It's crazy to think this book has been out for over a dozen years and it's only now in the mainstream... and all because of a watered-down musical version of it.

I mean no offense to anyone who liked the musical, I just feel it was made too family friendly and therefore left a lot of the important messages out. :? But then the movie from back in the day was much the same. I didn't learn that until I was an adult and read the original stories (yes plural there's more than one).

I'd love to hear others thoughts on this wonderful book! I was particularly moved by the political and social topics that are relevant to even our society.

I loved the author's writing style and can't wait to get my hands on other books he's written!

And please if you're going to talk about potential spoilers for those still reading the book, post them between black asterisks and in white text. This way people have to highlight the text to access the spoiler.

* Like This! *

I enjoyed the book and loved the "her side of the story" spin on it, but felt a little let down at the end.

I'm reading it now and i have the cd for it but i haven't seen the musical but some of my friends have and they've said they love it

It never impressed me. Maguire took a classic tale and turned it into an overcomplicated adult tale of angst. There are so many plot holes that I'm amazed the thing ever got published.

The story was good until Elphaba left Shiz. From there, everything just went stagnant and fruitless. The plot went *poof* out the window (as if there was even a plot in there, but we had at least felt the ghost of one up until then). So many of the points brought up in the writing are meaningless and empty. What is the Time Clock? Yackle? So many things are thrown into the mix, but they are neither explained to the audience, recognized by the characters, acknowledged by the writer, or even related to the plot. They are simply elements to make the novel seem deeper and more complex. But never do they actually support the writing. Instead, they inhibit plot and character development.

And I completely disagree with how Maguire handled the maturity level of his writing. It's as if he wanted to write for adults but wasn't sure how, so he just threw in as much random sex and violence and vulgarities as possible. Come on, was bestiality really necessary? None of it contributed to the story in the least, and the characters learned nothing from it. All of it could have been taken out without effecting the story in the least.

I got the book for x-mas last year, and i really enjoyed it. I want to get the sequel too, though I've heard it's not that good.

I read it a good 4 years ago, and I hated it. I hated it so much. I'm pretty sure it's just the way it was written, as the premise was pretty amazing.

I saw the musical and then read the book. I was surprised at how different the two stories were. It was a wonderful story ^.^
Now I am reading the sequel Son of a Witch

Edit:
I guess I agree with Knerd though, there are many confusing parts to it. I haven't gotten very far in the sequel yet, but possibly the confusing parts will be further explained in it.

Originally Posted by Knerd

It never impressed me. Maguire took a classic tale and turned it into an overcomplicated adult tale of angst.

...

And I completely disagree with how Maguire handled the maturity level of his writing. It's as if he wanted to write for adults but wasn't sure how, so he just threw in as much random sex and violence and vulgarities as possible. Come on, was bestiality really necessary? None of it contributed to the story in the least, and the characters learned nothing from it. All of it could have been taken out without effecting the story in the least.

When isn't angst complicated? If it wasn't we wouldn't have it for long. Logic would kick in and we'd decide not to worry about things we cannot control. And ta-da, anti-depressant companies would be out of business, heh.

The connection is in the fact that everything was orchestrated by the wizard and his crew. There was a limited and merely perceived control of personal actions by each of the characters. Though an extreme scene (not quite as bad as a lot of people have painted, in the context of the story it was an Animal (sentient and almost human-like) and not an animal (is this any more shocking than a group of "furry" fans?) but I guess that's a technicality) anyway, without this event Tribbet would never have met up again with Elphie in the hospice ward which begins to lead to a reconnection with her old schoolmates. It also illustrates how different people dwell on and/or forget activities of ones "youth" as Alric could barely remember who had even attended that night.

I know a lot of people found the time jumps to be confusing and I admit there are some areas I would have preferred more detail in, but all in all I found it a fascinating twist of events with a lot of unspoken messages. There are seemly random events that in retrospect set in motion the core of the story. He writes like some of my favorite Brit authors and I dig that style.

I almost picked up a copy today.
I'm not entirely sure why, but I just haven't been able to bring myself to read this. I'm sure I'll be able to talk myself into it eventually.

Originally Posted by pbnj_dh

When isn't angst complicated? If it wasn't we wouldn't have it for long. Logic would kick in and we'd decide not to worry about things we cannot control. And ta-da, anti-depressant companies would be out of business, heh.

The connection is in the fact that everything was orchestrated by the wizard and his crew. There was a limited and merely perceived control of personal actions by each of the characters. Though an extreme scene (not quite as bad as a lot of people have painted, in the context of the story it was an Animal (sentient and almost human-like) and not an animal (is this any more shocking than a group of "furry" fans?) but I guess that's a technicality) anyway, without this event Tribbet would never have met up again with Elphie in the hospice ward which begins to lead to a reconnection with her old schoolmates. It also illustrates how different people dwell on and/or forget activities of ones "youth" as Alric could barely remember who had even attended that night.

