of I use two condoms, one for him, one for me and a patch/pill/shot whatever

Condoms are a type of barrier. You're contradicting yourself. Two condoms =/= two types. It's two of one type, a barrier.

And for your information, I use a barrier method, a chemical method, and a natural method (the natural method for me is my own ovulation--I am a special case, with a condition that causes me to only ovulate 4 times a year if I'm not on any medication forcing my ovaries to do otherwise--this decreases the chances that, when I have sex, that I'll be ovulating).

Also, I've used the morning after pill, and those can fail too. So, in an emergency, I'd be using 4 different methods (of three different types). And if every single measure fails? I have to keep my baby, according to her. Which, at this point, would require me to drop out of school because I don't have the money to pay for even a midwife. Yeah, that's AWESOME. According to her, I'm going to have a $33,000 pregnancy instead of a $6,000 abortion. I'll be spending two years worth of tuition to have a child I don't want, and then deal with the fact that I have a child somewhere in the world and I have no freaking idea where that child is, if they got adopted, if they're better off with someone else, or any of those things. Oh, and I won't even be able to finish school, even though I'm only a year and a few months away from graduating. So all of that student debt I've built up is for naught.

Yeah. That's SUCH an IDEAL situation. Despite all of the precautions I took, I somehow "deserve" to get pregnant and am forced to carry an unwanted clump of cells. I don't give my consent for another living creature to use my body, but thanks to people like her, I no longer have a choice. Suddenly I have zero rights to myself because I am "unintelligent" and had a stroke of horrible luck, and she wants to place an additional burden onto an already failing welfare system. Oh, and my entire plan to be a contributing member of society instead of a drain on the welfare system is completely shot down because my choice was taken away.

Yeah. She's a great champion for humanity :sarcasm:

Oh, and then you say, "well just don't have sex!" Wow I wish I lived in the fantasy world you do. Sorry, but I value the relationship I have with my soon-to-be husband, and he values it too (that's kindof why we're getting married). I'm not going to ruin the relationship I have with the best person in my life because you tell me not to have sex. That's not how the world works. People have sex, and it strengthens their relationship. Sexual frustration can easily crumble an otherwise healthy relationship. Been there, done that.

So basically my options boil down to having a baby or getting a divorce! YEAH YOU GUYS ARE AWESOME KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK I CAN TELL YOU ARE DEFINITELY CONCERNED ABOUT THE WELL-BEING OF OTHERS!

.........

First of all. If you take every form possible to keep you from getting pregnant, and you end up getting pregnant. Then well. Have you ever considered the fact that maybe you are SUPPOSE to have the child?

And as far as dropping out of school goes. No. I don't think you should do that if you get pregnant in fact I know a lot of friends that are currently in college, and have two children and didn't drop out. The secret behind this. Having a family member watch the child while you are at school, or even believe this or not! But some school have day cares in them just for this reason.

At least in the country I live in.

Because believe it or not, we don't live in the 14th century anymore and aren't required to always drop everything once we get pregnant, we can still continue our dreams in life, with out having to give them up, and take care of the child we have.

Also it sounds as though you have now personally brought in thoughts, anger, emotions and biased opinions now onto this topic and therefore it is no longer considered a debate. If you want to take this as a "YES! I WIN!" then go right ahead I will not stop you. But I ask the same question before.

Most women might say they are willing to have an abortion but I am going to ask the same question that I asked a friend of mine last night when she mentioned it. Could you really? Knowing that something is inside of you, and is now apart of you, could you kill that being that is apart of you because you slipped up and got pregnant?

If you think of life as just a cluster of cells then I am sorry you think that way, but something that is living, and breathing to me is not a cluster of cells.

And at least you use the smart method of birth control. I know some who use the "Honey are you close to ejaculating right now?" And then if they say yes, they push them off. Which of course. Doesn't work.

And for the record. She does believe in abortion and making it seem as though she is pro life fully is not what she said at all.

@Ari'iela- Many doctors will refuse to perform sterilization on people who do not already have children. So getting sterilized works for married couples who have already had children, but if they just don't want kids they're fucked. :\

Also, the morning after pill is not totally effective (only around 90%) and it only applied to people who have had unprotected sex or a condom break. If you're on birth control, and it fails, you won't know until it's already way too late for the morning after pill.

