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Elirona
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#1501
Old 07-08-2014, 11:30 PM

I kind of want to write a book, also. :P

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#1502
Old 07-09-2014, 04:46 AM

I probably have enough content to publish a book... but people don't really read poetry anymore.
And I really don't want to do book readings

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#1503
Old 07-09-2014, 05:40 AM

Well why don't you just quote the poems? That way people who do not want to read don't have to read and those who do may do so at their own leisure.

After all no matter how old Shel Silverstein's material is I still like reading it.

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#1504
Old 07-09-2014, 08:51 AM

Shel Silverstein was a god of poetry, in my opinion. He wrote so much of it, they had to cram it all into huge books, just so people could carry it all!

But really, you don't need to write huge books full of poetry to sell books of poetry. That comes later, when you sell your Collected Works or whatever. Focus on what it is, and what it means, and don't worry about having enough of it to present someone with. One poem can be as good as a whole book full, if presented properly.

Poetry is one of those art forms that if you dress it nicely and give it wide margins and a few tasteful accents, like you're presenting a work of art, people will buy it.

I've often bought small, thin books of people's poetry or even just their philosophical musings, to read in my spare time or in a park or whatever.

People who like poetry have a different sort of lifestyle, I think, at least mentally, and some of them would rather have a really nice little book with 20 or 30 really meaningful short poems than a telephone directory-sized volume.

It's really all in how you present it, and how it's marketed.

I have several volumes of children's stories, and each is thicker than a textbook, pages crammed with text, and these days they go for fifty cents at used bookstores or thrift shops. Large, bound collections of poems or stories are usually filled with a person's previously published, popular works.

I go to a store selling new children's books, and each book is one story, sometimes no more than twenty pages, with illustrations.

They're going for quality, not quantity, it isn't just about teaching kids to read anymore, it's about helping them to love art, and that's what you use to sell poetry.

If you can write a poem that someone else likes, you can convince someone else to present it nicely enough to make you both some bucks off of it. It just takes some doing, but what else are we in this world for, if not to do things?

Last edited by Ermahgerd Berks; 07-09-2014 at 08:56 AM..

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#1505
Old 07-10-2014, 01:45 AM

20-30 is a bit difficult though.
I am a perfectionist poet. I have poems I've been writing on for 7 years and they're not complete. they're just not good enough yet to my standards. they must be flawlessly flowing and yet able to invoke whatever I desire in the reader

I have maybe 5 poems up to par. (of about 100... those being the ones lucky enough to not end up shredded and thrown in the trash)

@ sailor - what do you mean by quoting them?

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#1506
Old 07-10-2014, 04:37 PM

My AP English teacher in high school was writing a book of poetry as part of her graduate program. I've read some of her stuff! It's really good. She may have published it since I left high school. :u But anyway, I like writing poetry, sometimes. I like writing imitative poetry! My two best poems are both imitative. I wrote them in the style of e.e. cummings, who is my favorite poet.

I actually know a children's book author! She worked at my town's public library for a while. I actually read her rough draft. :3c Her book is Summer Jackson: Grown Up. It's pretty cutesy. The moral of the story is that enjoy childhood while you can.

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#1507
Old 07-11-2014, 02:41 AM

I knew a published author. she was my mother in law until she died shortly after that.

I think my most favored author was poe.

pff screw enjoying childhood. I'm not growing up!

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#1508
Old 07-11-2014, 11:13 AM

Yeah, I agree with that philosophy, Poet. :P

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#1509
Old 07-12-2014, 05:49 AM

The vast majority of what I've written has gone into the trash.

If I hadn't thrown it all away, I'd have had no room (both figuratively and literally) for anything new or fresh.

Believe it or not, perfectionism is often secretly considered a mark of the amateur by professionals. It's like getting hung up on making a perfect painting the first time, and it comes out a bit off, and so it's painted over a dozen times, and each time it's even more disappointing...

I would say, the most important thing when learning to write well is to write a buttload. A metric butt-ton of writing is about enough to reach the point where you can feel any real satisfaction and say your own work is good enough.

