But I have nothing interesting to say about comic books! quit disenfranchising me.

*slap* get yourself together man! Do you not read them? like even manga? Do you write? Do you draw? Those fall under the category enough I think.

We're allowed to talk about things that aren't comic books. xDD

While I agree that a hero doesn't kill people, its also kind of a sickening optimism for humanity to assume that every protagonist is a hero. While the ideal outcome for a story is that everyone gets their dues without losing their morals, if someone should be murdered at the hands of the protagonist it can be a very humanizing moment for the hero. Sometimes you can't control what a character does. I know I sure can't. xDD


Subject of military: I understand and honor the purpose of the military, though I take issue with some of the orders they've been carrying out. Pretty much everything that Taiyo said, I agree with.

I did used to read manga. Shojo stuff. But not too shojo, I suppose. Aside from a subscription to shojo beat magazine. Ok, that's actually pretty shojo. Shojo.

I have two that I haven't finished yet, and I should, because the are worthy of it. Angel Sanctuary. That thing is an epic. And Cantarella. The Borgias fascinate me so much.

The thing of it is, War is War. Not a blasted game. It is, and should be absolutely terrible. It should be total war, or no war, and that's why it should be a last resort you know?

I don't think we are going to completely agree on this lol.

I feel like... I want to give you a small baked good, Hyena. You are just a maker of astounding posts :)

Originally Posted by Hyena

We're allowed to talk about things that aren't comic books. xDD

While I agree that a hero doesn't kill people, its also kind of a sickening optimism for humanity to assume that every protagonist is a hero. While the ideal outcome for a story is that everyone gets their dues without losing their morals, if someone should be murdered at the hands of the protagonist it can be a very humanizing moment for the hero. Sometimes you can't control what a character does. I know I sure can't. xDD


Subject of military: I understand and honor the purpose of the military, though I take issue with some of the orders they've been carrying out. Pretty much everything that Taiyo said, I agree with.

I'm not sure, because I think heroes CAN be killers, but I think it matters why they kill, and who they kill. And I think sometimes there's a blurry line between hero and villain protaganists. And yes, you somteimes can't control your characters. They have their own minds!


I feel exactly the same way about the military. I agree with their purpose, but not all the things they do.

I personally read a lot of comics, but I lack in the art department, so maybe I'll find someone who can draw someday and team up with them. I have about 40 comics I'm currently reading, although not all of them are updating.

FAIRYWAIF HAS JOINED THE THREAD! -celebration-

fairywaif: you do make a good point. I suppose that a hero CAN be a killer, but generally someone who kills even if in the name of JUSTICE or something will ultimately be seen as a killer. Its kind of the way that society seems to go: even if the victim is a morally corrupt person and killing him will save the world, the person who killed him will suffer greatly from that single act. It was one of the major conflicts in Avatar: The Last Airbender. The act of killing someone is either punishable, or the killer punishes himself for his temporary loss of moral.

Of course, its not how it ALWAYS goes (sometimes they're seen as a war hero and are greatly rewarded) but then you have things like Macbeth, where even though someone is celebrated as a war hero he eventually meets his downfall. Makes for nice multi-layered writing, I think.

Taiyo: Huh? What? No, I agree that war should be taken as a last resort and that if we put our noses into the business of other countries it ceases to be a peaceful presence and eventually becomes an instigator. I'm confused. What are we arguing about?

Biggles: I had a friend who was really into Angel Sanctuary. I never really got into it because... well... she went on-and-on-and-on about it and didn't actually tell me what it was about. Something about angels and incest.

Ooo! Baked goods!

@ Hyena: I honestly forget....

Something about the military. o_o

I just think its kind of funny how he was like Military = Superman. Yes. An entire group of people with faults of their own are equal to one Superhero who is so overpowered that they just keep inventing NEW superpowers for him.

Like Superweaving.

He can do that.

I'm glad my joining is so triumphant. :XD

Well, I think that fact that the killer punishes themselves if they're a hero is what makes them such. They feel the guilt, and society doesn't have to make them pay an additional price, necessarily. Villains don't feel guilt, so they need outside punishment.

Superweaving. Man, they come up with the most ridiculous things. And apparently at one point there was even "super pets"

Agreed. There are many things that make a hero. I think that's one of those... themes people keep talking about.

Yes. Superpets. Super-dog, Super-monkey, Super-cat, and Super-horse. Whole issues dedicated to them. xD

Yeah, it's one of those theme-thingys. I think that's what can make a story interesting, is seeing how many qualities of a hero you can add or subtract and have a character that's still interesting.