I know a lot of people found the time jumps to be confusing and I admit there are some areas I would have preferred more detail in, but all in all I found it a fascinating twist of events with a lot of unspoken messages. There are seemly random events that in retrospect set in motion the core of the story. He writes like some of my favorite Brit authors and I dig that style.

You've got me leaning back and forth, because even though I completely disagree with you, I have to admit that you have some good points.

My problem with the writing is that these connections aren't made within the text, nor does the author put any effort into using them to develop the plot. All the elements are there, but instead of using them to his advantage, Maguire just let's them sit. The example you gave with Tribbet, for instance: Maguire could have used that main theme by bringing it into Elphie's consciousness and using it to justify many of her later actions, but instead it is up to the reader to decide whether it is even present in the writing.

Hmm, I'm having a hard time getting this into words: Maguire throws everything he can think of into his writing, but he doesn't provide the connections. In order to get anything out of the random jumble, the reader has to go the extra mile and form their own personal interpretation of every single event in the story. There's nothing wrong with asking the reader to form their own opinions, but rather than create consistent ideas throughout the novel, Maguire sheds the responsibility and takes the easy road. This personally bothers me.

((In reply to Vanila, from another topic)):

^^
I think that's right - Watermark. For some reason, I didn't know that it was to be called that, yet it still sounds familiar - as if I did indeed hear that it was to be called that... o.o -shrug-

At any rate, if it revolves around the Cowardly Lion, they still better remember... Err...
I'd rather not say what they -should- remember, since it's tied into the second book, but the point is that they should remember it!! D:<

To put that into calmer terms, I simply mean that they should still pick up where they left off; with the same characters and whatnot, primarily...

At any rate, I'm sure you'll enjoy Son of a Witch, and hopefully by then you'll also be able to get your hands on Watermark, or we'll at least hear more news about its release... 3:

Speaking of which - Wicked, the Musical...
Apparently, many stagehands quit or whatever just recently, forcing numerous Broadway shows that were either on tour or about to start their tour to close... :[
I feel bad for anyone who bought tickets for Wicked... It's just amazing...

Haha, sorry if I went off on a tangent...

*Well, first off, the point to a plot is for you to figure it out. Wicked may be fantasy fiction, but there are clues, hints, and whatnot throughout that add in an element of mystery and suspense... I personally was astonished by the book, as well as 99% of the people I know who read it.*

Originally Posted by Facade

((In reply to Vanila, from another topic)):

^^
I think that's right - Watermark. For some reason, I didn't know that it was to be called that, yet it still sounds familiar - as if I did indeed hear that it was to be called that... o.o -shrug-

At any rate, if it revolves around the Cowardly Lion, they still better remember... Err...
I'd rather not say what they -should- remember, since it's tied into the second book, but the point is that they should remember it!! D:<

To put that into calmer terms, I simply mean that they should still pick up where they left off; with the same characters and whatnot, primarily...

At any rate, I'm sure you'll enjoy Son of a Witch, and hopefully by then you'll also be able to get your hands on Watermark, or we'll at least hear more news about its release... 3:

Speaking of which - Wicked, the Musical...
Apparently, many stagehands quit or whatever just recently, forcing numerous Broadway shows that were either on tour or about to start their tour to close... :[
I feel bad for anyone who bought tickets for Wicked... It's just amazing...

Haha, sorry if I went off on a tangent...

It was originally called 'The Cowardly War', but her later changed it to 'Watermark'. I'm sure we'll find out why in the novel, yes? C:

Haha, yes. I wholeheartedly agree with you.
But do you know the cause of their(not sure if it's the right 'there'...) quiting?
Well, I do hope the people will get a raincheck or at least a refund, then. I've yet to enjoy the Broadway musical.

Hehe, I've no idea why... I just briefly saw the article online a few days ago, and well... I never bothered to read any further. Hehe. =P

They'll most definitely get a refund of some sort, or else they'll be getting endless calls, maybe even a few from lawyers... ;]

Ultimately - the book is better than the musical, yet I enjoy both; the musical has an amazing soundtrack.

I'm not reading nor have I read it,
but my sister has and she says that it's a good book. ^.^

It's an amazing book; I never knew until I read the posts in this thread that people were actually angered/disappointed in it...

In my opinion, there's no random sex or violence, or any vulgarities...
I imagine the most graphic anything got was when Fiyero was taking a crap in Elphie's chamber pot... >.>

i've always wanted to read this book,
but i never really had the time, or the
money to buy one >.>

i did recently see the musical, which
wasn't so bad in my opinion. i'm sure
not everything was included, usually
for something to be a success, they
have to sacrifice, or add-in information
just to do that. but overall i enjoyed
it =]

Okay, I have to admit it, I thought that the sex scenes and that one tiger scene a bit much. I'm pretty sure he could've done without half the sex in the book.
Even if I enjoyed the book, I agree with who ever said that the book just went down hill when Elphaba left for the Emerald City.