Abortions do not make you less able to carry children, by the way. An abortion will only affect your ability to have kids if something happens to get damaged during the procedure. Now, having many abortions makes your chance of this actually happening go up, but it's a very rare thing anyway. Otherwise there wouldn't be a statistic for women who have had 4+ abortions.

edit: What do you mean, SUPPOSED to keep the child? What does that even mean? Why am I supposed to keep anything? o_o

What's the secret behind having a family member that is willing and able to care for a child while you're in school? Being a student in college can be a full time job in itself, and a good support system that can help balance a child with school is a luxury not everyone has. Do you really think that someone can take care of an infant all on their own and still somehow manage to go to school seven hours a day?

Also, how can a fetus be living and breathing? It's in a sac full of amniotic fluid! xD
Sorry. I just thought that was kind of funny.

i think that it's wrong to judge someone else who chooses to have an abortion, when you haven't been in the same situation, so you don't know how it feels. and that no child should be born to a mother that doesn't really want it

Originally Posted by Fabby

@Ari'iela- Many doctors will refuse to perform sterilization on people who do not already have children. So getting sterilized works for married couples who have already had children, but if they just don't want kids they're fucked. :\

Also, the morning after pill is not totally effective (only around 90%) and it only applied to people who have had unprotected sex or a condom break. If you're on birth control, and it fails, you won't know until it's already way too late for the morning after pill.

Abortions do not make you less able to carry children, by the way. An abortion will only affect your ability to have kids if something happens to get damaged during the procedure. Now, having many abortions makes your chance of this actually happening go up, but it's a very rare thing anyway. Otherwise there wouldn't be a statistic for women who have had 4+ abortions.

Yes, I know about the morning after pill. Trust me. Unfortunately I've had to use it before.

Actually they do make it less able to carry children. Because of possible scaring of the tissue in your uterus. It might be true that there are lucky people who can still have children in the long run, but if you go off and use abortion as a form of birth control all the time, you are going to mess up your body.

Edit: I was more or less being a smartass. That is something I do. And yes, I do believe that someone can take care of a child and still go to school. I've seen it happen. My high school was FULL of pregnancies and women who were taking care of children. To be honest. My graduating year almost everyone had children, or were pregnant.

But damage to the uterus/cervix is not a common phenomenon during abortions. A few women may come out unable to conceive, but most of the time there's no damage at all. Like I said, obviously you have a higher probability of damage to your lady-parts if you have more abortions, but that does NOT mean that many abortions = no babies.

Damage doesn't happen at all during a medical abortion, so you could have as many of those as you please and still get pregnant.

Someone can have a baby and still go to school if they have a good network of other people to rely on and that was my point. Not everyone has family members or friends they can use as babysitters. Apparently the people in your high school do but that is not the case for everyone.

Originally Posted by Fabby

But damage to the uterus/cervix is not a common phenomenon during abortions. A few women may come out unable to conceive, but most of the time there's no damage at all. Like I said, obviously you have a higher probability of damage to your lady-parts if you have more abortions, but that does NOT mean that many abortions = no babies.

Damage doesn't happen at all during a medical abortion, so you could have as many of those as you please and still get pregnant.

That is a very valid point, I can not disagree with that in anyway shape or form. I was just using things as an example, but unlike some people that I have noticed, they don't know when to back down and been wrong on a topic. I shall back down right now and say that you proved a very logical point and I can see where you are coming from on that. However I do not change what I have said on some of my other things until someone else is logically point things out. Like you have done.

Edit: I giggle at how we are playing the edit game XD Anyways. Yes you are right. Not a lot of people have people to turn to. But you can still take care of a child, and stay in school. I mainly say this if you are over the age of 18 and live alone or have a boyfriend/girlfriend, fiancee, husband or whatever to help take care of the child. If the schedules clash, then it is simple. Change your college classes to where they match up. If anyone tells me that they can not do that. I don't believe that for a second, seeing as most colleges have night classes. Also jobs and schools are very flexible now days to people who have children.

Originally Posted by Keyori

Oh, and then you say, "well just don't have sex!" Wow I wish I lived in the fantasy world you do. Sorry, but I value the relationship I have with my soon-to-be husband, and he values it too (that's kindof why we're getting married). I'm not going to ruin the relationship I have with the best person in my life because you tell me not to have sex. That's not how the world works. People have sex, and it strengthens their relationship. Sexual frustration can easily crumble an otherwise healthy relationship. Been there, done that.

