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akinmytua 12-25-2009 03:46 AM

*snort* That's funny! Now Christmas revolves around children. I like that idea!

Nessie 12-25-2009 05:10 AM

yeah never heard of this before today/this thread either! thats really interesting :3

MedievalBeauty 12-25-2009 05:20 AM

Never heard of it,

EternalHearts 12-25-2009 03:08 PM


Greek and roman religion was very unlike what most people think of when they think 'pagan.' The Saturnalia was not a Solstice festival--in fact, the Greeks and Romans didn't commemorate the Solstices and Equinoxes as the northern Europeans did.

The placement of Christmas was likely due to the Roman Saturnalia, other traditions (like decorating trees) were incorporated as Christianity spread.

TECHNOlogic ANDROID 12-25-2009 07:19 PM

Wow....whats saturnus?

maidenroseheart 12-25-2009 07:34 PM

you know that's a good question...

wikipedia says....
Quote:

"Saturn is the sixth planet from the Sun and the second largest planet in the Solar System, after Jupiter. Saturn, along with Jupiter, Uranus and Neptune, is classified as a gas giant. Together, these four planets are sometimes referred to as the Jovian, meaning "Jupiter-like", planets.
Saturn is named after the Roman god Saturn (that became the namesake of Saturday), equated to the Greek Kronos (the Titan father of Zeus) the Babylonian Ninurta and to the Hindu Shani. Saturn's symbol represents the god's sickle."
wikipedia also says...
Quote:

"Saturn (Latin: Saturnus) was a major Roman god of agriculture and harvest. In medieval times he was known as the Roman god of agriculture, justice and strength; he held a sickle in his left hand and a bundle of wheat in his right. His mother's name was Helen, or Hel. He was identified in classical antiquity with the Greek deity Cronus, and the mythologies of the two gods are commonly mixed. Saturn's wife was Ops (the Roman equivalent of Rhea). Saturn was the father of Ceres, Jupiter, Veritas, Pluto, and Neptune, among others. Saturn had a temple on the Forum Romanum which contained the Royal Treasury. Saturn is the namesake of both Saturn, the planet, and Saturday (dies Saturni).
Greek deity Cronus. In Hesiod's Theogony, a mythological account of the creation of the universe and Jupiter's rise to power, Saturn is mentioned as the son of Caelus (the Roman equivalent of Uranus), the heavens, and Terra (the Roman equivalent of Gaia), the earth. Hesiod is an early Greek poet and rhapsode, who presumably lived around 700 BC. He writes that Saturn seizes power, castrating and overthrowing his father Caelus. However, it was foretold that one day a mighty son of Saturn would in turn overthrow him, and Saturn devoured all of his children when they were born to prevent this. Saturn's wife, Ops, often identified with the Greek goddess Rhea, hid her sixth child, Jupiter, on the island of Crete, and offered Saturn a large stone wrapped in swaddling clothes in his place; Saturn promptly devoured it. Jupiter later overthrew Saturn and the other Titans, becoming the new supreme ruler of the cosmos.
In memory of the Golden Age of man, a mythical age when Saturn was said to have ruled, a great feast called Saturnalia was held during the winter months around the time of the winter solstice. It was originally only one day long, taking place on December 17, but later lasted one week. During Saturnalia, roles of master and slave were reversed, moral restrictions loosened, and the rules of etiquette ignored. It is thought that the festivals of Saturnalia and Lupercalia were the roots of the carnival year.
Although Saturn changed greatly over time due to the influence of Greek mythology, he was also one of the few distinct Roman deities to predate and retain elements of his original function."
I hope that this was as interesting for you as for me...

I know also that there are a lot of conflicting theories on any cultural gods named after Saturn.