*is dancing to Butterfly*

The whole "hero does something evil" can be interesting. One of my favorite parts in Yu-Gi-Oh is when Atem played the Orichalcos, and when Judai became the "Surpreme King" in GX. I know it's dorky, but Yu-Gi-Oh is good!

Oh man, i totally need to finish that. I was in the middle of the Domino City arc I believe. But yes, i think the anti-heroes or the good heroes who have to do something that under other circumstances would be wrong are the most interesting!

Got that right. Which reminds me, I've really gotta finish my "Dark Yusei" drawing.

I mean everybody loves robin hood, despite the fact that he is an outlaw. The same thing for Ocean's 11.

I think in Death Note both L and Light can be called anti-heroes. It's really fun to watch, I still haven't decided which side I'm on!

Maybe I'm on both? I dunno yet....

I haven't watched the anime, but I read up to book 7 or 9 of the manga. (I forgot which one, I just remember it was odd.) I think I'm rooting for L though.

Oh I forgot the current big anti-hero House. Although FOX keeps shift between being true to Houses character, and making the fa House a perfectly functioning drug addict like he used to be.

VGRACEBUTTERFLY, WELCOME! (And thank you for setting up the tropes page... at least I'm assuming that was you. xDD)

In case you couldn't tell, I practically LIVE for shades of grey protagonists. xDD

I like to put all of my characters on the alignment grid: chaotic-lawful/good-evil. If I REALLY need to figure out where I stand on a character, I put them on that grid and that helps me figure out motive.

There was this guy I knew that put V (from V for Vendetta) as "Lawful Good." And I twitched because.... okay. I could see where he would be "Good." He does the things he does for the good of the people and whatnot. But I don't think that he took into account that he kills people. And this does not align him "Lawful."

I think that makes him "Chaotic Good." =D

Yes, fairywaif, and I bounced tropes off of each other to create it.

V is a Well Intentioned Extremist. I would not call him lawful by any respect though. He is out to kill the people that harmed him, not put them in jail as a lawful good might. He is definitely chaotic though!

The whole terrorism/freedom-fighter is a very interesting subject to look at. I think in general a "freedom-fighter" will not kill civilians, while a "terrorist" will. But that is a very general statement that I'm sure can be crossed depending on the situation.

Yeah, that would definitely be chaotic good. Where does lawful even come into that? Wow...

It was a combination of vgrace and me. We both sort of poured over it together.

I love shades of grey too. Especially when you put them up against a pure white or pure black morality character for comparison.

Nice. I've been trying to think of things to add to it. My fianceé put in her two cents a few times. I've been getting a surprising number of hits from tvtropes. xDD

I think I would classify V as a terrorist. He intends to strike fear in the hearts of the heads of state in order to suit his causes, noble though they may be, and one of his methods includes murder. According to the Wikipedia article on Terrorism : "Terrorist attacks are usually carried out in such a way as to maximize the severity and length of the psychological impact." I believe that was the intended result of his actions and because he did this as a conscious action that therefore puts him on that vague definition of a terrorist.

The kid that said this was an "Objectivist," which means (to put it in extremely simplified terms) that it isn't the thought behind the act that defines the person's moral standpoint; its the action itself. Which, in this case, he was doing it wrong because the act itself was killing people. The series of arguments I had with this guy was so mentally jarring that I decided to make a character out of him for The Bend. He should be arriving in a chapter or so. You'll know him when you see him.

I find it REALLY HARD to write 'pure white' or 'pure black' characters. My brain does mental backflips to figure out why someone became one way or the other and by the time I get done with their backstory, it stops being black and white. Even my villains have a healthy mixture of things driving them to be 'evil.' I may not reveal their reasons in canon, but to me just about everyone is a shade of grey. Kind of like my philosophy on life...

That's the way I see it. The webmanga I'm working on putting together right now is going to be mostly comedy, but in a couple others I'm polishing the storylines for they go much deeper into the whole "what makes a person good or evil?" thing. But if you put me on a chart, I know I might be good, but I'm not sure. On one hand, I don't think I could ever bring myself to kill another person, but on the other hand if I felt my life or the life of say, my child (while I don't have one), I MIGHT. Then there's the whole if someone's doing something that I believe is against the law, then I'd probably try my best to stop them without killing anyone.

Um...what does that make me?

I know that this isn't what we are talking about, at least not in a direct fashion, but grey is one of my favourite colours.
The question is, does that enter into my preference for characters. I do like realistic, ie. 'grey' ones.
Although. Although. I am a bit of a sucker for the innocents, sometimes. Ophelia is my favourite Shakespearean character. Yes, I ascribe to the Victorian account of her character.