We're our own harshest critics, but at some point we have to come up off of ourselves and realize what writing is really all about.

Expressing ourselves in this moment, in a form others might want to look at later.

Getting over trying to be perfect, we free ourselves to become the real masters of our art forms. It's not about defining our self-ideas, it's about expressing our real selves.

I've never written a story which, upon examination, didn't turn out to be some fictionalized version of my own life, told through the typing fingers of my writer self. Maybe not the outer version of it, but the inner version of my life shows through in everything I've ever written.

Even the stuff that wasn't even good enough to warrant a second look.

The difference in what I now consider my good writing versus my crappy writing is the difference between expressing myself and the things in my life in an artistic way, as opposed to trying to write my own story the way I think it should be, i.e., perfect.

Last edited by Ermahgerd Berks; 07-12-2014 at 05:52 AM..

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#1510
Old 07-12-2014, 09:50 AM

I get perfectionist in my work because I personally would not release anything but the best. When I write a poem if I don't like it, I don't want to share it.
I have seen so many crap authors these days that I can't help it...

We have these Authors that aren't even talented making best sellers...

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#1511
Old 07-13-2014, 08:07 AM

I've never written a best-seller, but apparently people who buy trashy dime novels find mine to be at least as satisfying as the latest 99-cent diet books.

If I only released things that I thought were better than everyone else's, I'd have starved to death by now. XD I personally think I'm the worst author in the business, but I'm not the only writer who feels like that about their work, so it's okay.

I can't recall meeting a single artist or writer who has ever been totally satisfied with any of their own work, and yet, some of them liked my stuff more than theirs, and I liked their stuff more than mine.

The idea of only showing what you consider your very best work is like cheating people out of the chance to decide for themselves which works they like better. I've written things I thought were god-awful, and people liked them better than the stuff I thought was at least somewhat good.

Everyone's tastes are different, you know? I might like 6 or 7 of someone's books, and then hate one, and then like the next one again, and I call the one I didn't like their worst. Then someone tells me one I thought was the best was the one they didn't like...

I'd say if you're writing only for your own personal satisfaction, then hey, make it exactly what you want it to be, to the best of your ability, and don't settle for anything less.

If you're writing for others, let them see as much of your stuff that you're not completely embarrassed to let them see, and listen to what they say about it, and then you'll have a different view of your stuff.

Pretty sure that's the best advice I can give, and I do hope I don't sound too preachy or anything, I know it's crappy to be preached at.

*really just sincerely wants people to be happy with what they like to do*

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#1512
Old 07-13-2014, 04:49 PM

The reason I don't like them is because they are incomplete.
my poems have 2 requirements.
first it has to have a purpose. Easy enough to write.
Second it needs to flow properly. whether it is a broken pattern to symbolize a broken path or a smooth flow like a stream.
those are very important to me and must be perfect.

There are poems I Deem complete that I don't actually like :)

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#1513
Old 07-13-2014, 04:57 PM

There are people who've written hundreds of poems, and I only liked one of them.

Yeats is like that for me, I only like one of his poems, or at least only one of them really seems to resonate with me and make me feel. But that one poem, boy does it make me feel!

I'd say that even if you spend your whole life making only one poem, if it makes people feel, and feel the way you intended for them to feel, it was worth it.

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#1514
Old 07-13-2014, 05:04 PM

That's the goal. make them feel whatever I desire.
Once wrote a poem so morbid my teacher wanted to keep it XD
I think it gave her shivers.

I got an idea though I want to try with books. I want to encourage poetry.

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#1515
Old 07-13-2014, 05:20 PM

I think that's a splendid goal to have.

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#1516
Old 07-13-2014, 05:22 PM

So you make a living as an author huh? How exactly do you publish a book?

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#1517
Old 07-13-2014, 05:49 PM

First, you'll need to know something about each specific publisher you send your manuscript to. You can contact their phone-answering people usually, or email a rep, and they really don't mind helping with information, it's part of their job. Their website may even have a section for this purpose.