So basically my options boil down to having a baby or getting a divorce! YEAH YOU GUYS ARE AWESOME KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK I CAN TELL YOU ARE DEFINITELY CONCERNED ABOUT THE WELL-BEING OF OTHERS!

Excuse me. Who are you to say that I am not concerned about the well-being of others? Did someone give you a stamp to judge someone? No. I think not. K? K. Also do not give me this little kid talk about how sex works in the real world when I have my own soon-to-be husband as well. Did I say that I wanted you to ruin your relationship? Um no. I was simply stating that if you turned around and had a child after taking all the precautions that you do, that there might be a reason for you to have a child.

Then again, silly me for being brought up that in the ways of everything happens for a reason. Also. You do not know my personal thoughts on this matter so get the hell of my back.

Congrats on being engaged though, I hope you two have a good engagement and a good marriage. I am not here to make enemies in this topic. Thus the reason I was avoiding it after I saw it. I was just sick that people were putting words in peoples mouths.

Now before I offend you anymore, as I can see I already have and I am sorry that I did. I was not meaning to.

Also last I checked. Real love, doesn't need sex. -signed both Raeillieagh and myself.

While it might strengthen it. So does other things. I might not get to have sex with my guy as much as I want (Hell that is really never. Seeing as he works all the damned time), but do I love him any less. No. I don't, and we don't always need sex either.

Originally Posted by Keyori

$6000 abortion

Excuse me?! Where do you live?! O_o;; Abortion in MY state was $440.00 last year! And this was without insurance too, as abortion clinics do not take insurance. For some stupid reason, insurance doesn't cover it so my mom and I paid $440 out of pocket.

As for the pregnancy, I don't know how much it costs. My mother, because she had no insurance, ended up spending $185,000 on her pregnancy which included the giving birth process, the heart surgery, the three months in the incubator, and the six months of physical therapy. I don't know how much it costs to actually give birth by itself -- but if it's expensive like you said it is...I might as well try giving birth on my own, I can't afford to get pregnant (I had thought the birth process was free or relatively cheap).

@Ari:

Sorry I didn't know your full name.

Although you make some viable points, you can't exactly come into a debate and expect people to NOT get emotional. The people going for abortion are usually pro-choice or people that have gotten abortions or have children of their own. The people against abortions are usually pro-lifers with children or people that aren't parents yet.

Many of the pro-lifers, while their hearts are in the right place, cannot keep an open mind in regards to abortion and mistakenly call it murder. Unless you are more than 18 weeks pregnant, it is not murder. Most people that have abortions do so before the fetus stage starts, usually when their "baby" is still a zygot. When I went to the abortion clinic, the doctors told me that they usually get teenage girls that are about 6-8 weeks pregnant, only a few are longer than that.

When you are 6-8 weeks pregnant, the "baby" is just a zygot and had just barely formed a beating heart. If I recall, it doesn't have any other organs, I don't think the brain starts at 6 weeks, or that they have a coherant thought at that young of an age. Zygots and Fetuses are not considered as a living being to most people. So obviously, you are going to touch some heartstrings when you accuse people that underwent abortion as murderers or even try to get them to give up their child.

@Leenalia- Yes. This is true. In all truths. I am pro-choice but also pro-life. If people have abortion, I would not call it a murder at all. And also, yes you are once again. Correct. I don't see where I refered to anyone as a murder. I would never judge someone like that. Ever. It isn't my place to do that. Thus the reason I can no be a judge. I was just simply trying to white knight someone. Because words were being placed in someones mouth and that wasn't fair nor right. No matter who you are, the moment words get put in someone's mouth I will usually say something. I still do not see how a person could use abortion as a form of birth control. So as I said to someone else earlier. Seeing as you made a good point, and I see things from your point of view. I back down. But I can not see how someone can always use it as a form of birth control. It doesn't seem right to me.

The arguments against abortion are pretty much all moral based. Well you know what, if you believe abortion is wrong than don't do it when you get pregnant. Don't force your belief on others. All this comes down to is the woman's choice though. It seems that even if it endangers the life of the woman, they would still go through with it. Well you would have a motherless child as a result and probably fatherless as well.

I'm sick of repeating myself, so I'll just point anyone just coming in to the last 10 pages of debate and leave it at that.

Originally Posted by Ari'iela

First of all. If you take every form possible to keep you from getting pregnant, and you end up getting pregnant. Then well. Have you ever considered the fact that maybe you are SUPPOSE to have the child?

