The Originality of Christianity (omg another Christianity thread)...


Overview

I wanted to create a discussion about the originality of the Christian bible and its traditions. By this I mean how original is Christianity? Is it possible to trace the roots of certain aspects of Christianity back to older religions that predate it and perhaps inspired and influenced stories, beliefs and rituals that we find in Christianity.

Examples

1) Noah and Utnapishtim


In a biblical context we can draw parallels between the flood stories found in Genesis and the Gilgamesh Epic. Before we dive in, I'll briefly describe what is the Gilgamesh Epic. The Gilgamesh epic is an early piece of literature found on several tablets of stone. They are considered to be one the earliest examples of literature originating from the area of modern day Iraq, and parts of Turkey, Iran and Syria. The story dates from around 1300-1000 BC. The deluge story tells of us of the Gods who plan to murder mankind with a great flood. But one God warns a man, Utnapishtim who could be interrupted as the Bible’s Noah, about the Gods' plan to kill humanity. Utnapishtim in anticipation of the flood builds a boat and fills it with animals and supplies. When the storm comes Utnapishtim and his animals are saved from the flood while the rest of humanity is annihilated. After the storm Utnapishtim releases several birds to see if it is safe, one of which is a dove which of course is the bird that returns to Noah with an olive branch.
However there are differences between the flood in Genisis and the flood in Gilgamesh. A significant difference between the two stories is that one is polytheistic and one is monotheistic. The motives behind the deluge also differ. In Gilgamesh the Gods decide to kill humans with floods for no particular reason while in Genesis we are told that people drowned because of their wickedness. In another interesting turn the Gods in the Gilgamesh epic lament over the murder of mankind-

“The Mistress of the Gods wailed that the old days had turned to clay because "I said evil things in the Assembly of the Gods, ordering a catastrophe to destroy my people who fill the sea like fish."
The other gods were weeping with her and sat sobbing with grief, their lips burning, parched with thirst.”

Another interesting point is that “Gilgamesh Epic” is fashioned from an even older Atrahasis epic. So technically the Gilgamesh Epic is neither original but rather an account influenced by an even older account.


2) Jesus and Mithra

The second example I am going to offer up is an interesting yet controversial example that is highly debated which relates to the Christian Messiah Jesus and the Persian Sun God Mithra.
So who was Mithra? Well accounts of Mithra vary which makes writing about him difficult because there are different texts as there are different traditions of Mithra. Yet there is one account of his birth which is of particular interest which is that Mithra was born during the winter solstice to the virgin mother Anahita in the presence of shepherds and wiseman. He was born in a cave and was laid in a manger. When Mithra grew up he travelled the country with twelve disciples preaching and performing miracles. Mithra promised his followers immortality. He allowed himself to be sacrificed so that humanity could be saved and rose from his tomb three days later. His religion had eucharist based upon this and his resurrection was celebrated yearly.

The comparisons are somewhat staggering but so is the controversy surrounding it. The wikipedia entry for Mithra is somewhat contradictory to the above which indicates a Christian cover up, *tin foil hat*, or genuine/inconsistent lack of evidence. However there is archeological evidence which verifies some of points for example there is a Seleucid temple in Western Iran dedicated to the "Anahita, the Immaculate Virgin Mother of the Lord Mithras". Honestly I'm not even sure on this one. I threw it in as food for thought and if any one wants to expand or contradict what I've written go ahead.




TL : DR VERSION


Did Christianity copy it's shit from other religions, beliefs ect?????


Anywhoo discuss


*Examples of similarities between Christian and other religious stories, beliefs and rituals.

*How significant are these comparisons between Christianity and other older religions?

*Do these sort of comparisons undermine Christianity?

Well, honestly I don't think it's a matter of one religion 'copying' another.

Many figures from most religions are based or are stories of actual people; these people can exist in both religions even if they have been remembered differently.