PS - sorry it is so long... :(

Popcorn Gun 12-25-2009 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maidenroseheart (Post 1765920134)
you know that's a good question...

wikipedia says....
Saturn is the sixth planet from the Sun and the second largest planet in the Solar System, after Jupiter. Saturn, along with Jupiter, Uranus and Neptune, is classified as a gas giant. Together, these four planets are sometimes referred to as the Jovian, meaning "Jupiter-like", planets.
Saturn is named after the Roman god Saturn (that became the namesake of Saturday), equated to the Greek Kronos (the Titan father of Zeus) the Babylonian Ninurta and to the Hindu Shani. Saturn's symbol represents the god's sickle.

wikipedia also says...
Saturn (Latin: Saturnus) was a major Roman god of agriculture and harvest. In medieval times he was known as the Roman god of agriculture, justice and strength; he held a sickle in his left hand and a bundle of wheat in his right. His mother's name was Helen, or Hel. He was identified in classical antiquity with the Greek deity Cronus, and the mythologies of the two gods are commonly mixed. Saturn's wife was Ops (the Roman equivalent of Rhea). Saturn was the father of Ceres, Jupiter, Veritas, Pluto, and Neptune, among others. Saturn had a temple on the Forum Romanum which contained the Royal Treasury. Saturn is the namesake of both Saturn, the planet, and Saturday (dies Saturni).
Greek deity Cronus. In Hesiod's Theogony, a mythological account of the creation of the universe and Jupiter's rise to power, Saturn is mentioned as the son of Caelus (the Roman equivalent of Uranus), the heavens, and Terra (the Roman equivalent of Gaia), the earth. Hesiod is an early Greek poet and rhapsode, who presumably lived around 700 BC. He writes that Saturn seizes power, castrating and overthrowing his father Caelus. However, it was foretold that one day a mighty son of Saturn would in turn overthrow him, and Saturn devoured all of his children when they were born to prevent this. Saturn's wife, Ops, often identified with the Greek goddess Rhea, hid her sixth child, Jupiter, on the island of Crete, and offered Saturn a large stone wrapped in swaddling clothes in his place; Saturn promptly devoured it. Jupiter later overthrew Saturn and the other Titans, becoming the new supreme ruler of the cosmos.
In memory of the Golden Age of man, a mythical age when Saturn was said to have ruled, a great feast called Saturnalia was held during the winter months around the time of the winter solstice. It was originally only one day long, taking place on December 17, but later lasted one week. During Saturnalia, roles of master and slave were reversed, moral restrictions loosened, and the rules of etiquette ignored. It is thought that the festivals of Saturnalia and Lupercalia were the roots of the carnival year.
Although Saturn changed greatly over time due to the influence of Greek mythology, he was also one of the few distinct Roman deities to predate and retain elements of his original function.

I hope that this was as interesting for you as for me...

I know also that there are a lot of conflicting theories on any cultural gods named after Saturn.

PS - sorry it is so long... :(



If you copy-pasted it, make sure you put it in quotes, otherwise it's against the rules, kay?

Agent HEY-LEE 12-25-2009 10:24 PM

Not me! ^^ Never even heard of it before and I don't really care to read about. No offense. o.o;

maidenroseheart 12-26-2009 02:39 AM

whooops, my bad...yeah, I copied and pasted it...should I edit it and add quotes? I know in some places (most likely not Menewsha) editing is not allowed...

there, I added quotes....thanks for not getting mad!

Captain Howdy 12-26-2009 08:32 AM

I've just sent a PM your way, maidenroseheart, about quoting. :)

Also, don't forget that double posting is against the rules. ;)

Ebony Mist 12-26-2009 08:44 AM

Hmm... I can't say I've heard of it.

Elleyena Rose 12-26-2009 05:30 PM

I've never heard of this before...it sounds like great fun though!

Arechi 12-26-2009 08:26 PM

If you're referring to the Roman Saturnus then it's simply Latin for the god Saturn whom is the Roman god of Agriculture, equated with the Greek god Cronos, and the father of Jupiter, Neptune, Juna and Pluto.

If you meant Saturnalia then it's the festival dedicated to Saturn that, as others have posted, starts December 17th and carries on for several days. People have already posted most of the information that they found on wikipedia, which is fairly credible for the most part, so I won't go into too much detail about it. Usually the people would say "io Saturnalia" during the merriment, which is simply translated as "ho Saturnalia". Another sort of saying dealing with Saturnalia is "non semper Saturnalia erunt" which can figuratively be translated as "it won't be Christmas forever".