Uh, no, I'm NOT supposed to do ANYTHING that I don't want to with my own BODY.

Are you going to go around telling girls they were SUPPOSED to get raped when they took all the precautions they could short of staying home and never going out?

Originally Posted by Ari'iela

And as far as dropping out of school goes. No. I don't think you should do that if you get pregnant in fact I know a lot of friends that are currently in college, and have two children and didn't drop out. The secret behind this. Having a family member watch the child while you are at school, or even believe this or not! But some school have day cares in them just for this reason.

You know what? IT WOULD BE ABSOLUTELY GRAND if, under those circumstances, it were possible. But I cannot afford to have a child and go to school. I also cannot afford to extend my graduation date. If I had no choice but to have the child, I'd miss too much school to be able to finish on time, so I'd wind up dropping out just short of graduation on account of having no money.

I live 120+ miles away from my nearest relative. So that's out of the question.

Oh, hey, my college doesn't have a day care either. That might have something to do with the fact that only 23% of students at my college are female, and our needs on campus don't really get catered to, but again, thanks for thinking I live in a perfect world.

P.S. You're even assuming I keep the child! But I wouldn't. I DO NOT WANT A CHILD. So at the end of the day, I'd be short an education AND a child. Why not just be short a child at a fraction of the cost? Oh, and the welfare system would be short a child too! I'm the one doing society a favor by aborting, not anyone trying to force me to do things with my body that I don't want to.

Originally Posted by Ari'iela

Most women might say they are willing to have an abortion but I am going to ask the same question that I asked a friend of mine last night when she mentioned it. Could you really? Knowing that something is inside of you, and is now apart of you, could you kill that being that is apart of you because you slipped up and got pregnant?

Oh yeah, I just "slipped up" and now my whole life is fucked because I had my choice taken away? No, it's not that simple.

And yes, I would abort. Would it be an easy decision? Absolutely not. Would it affect my emotions? I'd consider myself crazy if it didn't. Will I need therapy to help deal with the psychological consequences? Probably!

And it's not "a part of me." It's not my arm, it's not my leg. It shares some DNA with me, but that means nothing. My brother shares DNA with me too, but he's not "a part of me." My parents each share DNA with me, but they're not "a part of me." Do I care about them? Absolutely. But they're not a part of me, and if they used my body without my consent I'd be just as likely to do what I could to stop them. Are you suggesting that just because my brother shares some DNA with me, that he has the right to rape me? I mean, he's "a part of me" by your definition.

Originally Posted by Ari'iela

If you think of life as just a cluster of cells then I am sorry you think that way, but something that is living, and breathing to me is not a cluster of cells.

Wow, you need to go take biology. Paramecium are alive, and they're just one individual cell. So of course life is a cluster of (living) cells (and in some cases only one!).

The question here is when personhood begins, not "life." We all know that life begins upon conception--an embryo is just as much alive as a mosquito, and yet most people don't hesitate to swat a mosquito.

But, consider this: in several countries, and soon, in Texas, a mother who kills an infant less than 2 years old can be charged with infanticide instead of murder. Murder implies personhood, so by this definition, personhood does not occur until the age of 2. (personally I don't agree with this, but I'm just pointing it out as something for you to consider when you think about what the law should or does say)

Most states define personhood upon the point that the fetus is viable (typically 16-18 weeks--the youngest fetus to survive outside of the womb--even though viability in medicine has been established at 24-28 weeks, which is when the fetus has a 50% chance of survival). After this point (16-18 weeks), it is EXTREMELY difficult to obtain an abortion, and usually requires multiple doctor recommendations and a court order. Hint: you can't just do it for any darned reason either.

Also, an infant doesn't breathe until AFTER it is born. The fetus's lungs are filled with fluid until birth. Also, fetal lung maturity is at 32-34 weeks (and longer in higher altitudes).

Leena: Maybe that figure was a bit off, I was going off of some things I had heard (but the point stands that it's significantly less expensive than pregnancy and birth). I'll look more into it.

Oh, a quick search tells me that second trimester abortions can cost up to $5000. So, my $6000 is like a worst-case scenario (and the $33,000 pregnancy was a best-case scenario that had been mentioned earlier in this thread). In the absolute worst circumstances, I'd have to sell my car but would otherwise be able to carry about with my life if I had an abortion (my fiance has a car, so I could live with sharing one with him until we had enough money to buy one again). Not quite the case with pregnancy (well, if I drove a brand new Escalade or something, then maybe I'd be able to sell my car lol, but my car is old and definitely used, and I don't think it was even $33k new xD).