You'll need to either know the publisher wants work like yours, or convince them that you're something like what they already like. You're vetting them, and they're vetting you, simultaneously. Remember you're not a beggar and they're not a king, and you'll be taken more seriously. Ask questions, let them see you're shopping around fist, they'll respect it, or to hell with them anyway.

Be prepared to send your MS to every publisher who might be willing to accept your work, even if it's a long shot. The worst that will happen is they reject your work (or don't bother responding afterwards). Write more later? Send it to the same people who rejected your previous work, if they're still willing to talk to you.

A lot of it is done over the internet now, thank god, but I've had to mail MSs before, and some people don't even mail them back if you include postage, because they're assholes.

Some publishers don't want to pay for editing, so be prepared to pay an editor or do it yourself, and you'll need to know how and what to edit, based on your own experience as a reader of literature.

You may choose to do your own layout design, jacket design, etc., or have a skilled friend help out. Some publishers loathe this sort of thing, but if you know they like doing less of it themselves, offer it to them.

The more of the work you can do for yourself, the more money you can keep for yourself when it gets published. I do my own editing, unless they insist on a re-edit by their own staff or freelancers, and then I may or may not have any say beyond that point... I sometimes do...

I do as much as I can, and offer it all up as optional, as in, if they find it easier, they can go with this jacket design, or if they prefer, they may have their own made, that sort of thing.

Self-publishing is a huge hassle, but there are a few online companies who let you use them as a publisher while letting you keep control of your work. they even help you sell it, but ultimately, it'll be up to you to ensure your own sales if you go this route.

I sorta got lucky with Kindle Publishing, through Amazon, but I know one of their HR reps through a friend. Network, network, network. Do whatever it takes to make and KEEP good contacts. If they help you, send them a thank-you, something simple and not a lot to read, but enough to let them know they're appreciated.

Follow up every contact you make, to keep yourself fresh in their memory.

Whenever I get a payout, like a decent one, I send a thank-you card, and occasionally a small gift, something I know that person is fond of.

It makes a huge difference, believe me.

First-timers have it a bit harder than all that, but it's important to get your stuff visible in some way before the fact. They'll want to see more than just the one thing you say is worth their time, effort and money to put on the market.

There are lots of sites writers use for this (I'm on many of them, as someone else), but experience will help, and that takes some time. Do NOT give them a link to anything you've posted on an avatar forum, or similar, as they may not take it as seriously as you do. Your image in their eyes is the most important thing, next to you providing them with a marketable product. Do NOT take it personally, it's just part of doing business.

Above all else, don't get discouraged. A MS might be rejected a thousand and one times, but that thousand and second submission, it can pay off big time.

The most I ever got at once was about six thousand dollars in the form of an advance, for something I'd sent them twenty chapters of, and they liked. I'm really not a big-time writer, just another hack trying to make it without any other real life skills, lol. I might not have even gotten the advance, but they knew it was crucial to me, and I'd have withdrawn my submission and published it myself and starved if they hadn't given me some scratch to work with.

Don't expect advances, don't expect to be offered royalties, but don't be afraid to ask, either. The worst they can do is think you're off your rocker, but then a lot of writers are.

If nothing else, you eventually sell it, they give you some money, you spend it on a better computer (hopefully a monster of a writing engine), and everyone's happy as you flesh out your next release.

And an agent can really help a lot, but if possible, try to circumlocute such people once you know your work is acceptable. The more of your own work you do in getting published, the more money you get to keep when it sells.

Most important thing is to keep trying, and if nothing works, try it all over again, differently. But keep trying.

Oh, and as a side note, which can pay off dividends, submit your works to magazines. Even online magazines and sites. You may not make anything off this part of it all, or may get 50 dollars for a poem in a mag, but it gets your stuff out there, and builds your portfolio. The more you can show you've done, the more they'll want you.

And write, write, write! If it's not perfect, "throw it away" by submitting it somewhere you don't care much about, and then check back later to see if anyone cared. You might just be surprised.
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Last edited by VeraDark; 07-13-2014 at 06:04 PM..