Also, by my belief, all religions came from one initial religion, and later turned into individual religions as the human race spread out and diversified; While most things have changed, if they came from the same, some things should be the same.
I do believe there is some truth in all religions, God uses people, regardless of backgrounds, and may tell them all certain things. One particular thing I notice is very similar in most religions is the prophecies so to speak about the end of current times. Many religions actually describe very similar stories about the 'end times'

It's been a while since I've read much on the subject, but I studied this in some detail last year and A LOT of the information out there on Christianity having parallels to earlier religions is false.

A lot of the information apparently comes from a movie called Zeitgeist that has an entire part pretty much dedicated to proving that Christianity is all derived from earlier religions. If you look into it, though, the sources used by Zeitgeist aren't very credible at all. From what I've heard when I actually looked more into it, a lot of the pagan religions that seem to have deities with parallels to Christ actually incorporated Christian beliefs into their own mythologies much later on; the original myths about the same deities didn't have the same similarities that the later ones do. From what I've heard, the similar stories actually didn't start showing up until about A.D. 200.

@ - WinglessFairy

I think timescale would be the enemy of that particualar line of thought. Certainly two religions talking about a figure around the same time like the gospels in the new testament would be applicable. But creation stories that span centuries apart would be diffcult to determine. This could be down to lack of archelogical evidence, the Geneisis story may have existed long before it was formally written down- who knows. Although I would be inclined to agree that Genesis is based upon those Babylonian texts as those civilizations were the dominant cultures around that time and those texts would be very well known of.

@-The Half-Blood Princess-

I've never seen Zeitgeist before although I do remember when it came out loads of people were raving about it- probably because of all the drama it caused. I'm certain that Christianity has original aspects to its religion but I do believe that it has also been influenced by past religions, cultures ect. Noah's ark is considered to be based upon the Babylonian texts with a monotheistic twist by modern day scholars.

Well, I wouldn't think creation stories would be based on any text;
those kind of things were passed down as stories for several centuries before being written down.

And just because someone writes their version down first doesn't make it the first...

also all religions have taken something out of other religions somehow; being 'original' isn't what it's really about; it's about truth

I think you meant your topic to be more about the origins however so I've been centering on that

Originally Posted by WinglessFairy

Well, I wouldn't think creation stories would be based on any text;
those kind of things were passed down as stories for several centuries before being written down.

And just because someone writes their version down first doesn't make it the first...

also all religions have taken something out of other religions somehow; being 'original' isn't what it's really about; it's about truth

I think you meant your topic to be more about the origins however so I've been centering on that

If an event happens and you do not witness it, how do you know it actually happened? For example how do you know about second world war if you were not alive when it happened? It's through secondary sources like records, eyewitnesses, books, films ect, that we know about historical events. Likewise the people who wrote Genesis did not witness creation, they had to get their accounts from other sources. The point of the discussion is not to find truth but explore the cultures that existed before and around the time of when Christianity was formed and how that may have influenced aspects of Christianity. The thought that the roots of the flood story can be traced back over four thousand years to older civilizations is astonishing. The credibility of these different versions is an entirely different beast. I'm not here to determine which one is right or wrong. Like I said in previous post Genesis could have existed before these stories in one form or another before being written down formally. But it seems likely that it was probably adapted from these Babylonian texts.

The point I am making is that much of these tales wasn't written down for a very long time; Just because someone wrote it down first does not make it the original tale, or the origin of the story;
While yes, with things like WWII, even back to Babylonians times, events of that time were always written down;

but things such as the earliest religions, folktales, and creation stories were not written down for a very long time, and changed over the centuries as one storyteller told his/her version to others. What eventually was written down isn't the original story either.

Originally Posted by WinglessFairy

The point I am making is that much of these tales wasn't written down for a very long time; Just because someone wrote it down first does not make it the original tale, or the origin of the story;
While yes, with things like WWII, even back to Babylonians times, events of that time were always written down;

but things such as the earliest religions, folktales, and creation stories were not written down for a very long time, and changed over the centuries as one storyteller told his/her version to others. What eventually was written down isn't the original story either.