I think the reason your mom's was so high was because of the surgery and the extended hospital stay. Hospitals are thousands of dollars per night. And, you can only get your pregnancy-related medical expenses paid for if you qualify for help and if they actually have money available to give you.

Originally Posted by Keyori

Are you going to go around telling girls they were SUPPOSED to get raped when they took all the precautions they could short of staying home and never going out?

Oh yes. Thank you. Maybe I should go kill myself now in proof of you just now proving to me it was my fault that I got raped and see myself in that light. Thank you so much. As if this dirty feeling and the fact that I pushing everyone away wasn't enough. I appreciate this.

I mean after all. I was suppose to get raped. right? No. I never ever ONCE said that. No one deserves to get raped. EVER.

Also one more thing. I have never once stated my thoughts on the matter of abortion so putting words in my mouth is what you are doing. Want to know what I logically believe? I believe this.

If you can't take care of a child. Then get rid of it. BUT IT SHOULD NOT BE OVER ABUSED AND USED AS A BIRTH CONTROL TACIT.

Also I was being a smartass with the whole living and breathing thing. Something I do. I'm a smartass.

As for everything else, you also have proven valid points, and currently. I am in no shape and situation to go on and continue this. As seeing as I was using this to get my anger over issues off my mind and it didn't really work and I was more or less. "taking my anger out" on other people.

I believe I also said that I was sorry and did not mean to offend you in anyway.

I believe what she meant by maybe you were supposed to have the child, is that maybe whatever higher being we have wants you to have this child because of whatever reason. Maybe a life lesson, or maybe there is something in the future that you having a child would affect for the better? There are various reasons that one might be supposed to have something happen to them. She meant supposed as a way of saying that maybe someone or something Up There, meaning the higher up, thinks that it may be time to gift you with a child. She didn't mean it as a "You HAVE to have a child. You have NO choice in the matter." type thing. Try reading it right next time. =)

Actually, Ari'iela, most schools are wanting to teach abstinence only. And not the proper ways to protect yourself should someone choose to have sex.

I never said that I think that abortion should be a form of birth control, either. Getting pregnant consistently and using abortion as a method to keep from having a baby because you're too lazy to take birth control or to ask a male to use a condom is unacceptable.

I meant that a woman should be able to, should she get pregnant, decide what to do about it. Again, it's none of anyone else's business if the woman wants an abortion or not. As long as she does things legally and safely.

They make female condoms. THEY DO EXIST!

Raeillieagh, not everyone believes in a "higher power", honey. So saying that a higher power is saying you have to have a baby is quite pointless if the woman does not believe.

Also, I'd never want to tell that to a young girl or any woman who'd been forcefully impregnated.

Originally Posted by Flink

Actually, Ari'iela, most schools are wanting to teach abstinence only. And not the proper ways to protect yourself should someone choose to have sex.

I never said that I think that abortion should be a form of birth control, either. Getting pregnant consistently and using abortion as a method to keep from having a baby because you're too lazy to take birth control or to ask a male to use a condom is unacceptable.

I meant that a woman should be able to, should she get pregnant, decide what to do about it. Again, it's none of anyone else's business if the woman wants an abortion or not. As long as she does things legally and safely.

They make female condoms. THEY DO EXIST!

Raeillieagh, not everyone believes in a "higher power", honey. So saying that a higher power is saying you have to have a baby is quite pointless if the woman does not believe.

Also, I'd never want to tell that to a young girl or any woman who'd been forcefully impregnated.

I agree. I am sorry that I mis understood what you said and I am glad that you don't see it as a form of birth control. However as sad as this is, there are going to be the people who will try to do that.

Also your female condoms line made me laugh.

I don't believe however that she was saying that she would say that to someone was forcefully impregnated. Why that was even thrown in there from the start I do not know as seeing as I am one who strongly believes if a woman is raped and gets pregnant she can do as she wishes. Well. Not killing herself but, I am sure you understand what I am saying.

Also in all fairness, she also herself said that she was pro-choice when it came to rape as well.