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#1518
Old 07-13-2014, 06:54 PM

That's a lot of info. Unfortunately due to my social disadvantages i never managed to build connections properly. and now I'm struggling to figure out how.

As for "throwing it away". I would never post that stuff. I simply dissect it for good lines and toss the rest.

Also I could never let someone modify my writings. that would be like painting on another painters canvas. it's insulting. If they wanted me to change it sure but I have a style of writing that is my signature. to remove that would be like taking my name off it.

lots of good info though. tempted to actually self publish and sell a book just to get it out there. I don't need to make money off it. I just want people to read it.

As for "new computer" I actually do my best work old school. pen and paper.

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#1519
Old 07-13-2014, 07:11 PM

Be prepared to compromise a little if you want to succeed, but your willingness to stick to your principles is worthy of respect.

Explaining that it's your style is something everyone does, and pubbies scoff at it if they can, but poetry has an advantage there, in that a poem is considered far more sacred than a story, editing-wise.

Most of the quick pay I've gotten from writing was made by writing things to order, they want so many words and they have this many columns per page and want it like so and thus, and I do it, and they pay me.

You already know they see content as cheap compared to other things, but you learn to work with it, or around it.

Paper and pen are great, but they hurt my hands after a while, and typing was invented for a reason. The reason is that some people write buttloads, and they need their hands functional in order to do it.

Most often, you'll have to submit an electronic copy, anyway, so at least be prepared to scan pages, and make sure it's legible as hell, or they'll strike it out.

A basic understanding of what I call "draft-speak" is important sometimes also, the markup typesetters used to use for marking changes made or expected to be made to manuscripts. And never, EVER, send them your only copy, or your original copy of your MS.

Make a hundred copies if you have to, but keep all original work.

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#1520
Old 07-13-2014, 07:24 PM

I keep my poems short and sweet. I don't do that monolog junk. I don't have the attention span for it. I write a very compact poem. no fluff. This is something that has proven to make lyrical poetry VERY difficult. they typically have a lot of fluff.

they can scoff all they want but I don't need their money. The purpose is to draw people into my writings. to show them it doesn't take big words and lots of words to create a deep meaning.
I may have a big vocabulary but I prefer simply so that even a child can read most of them. Yet they are complex enough for an adult all the same.

commissioning a poem sounds like fun. but I'd probably rather do it on mene as freebies if I did. If I publish it's only the ones I feel Enrich the mind with imagery. perhaps even encourage them to pick up a pen themselves.

typically the only time I get rid of the original is if I A am giving it to the receiver as a gift. something I have done. This is typically the case with the poems I give on mene. I do not save them. It's up to them to save it if they want it. If not it disappears. or if I am B converting to digital storage.
The final final copy though is always on paper.

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#1521
Old 07-14-2014, 08:50 AM

There's a lot of opportunities in digital publishing, like e-books, and stuff, too, and it's getting easier to get published, and you can even do print-on-demand...

I forget sometimes how many options there are now...

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#1522
Old 07-14-2014, 05:52 PM

ebook would be nice, though I have various intentions with a book that would require a paper form. Granted I would be perfectly content printing and binding all the books myself if need be.

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#1523
Old 07-15-2014, 03:43 AM

Print On Demand is what you're looking into, then.

I've been doing online distribution lately, myself, and haven't done as much with POD as with e-publishing, but it's definitely the route to take if you wish to print your own and not spend a fortune doing it.

See, it used to be that you had to have someone willing to print and sell your work, or you had to pay for it all yourself, and then try and market it once you had printed a run. Now, you can write and design your book, people can pay to have a printed version made and delivered to them, and it cuts out the vast majority of the overhead usually involved in self-publishing hard copies ("real" books).

You can make a run of one, or of several copies at a time, or simply use it whenever you wish to provide a printed version of your book to someone.

I'd investigate that further, if I were you. It might be just the thing you're looking for.

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#1524
Old 07-15-2014, 05:52 AM

*sips coffee* Hrm.

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#1525
Old 07-15-2014, 08:03 AM

I'll have to do that... once I have room to write... this awful cramped room just wont do

 


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