When I was in high school my Latin class did an early Saturnalia celebration, since we'd be on break when it was actually occurring, and that's where I actually got most of my knowledge on it and the Latin phrases. It was actually quite fun. :D

On a show called The Big Bang Theory the character Shelldon had also mentioned that the Christmas tree was actually adopted from this festival, with the green evertreen used to represent purity within the home, or something like that.

maidenroseheart 12-28-2009 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Howdy (Post 1765934634)
I've just sent a PM your way, maidenroseheart, about quoting. :)

Also, don't forget that double posting is against the rules. ;)

Ugh, and I can almost swear someone told me double posting was not allowed and I did it anyways :( okay, quotes use those weird bold and dashes format and only post once every now and then to avoid double posting...got it! I think? I know!

Itsumou 12-28-2009 04:55 AM

SATURNALIA GET
I know exactly what you're talking about, and you'd probably have better luck asking if people knew who the Roman God Saturn was, or who Julius I was. I went all around my facebook this year telling people "Hail Saturnalia," half-expecting some of my ultra-Christian relatives to tell me that I misspelled Satan.

XxA_Wistful_InsanityxX 12-30-2009 08:58 PM

...way over my head..I'll look it up though

Arechi 12-31-2009 06:17 AM

Lol I think it's already been looked up by a few people and posted on here, but go for it. XD

Akuma-hime 12-31-2009 06:33 AM

i have never heard of it so i cant help you

Eastriel 12-31-2009 12:30 PM

I don;t sorry.

Sharl 01-01-2010 01:10 AM

Ummmm.... ~headscratch~ I've heard of Saturnalia, but what the heck is Saturnus?

Clarise 01-01-2010 06:47 AM

As a Classics and Latin scholar, I am very familiar with Saturnalia, which is the festival of Saturnus. Lots of people have pointed out what it is, but not too many seem to be familiar with what goes on then.

There are lots of different traditions, but my favorite that comes to mind right now is that masters often served their slaves for a day. Of course, the Romans had lots of religious festivals, and some of the rites and traditions get mixed up in my head. I generally keep my studies to ancient military, poliotical, and art history and don't know as much about ancient religion.

Arechi 01-01-2010 09:55 PM

There's a bit more information that I've collected from other websites that go into a little bit more detail of what occurred.

Quote:

Beginning in the week leading up to the winter solstice and continuing for a full month, Saturnalia was a hedonistic time, when food and drink were plentiful and the normal Roman social order was turned upside down. For a month, slaves would become masters. Peasants were in command of the city. Business and schools were closed so that everyone could join in the fun. Also around the time of the winter solstice, Romans observed Juvenalia, a feast honoring the children of Rome. In addition, members of the upper classes often celebrated the birthday of Mithra, the god of the unconquerable sun, on December 25. It was believed that Mithra, an infant god, was born of a rock. For some Romans, Mithra's birthday was the most sacred day of the year.
In the early years of Christianity, Easter was the main holiday; the birth of Jesus was not celebrated. In the fourth century, church officials decided to institute the birth of Jesus as a holiday. Unfortunately, the Bible does not mention date for his birth (a fact Puritans later pointed out in order to deny the legitimacy of the celebration). Although some evidence suggests that his birth may have occurred in the spring (why would shepherds be herding in the middle of winter?), Pope Julius I chose December 25. It is commonly believed that the church chose this date in an effort to adopt and absorb the traditions of the pagan Saturnalia festival.