As I have said, I am not going to state my beliefs in here at all, because I see them as my own and don't feel the need for everyone to know them, but people assuming things and twisting what I say, is not really well. Right. So thank you for not doing that.

I went to watch a movie, sorry for being absent to respond.

Raeillieagh: As a matter of fact I do believe in a higher power, but one that is much more laissez-faire. Regardless, Abrahamic religion dictates that people still have a choice, and I'd like to have the choice to abort if I want to, thanks.

Ari'iela: I'm sorry you're having personal issues that are causing you anxiety or whatnot, but maybe what you're going through is better taken out in Life Issues instead of here in Debates.

To the thread: I thought of a few things while I was out. As Kris has mentioned several times, abortion is really the only way to end an unwanted pregnancy (whereas adoption implies carrying out the pregnancy, and is not really an end, so I'm going to leave that out as an option at the moment).

There are several couples that use in vitro to try to have children. I'm not very well-versed on this subject, but I do know that embryo are frozen and kept for the mother to use should a pregnancy fail.

Based on this information, I have a couple of ideas as alternatives to abortion (as there will always be unwanted pregnancies, which we can certainly reduce the number of through comprehensive sex education, but not ever completely eliminate).

For women whose pregnancies are ill-timed (for example, Molly, who had to end two pregnancies for the benefit of her current children): why not do research on freezing the embryo to use for later? It'd be like hitting a "pause" button on the pregnancy. The fetus doesn't die, and the woman can still have the child later. I realize that there is likely a strong correlation between the age of the fetus at the time it is removed and the likelihood that it can be salvaged later, but I don't believe that we've hit the technological ceiling on this yet. Cryogenics is still relatively new, and I think this could be a suitable application and a good middle ground for both sides (as most pro-choice women, I'm sure, would like to have children eventually, but under more ideal conditions later in life perhaps).

For women who have already had enough children: remove the fetus and use it for research (which would likely result in the death of the fetus), or put it on the "market" as one would an adoptable infant. I'd prefer the former over the latter, since giving it up to someone else would generate a market for women to produce "desirable" offspring for other people. To think that such a woman would go completely uncompensated in the end (whether legally or not) I think is a little naive, so I wouldn't prefer this option. However, I can see how the same pro-lifers would oppose fetal research, even if it did result in significant leaps in stem cell research that is crucial to understanding how the body works on a cellular level, and eventually, perhaps a cure for different cancers or AIDS. These fetuses would also likely be used to help determine the viability of cryogenically preserving fetuses for the first option, the "pregnancy pause button."

Personally I can't see much of an ethical conflict for the first option of freezing the fetus for later. The most difficult part would be convincing people now to be able to use fetuses that would otherwise be destroyed in an abortion for research on this kind of technology. I'm sure there are a lot of people who find it unethical, but my opinion is that if the fetus would be destroyed anyway, this is certainly a better option as it will contribute to essentially saving lives that would otherwise be destroyed by abortion later on.

I hope my explanation was clear, if you need clarification on anything please let me know!

Using fetuses for research is a touchy subject and a whole new debate. But I will say the short of it is I'm all for it. Though, the research they use them for now is stemcell research which is for medical reasons, cancer, stuff like that.

On the freezing of eggs. Remember Octo-Mom? That's what she did. Granted she had about... what was it, six eggs implanted at once? But the reason she did that was because there's apparently a high risk for the eggs to fail. Which would be one reason women might not want to do that.

Another reason is it's probably really costly, thought maybe not if Octo-Mom afforded it. I thik she was rather broke at the time and during the whole process.

My thoughts on the "higher being" thing wasn't that she would actually -support- saying that to a rape victim. Sorry if I came off that way. However, I do think the religion thing should be saved for the family/parents of the woman who is pregnant, since no doctor has the right to tell a woman that she's pregnant because someone or something she can't see deemed it the "right" time for such a thing to happen.

Cost is something I didn't really want to go over, since abortion would still obviously be the most cost-effective solution to ending a pregnancy. I guess I should have added a stipulation that saving the fetus for later should be covered by insurance, but there's no telling whether or not that would actually happen. We'll have to take baby steps first, but since I see this as the more "ethical" thing to do with an embryo, perhaps it will be a good viable option in the future that insurance companies will be more willing to cover. And that's ignoring that many women of child-bearing age are generally uninsured.

Perhaps that, as the technology progresses, the cost will fall significantly enough to be a practical solution, but there's really no telling beyond personal speculation.