I'm not trying to find the very first story, remember this is a discussion about the originality of Christianity, not the origin of all religion. Different scriptures, stories and folk laws were written/recorded at different points in time in different places. So for example it is completely logical to say that Moses predated Jesus or that the Old testament predates the New testament. In view of this it is therefore possible that the Babylonian texts predates Genesis. Yeah, Genesis could have existed in oral form or in a text that we have yet to discover but it seems unlikely given the lack of archeology evidence, (so far there is 800-900 year gap between the written tablets of Gilgamesh to the earliest forms of the old testament, which is a huge time scale nearly approaching a Millennium).

Well, that's fine ^.^
I was just saying, we can't say for sure that they took bits of genesis from the Babylonian tablets or weather they were both routed from a same story;

though undoubtly I'm sure there was some culture mix considering the Israelites captivity there.

There's quite a bit of evidence that there was an actual flood long ago, so that wouldn't be so much copying as writing in real events with explanations of deities.

Although Christianity in particular liked to "rewrite " 'pagan' holidays to make their religion more acceptable.

Also, one could thinkign of it in the Jungian sense, where there are many things in common with people, and in the human journey.

well, the way I always saw it with the holidays thing is:
"I want more days off and fun times!"
"Oh, well there's this cool holiday...but it's for another God..."
"Let's make a celebration for our God on the same time frame so everyone gets the days off and fun times!"
"YAY FUN TIMES!"

particularly seen when Christianity was a minority, especially with those that happen at the same times as old Roman ones.

and, as Dr. McNinja's family has humorously done here

No, it's because they wanted their religion to be more acceptable, and they also thought if they covered the old holiday with their new one that the old one would just disappear. And usually they'd change the holiday at least a little bit, so it fit better, so it wasn't always just "they have a cool holiday, I want it too!"

I once tried to explain the whole Eostre (pagan celebration) => Easter/Jesus connection to my father's wife, and it was the most frustrating thing ever. I gave up.

I say, it's fine to believe in whatever you want to believe. But if you aren't going to be open minded toward others (especially about the TRUTH), and are going to act like a think-you-know-it-all just because the bible says so, you are living a very shallow existence.

Many religions share similar stories; whether or not they've intentionally copied eachother like Christianity seems it has done, I don't know. But they share universal messages, which is cool in my opinion. It's a means of connecting us all. At the same time, not many see it, and are not all accepting of eachother. That is the sad part.

Christianity didn't come around till Jesus came and died on cavalry. Jesus himself was Jewish. Christianity is basically the new testament, an extension of the old testament now that the finished work of the Messiah is done. So what you really need to be tracing is when did the Jewish faith start which according to our beliefs is the being of time ( i am Christian). Hope this clarify something ^^

Waif, yes, that too, but it's rather similar.

Voenne, but the point is we can't tell who copied who. It's not fair to say Christianity has copied, and then say but we're not sure if other religions have copied other religions...

and I'm sorry that a rather loud group of Christians have given everyone a bad look on Christianity, in that manner you have stated, often many of them stating things rather against or not even mentioned in the Bible, but we aren't all like that ):

and indeed, since Christianity is essentially Judaism with the addition of the fulfilling of the Messiah, you would need to start all the way back with Jewish beliefs

A story I know of is the story of Moses and the ten commandments.
The story is that a baby was left on the shores of the Nile and was adopted by an Egyptian princess. She named him Moses. He grew up as a scholar and eventually was told by god that he was an Israelite by birth and so he freed the slaves. When they escaped Egypt he was given the ten commandments by god. Ten ways to live a peaceful existance and gain entrance to heaven.
Egyptian records show differently. In Egyptian literature, Moses or Meses is a suffix meaning "son of". So for example Rameses, a pharoah was son of Ra, god of the sun. This is evidence of a biblical adaptation of a story, in which the character is named "son of". In texts, they talk about a scholar adopted by a princess named Thutmoses, son of Thoth, god of wisdom. When he grew older he lashe out against the temple he was part of and stole two tablets, sacred treasures supposedly from the gods. He then escaped with the slaves.

Religion is usually integrated with the past and nearby. Islam took some aspects of the Bedouins and followed Judaism and Christianity as well.

Eddie Izzard is a hilarious bit about all the similarities between Christians and Pagans