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-   -   Being gay. Is it a sin or not? Are you born that way or not? Gay marriage? (https://www.menewsha.com/forum/showthread.php?t=124917)

TideToGo 08-17-2009 01:25 AM

Being gay. Is it a sin or not? Are you born that way or not? Gay marriage?
 
Well, as a christian i believe that Christ Jesus died for us and that he is the son of god, above all every christian should believe that, and i believe that the bible is true to the core,but, i dont believe that being Gay is a sin. First of all why would it be a sin if your born that way. Second off i know people are going to say that being gay is a choice and its a sin if chose to be so, but who would chose a life of ridicule and ass-kickings. I know i wouldn't. Personally im not gay, but i support it all the way. Also, i live in California, and recently a bill was passed about gay marriage, and how it is simply not allowed. And that really pisses me off. Because i believe marriage should be shared between two PEOPLE who love each other, not just a man and a woman. I know religion has alot to do with it, but religion and politics simply should not mix.
Your views and opinions please.
=]

Gary Stargazer 08-17-2009 01:30 AM

There is nothing wrong with being gay. There is no argument that can be given other than a religious one to dispute it and religious arguments are instantly moot in debates so.. yea ... Xd

Tokyoberry 08-17-2009 03:54 AM

Well my opinion is that god loves everyone.
So no matter who you fall in love with its still ok. :)
People say Oh its a sin! Blah Blah Blah!
But I think some people just dont understand how it would feel to be treated like that.
I dont think you can be born gay.. I just dont believe that.At all. lol
I think you slowly realize it.
And I support gay marriage because just because you love a different gender doesnt mean you need to be treated differently.
In my Church we have a gay couple to. Some dont agree but I support them.
Just my opinion~

ZaK.86 08-17-2009 04:22 AM

All of their religious arguments are trumped by the great commandment anyways. And if they don't follow that they aren't really Christians. And besides that, there's also that little thing about judgment is reserved for God... so every time that you judge someone you're sinning...

Personally, I think that gay and straight are arbitrary terms because no one is truly one or the other. Everyone is somewhere in between. There isn't a single person out there who is 100% straight or 100% gay. Same as no one is 100% good and no one is 100% evil.

Knitted Doll 08-17-2009 09:17 AM

@Gary: I don't think it's fair to dismiss religious arguments just like that; religion is an important part of many people's lives, and it should be respected just as much as you should respect a non-religious viewpoint. Incidentally, I'm an (educated) Atheist myself xD
That said, I don't think the justification in the Judaeo-Christian purity laws is correctly interpreted. 'Thou shalt not lie with man as with women' is more likely to refer to temple prostitution (like that described by Herodotus) then anything else; even if it is referring to gay men, the issue is more one of dominance, as women were seen as inferior, and as we now see men and women as equal, this is no longer important. Even if you don't accept this argument, if you don't follow the rest of the code eg. not eating shellfish, or wearing clothes made out of two different types of fabric, etc. then it is hypocritical to criticise gay men (interestingly enough, there's not really any references to gay women in the bible, both old and new testament).
There's also the issue of creation; if God directly creates people (which brings up whole new problems of free will and interventionism, which I won't go into here), then he must create their sexuality as well. A 'good' god wouldn't create someone doomed to do something which is 'wrong', so it must not be wrong.

@Zak: That's a very Ancient Greek point of view; one text I read proposed that gay/straight/etc. was only invented in (approx.) Victorian times; before that, it was all just sex.

Cap'n Tobias 08-17-2009 11:31 AM

I sometime get really defensive in these situations so here is what I say:;
Quote:

I know God doesn't make mistakes, and if I'm gay it's because that's what he wanted. What you wanted. And I think the challenge is to get everyone else to see that. This is their test, not mine
Quote taken from the book "thinking straight" by Robin Reardon

Claudia 08-17-2009 03:00 PM

I don't believe anything that is not a choice can be considered a sin.
Telling someone they are sinning for being gay is like saying someone who poops is sinning, it just doesn't make a lot of sense.

Oscar the Wild 08-17-2009 04:37 PM

I don't think there's a choice when it comes to sexuality, but I don't think it's a sin.

Stormlick 08-17-2009 05:12 PM

It is not a choice. It is not a 'sin'. I don't really believe in sin, anyway. God loves unconditionally. And condemning homosexuality is seriously unchristian. The people who claim to be followers of Jesus Christ, and at the same time condemns homosexuality are hypocrites. They are not following Christ's example!

Some Random Randomness 08-17-2009 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knitted Doll (Post 1764925520)
@Gary: I don't think it's fair to dismiss religious arguments just like that; religion is an important part of many people's lives, and it should be respected just as much as you should respect a non-religious viewpoint. Incidentally, I'm an (educated) Atheist myself xD
That said, I don't think the justification in the Judaeo-Christian purity laws is correctly interpreted. 'Thou shalt not lie with man as with women' is more likely to refer to temple prostitution (like that described by Herodotus) then anything else; even if it is referring to gay men, the issue is more one of dominance, as women were seen as inferior, and as we now see men and women as equal, this is no longer important. Even if you don't accept this argument, if you don't follow the rest of the code eg. not eating shellfish, or wearing clothes made out of two different types of fabric, etc. then it is hypocritical to criticise gay men (interestingly enough, there's not really any references to gay women in the bible, both old and new testament).
There's also the issue of creation; if God directly creates people (which brings up whole new problems of free will and interventionism, which I won't go into here), then he must create their sexuality as well. A 'good' god wouldn't create someone doomed to do something which is 'wrong', so it must not be wrong.