Ah, I read this book!

Personally? I loved it. I'm not the type of person to believe that a person who is "bad" doesn't have reasons for what he or she does, even though that might not justify what they do. ....I just don't like seeing people hurt, whether or not they're "good" or "bad" or even if they deserve it. It's a weakness of mine. I don't like seeing people in emotional pain.

But yeah, I did really love this book. I need to read "Son of a Witch" soon!

So many people have told me to read this book and I
haven't yet. >__< Gah, some day. Thanks for the reminder though.

Originally Posted by Knerd

It never impressed me. Maguire took a classic tale and turned it into an overcomplicated adult tale of angst. There are so many plot holes that I'm amazed the thing ever got published.

The story was good until Elphaba left Shiz. From there, everything just went stagnant and fruitless. The plot went *poof* out the window (as if there was even a plot in there, but we had at least felt the ghost of one up until then). So many of the points brought up in the writing are meaningless and empty. What is the Time Clock? Yackle? So many things are thrown into the mix, but they are neither explained to the audience, recognized by the characters, acknowledged by the writer, or even related to the plot. They are simply elements to make the novel seem deeper and more complex. But never do they actually support the writing. Instead, they inhibit plot and character development.

And I completely disagree with how Maguire handled the maturity level of his writing. It's as if he wanted to write for adults but wasn't sure how, so he just threw in as much random sex and violence and vulgarities as possible. Come on, was bestiality really necessary? None of it contributed to the story in the least, and the characters learned nothing from it. All of it could have been taken out without effecting the story in the least.

I agree with you completely. I found 'Wicked' completely without fluidity and consistency; the thing had pretty much no plotline. It was painfully poorly thought out and conceptualized; I believe that in a good piece of written literature every word should be carefully selected by the author and no facet of it should be without some type of relevance, meaning, or significance. There were large sections of that story that were focused on hugely, but seemed to have no importance later on. --- However;
It could be argued that it was because the book was meant to be the chronicle of a live, and not everything in a life that had importance will become important again later, and that is a valid point. But for a piece of literature... In the case of 'Wicked' I got bored and lost patience with the story.

On another note; I think it is absolutely despicable that people are able to take other people's characters, plotlines, and base ideas, rehash them, and publish it as their original work. Seriously, this book is published fanfiction, and I don't think that should ever be allowed; or at least not given professional recognition. The only reason the author of Wicked was able to get away with this, it seems, it because the original author of the 'OZ' books is dead. If he were alive, this would be counted as offensively forward plagiarism. Could you imagine someone using the names, places, and original plotlines of Lord of the Rings, making a fanfic, and then publishing it and getting international acclaim?
I think the line got blurred with people reworking traditional fairy tales. I don't really see such a problem with that; because if a story is documented only in oral tradition, then the original author is lost. But! In the case of 'Wicked', where the original conceptualizer of ideas IS known, it just seems like a really big scandal.

Like, I'd be pretty righteously ticked if somebody tried to do that to my characters after I died.

I've just started reading it. I'm on page 17, so I don't really have an opinion as of yet. Haven't seen the musical yet either, but I love the soundtrack, and have been listening to it quite often lately.

It is hard to read it after owning most of the original series though. The beginning already has me wanting to make the author revise his work in certain instances.

I'm getting it for christmas, and really looking forward to reading it. (:

At the beginning, I thought it was kind of confusing ;/ (for the book) But overall, I liked it. I also watched the musical, they both are very different. I didn't really like the musical ending though, her life overall was tragic, yet they end the musical with a happy ending, that, I didn't like. Unlike the book were it's not as cheerful and happy, it fits with the rest of the book, sad.

@Knerd: What you mentioned-- the major holes that Maguire leaves for the reader to fill-- that tends to be a theme in his books, from what I've observed. P: I've read four of them now: Wicked, Mirror Mirror, Lost, and Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister, which was by far my favourite. He did the same thing in all of them, especially Mirror, Mirror (an... interesting version of the Snow White tale, the most "interesting" bit to me probably being when she goes through all of her years in puberty in a very short time period, and he merrily describes the pain and the blood.).

However, even with all the crazy jumps, I liked Wicked. n_n I mean, I haven't read it in like two years, but... yeah. I think I remember being sort of disappointed with the ending. :/ As an actual novel, it lacked in some areas, but I loved the concept quite a bit.

About the musical: I haven't seen it, but I have the soundtrack because I love Idina Menzel. *Grin*

So I could not finish the book, but for some reason I love the music from the musical. I haven't seen it, I just hear it a lot on my Pandora account.

I wonder why, It seems so odd, as I really hated the book. Anyone have any ideas why this is?

edit whoops I for there is a book forum here, this needs to be moved. My bad.