~Courtesy of Saturnalia - History.com - God of Agriculture & Winter Solstice Festivals
Quote:

By the beginning of December, writes Columella, the farmer should have finished his autumn planting. Now, at the time of the winter solstice (December 25 in the Julian calendar), Saturnus, the god of seed and sowing, was honored with a festival. The Saturnalia officially was celebrated on December 17 (XVI Kal. Jan.) and, in Cicero's time, lasted seven days, from December 17-23. Augustus limited the holiday to three days, so the civil courts would not have to be closed any longer than necessary, and Caligula extended it to five (Suetonius, XVII; Cassius Dio, LIX.6), which Claudius restored after it had been abolished (Dio, LX.25). Still, everyone seems to have continued to celebrate for a full week, extended, says Macrobius (I.10.24), by celebration of the Sigillaria, so named for the small earthenware figurines that were sold.
Macrobius, in his Saturnalia, creates an imaginary symposium among pagan intellectuals that takes place then. There, he offers an explanation for the varying length of the holiday. Originally, it was celebrated on only one day, the fourteenth before the Kalends of January (December 19). With the Julian reform of the calendar, however, two days were added to December, and the Saturnalia was celebrated sixteen days before the Kalends (December 17), "with the result that, since the exact day was not commonly known--some observing the addition which Caesar had made to the calendar and others following the old usage--the festival came to be regarded as lasting for more days than one" (I.10.2). The original day now was given over to the Opalia, honoring Ops, who personified abundance and the fruits of the earth, and was the consort of Saturn. As the two deities represented the produce of the fields and orchards, so they also were thought to represent heaven and earth. It was for this reason, says Macrobius (I.10.20), that the two festivals were celebrated at the same time, the worshipers of Ops always sitting in prayer so that they touched the earth, mother of all.
In the Roman calendar, the Saturnalia was designated a holy day, or holiday, on which religious rites were performed. Saturn, himself, was identified with Kronos, and sacrificed to according to Greek ritual, with the head uncovered. The Temple of Saturn, the oldest temple recorded by the pontiffs, had been dedicated on the Saturnalia, and the woolen bonds which fettered the feet of the ivory cult statue within were loosened on that day to symbolize the liberation of the god.
It also was a festival day. After sacrifice at the temple, there was a public banquet, which Livy says was introduced in 217 BC (there also may have been a lectisternium, a banquet for the god in which its image is placed in attendance, as if a guest). Afterwards, according to Macrobius (I.10.18), the celebrants shouted "Io, Saturnalia!" at a riotous feast in the temple.
The Saturnalia was the most popular holiday of the Roman year. Catullus (XIV) describes it as "the best of days," and Seneca complains that the "whole mob has let itself go in pleasures" (Epistles, XVIII.3). Pliny the Younger writes that he retired to his room while the rest of the household celebrated (Epistles, II.17.24). It was an occasion for celebration, visits to friends, and the presentation of gifts, particularly wax candles (cerei), perhaps to signify the returning light after the solstice, and sigillaria. Martial wrote Xenia and Apophoreta for the Saturnalia. Both were published in December and intended to accompany the "guest gifts" which were given at that time of year. Aulus Gellius relates in his Attic Nights (XVIII.2) that he and his Roman compatriots would gather at the baths in Athens, where they were studying, and pose difficult questions to one another on the ancient poets, a crown of laurel being dedicated to Saturn if no-one could answer them.
During the holiday, restrictions were relaxed and the social order inverted. Gambling was allowed in public. Slaves were permitted to use dice and did not have to work. Instead of the toga, less formal dinner clothes (synthesis) were permitted, as was the pileus, a felt cap normally worn by the manumitted slave that symbolized the freedom of the season. Within the family, a Lord of Misrule was chosen. Slaves were treated as equals, allowed to wear their masters' clothing, and be waited on at meal time in remembrance of an earlier golden age thought to have been ushered in by the god. In the Saturnalia, Lucian relates that "During My week the serious is barred; no business allowed. Drinking, noise and games and dice, appointing of kings and feasting of slaves, singing naked, clapping of frenzied hands, an occasional ducking of corked faces in icy water—such are the functions over which I preside."
This equality was temporary, of course; and Petronius speaks of an impudent slave being asked at some other time of the year whether it was December yet. Dio writes of Aulus Plautius, who was to lead the conquest of Britain, cajoling his troops. But they hesitated, "indignant at the thought of carrying on a campaign outside the limits of the known world." Only when they were entreated by a former slave dispatched by Claudius did they relent, shouting "Io, Saturnalia" (LX.19.3).
(If a time of merriment, the season also was an occasion for murder. The Catiline conspirators intended to fire the city and kill the senate on the Saturnalia, when many would be preoccupied with the festivities. Caracalla plotted to murder his brother then, and Commodus was strangled in his bath on New Year's eve.)
At the end of the first century AD, Statius still could proclaim: "For how many years shall this festival abide! Never shall age destroy so holy a day! While the hills of Latium remain and father Tiber, while thy Rome stands and the Capitol thou hast restored to the world, it shall continue" (Silvae, I.6.98ff). And the Saturnalia did continue to be celebrated as Brumalia (from bruma, winter solstice) down to the Christian era, when, by the middle of the fourth century AD, its rituals had become absorbed in the celebration of Christmas.


~Courtesy of Saturnalia

Quote:

The opening festivities were marked by a public banquet at the temple of Saturn when the god’s statue was released from the ties which bound it to the temple for the rest of the year. From this point on, normal social rules were inverted. All business was suspended, criminals could not be convicted or wars started. Pleasure ruled. Each household would choose a King of the festival to preside over their own parties and celebrations, thrown for families and for clients by their patron. Slaves would be served by their own masters who would dress informally, even wearing the traditional slaves hat, the pilleus. The time was spent playing games, gambling, eating and drinking.


Gifts were also given. Traditionally, they were comprised of pottery figures called sigilla and wax candles, purchased at the fair that marked the closing days of saturnalia. However, as time passed, gifts became more ostentatious, so much so that legislation was required to prevent the less wealthy from beggaring themselves giving gifts they could ill afford.


The Origins of Saturnalia

Saturnalia was an Italic-Hellenic hybrid, celebrating the bounty of the harvest and the good things in life, whilst propitiating the dark and threatening forces of winter.

According to legend, the Saturnalia was ancient and predated the foundation of Rome. It was instigated by Janus in gratitude for Saturn’s legendary introduction of agriculture to Italy. Many features of the festival do agree this origin. The name Saturn is believed to derive from the Latin for sowing, satus. Furthermore, the saturnalia was only one festival in December celebrating the harvest safely gathered in against the coming of winter. The Consualia was celebrated on the 15th and the Opalia on the 19th.
However, the ancient sources also reveal legends that link Saturn not with agricultures introduction but the days before it; a mythical golden age when food was available without the associated toil and mankind was carefree, that finds its echo in the festival’s emphasis on leisure and pleasure.
Elements of the festival support primitive Italic origins. The pottery figures of the sigillares are transmuted sacrifices to Saturn, pottery representations of the human heads once placed on the god’s altar. Likewise, the candles represent torches to light against the darkness of Saturn’s chaos. Darkness represents the time before civilisation, the time of chaos which fits with the idea of misrule. But it also epitomises winter.
However, the development of Saturnalia was closely influenced by Greek ideas. The format of the festival, with its feasts and social inversion, bear a direct resemblance to those of the Cronia, a Greek harvest festival held in honour of the god Cronos, Saturn’s Greek counterpart.
Survival of Saturnalia

Saturnalia continued to be celebrated into the Christian era. The Chronicle of 354AD, a commentary on life in Rome at that time used a figure celebrating Saturnalia as the emblem for December.
Yet even when it had ceased to be explicitly celebrated, traces of saturnalia’s festivities still remained. At the Feast of Fools, held on the 1st January in medieval France it was common for high and low officials to exchanging places during festivities. And today, we find the traditions of gift giving, candle lighting and merry making still survive in the celebrations of Christmas.

~Courtesy of The Roman Festival of Saturnalia: Discover the Origins and Customs of a Roman Midwinter Festival

Lura Crane 01-02-2010 03:31 AM

What a great way to start the day~
To fill my head with fun new knowledge about the Saturnalia. owo

I probably would have done the same as Pliny the Younger and kept myself out of the riotous craziness that went on at that time. XD;

midnitemyst 01-02-2010 03:52 AM

I have no idea.

Arechi 01-02-2010 04:29 AM

Lol I think it would be rather fun to participate in it. XD


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