@Zak: That's a very Ancient Greek point of view; one text I read proposed that gay/straight/etc. was only invented in (approx.) Victorian times; before that, it was all just sex.

Religious points SHOULD be considered moot.
America knows a separation of church and state, or at least to a degree.
Considering laws and bills are part of the state, no religious arguement should have the ability to influence the decision on whether it should be allowed legally or not.

Think of this from another viewpoint. You're a woman, but considering religious points are allowed to consider laws, you are legally allowed to make 75% less because you are a woman, and are the reason for the fall of man.

Not right is it?

Knitted Doll 08-17-2009 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Some Random Randomness (Post 1764926793)
Religious points SHOULD be considered moot.
America knows a separation of church and state, or at least to a degree.
Considering laws and bills are part of the state, no religious arguement should have the ability to influence the decision on whether it should be allowed legally or not.

Actually, I'm not American >__< I'm British, where the nominal head of state is also in theory the leader of the biggest church. Admittedly, the Queen doesn't have any real power, and the Archbishop of Canterbury is the real leader, but that's the theoretical state of things.

From what I understand, the religious lobby has a serious impact in the USA :? If nothing else, look at the furor over whether Obama OMGMIGHTBEAMUSLIMPANIC. No non-Christian president would ever be elected.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Some Random Randomness (Post 1764926793)
Think of this from another viewpoint. You're a woman, but considering religious points are allowed to consider laws, you are legally allowed to make 75% less because you are a woman, and are the reason for the fall of man.

Not right is it?

That point isn't really very useful; it all depends on your interpretation of the Bible. There are two creation stories - Adam and Eve, and the Seven Days. When you look at the way in which the Bible is put together, and compare it to other sources, it turns out that the Adam and Eve story is taken from the point when some of the Jews were exiled in Babylon - it's one of the Babylonian creation myths, adapted and stuck onto a Jewish story.

Not to mention that the concept of original sin isn't helpful either; if anything, I'd apply the Iranean Theodicy. I like Iranaeus <3

Where do you get the idea of 75% less? Can you give me your sources, please?

Pexiloo 08-17-2009 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Some Random Randomness (Post 1764926793)
Religious points SHOULD be considered moot.
America knows a separation of church and state, or at least to a degree.
Considering laws and bills are part of the state, no religious arguement should have the ability to influence the decision on whether it should be allowed legally or not.

Think of this from another viewpoint. You're a woman, but considering religious points are allowed to consider laws, you are legally allowed to make 75% less because you are a woman, and are the reason for the fall of man.

Not right is it?

You...well Actually have a point but,Sin is real Heaven And Hell Are Real,if u thnk tht its real Congratz cya in heaven!,well fine but if yu don't plz jst accept this.


Srry,Not Sincere Enough??...Gud cause i guess yall' "NUN BELIVERS" Can "Nun Belive" In Hell So Message Me Plz If Yall Hve Questions?

Gary Stargazer 08-17-2009 06:34 PM

I apologize ... but please attempt to spell and make your argument understandable before you come to a debate >>

Oh and using heaven and hell in a debate? you might as well use candy land and hogwarts as an argument.

Stormlick 08-17-2009 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary Stargazer (Post 1764926992)
I apologize ... but please attempt to spell and make your argument understandable before you come to a debate >>

Oh and using heaven and hell in a debate? you might as well use candy land and hogwarts as an argument.


Heaven and Hell are very serious topics to some, Gary. Comparing them to Candy Land and Hogwarts, and ridiculing their use in debates is kind of bad and disrespectful. I thought good debates were about respect and sincerity?

I agree with you on the spelling part though. And her argument may not have the best of structures. But respect is warranted, regardless of that.

GoCloud! 08-18-2009 12:55 AM

I don't think being gay is a sin...Then again I haven't exactly read the bible, but I'm pretty sure it isn't. You're also not exactly born gay either..lol. Being gay isn't exactly hereditary..since if the parents were gay...It's a possibility you were adopted..And anyway, Politics really shouldn't involve themselves with religions because then, other religions are going to be annoyed against the politicians so the politicians should really just go back to their little offices and play Army Man or Sign Those Stacks of Paper within the time limit Man, again.

Kah Hilzin-Ec 08-18-2009 04:39 AM

@GoCloud: To be born retarded, gifted or albino it doesn't require anyne else in the family being so. Or at least, I'm pretty sure it happens at random :o Some scientifics found that gay men have straight women brains, and lesbians straight man brains o_o

@Stormlick: Just because people don't take Hogwarts seriously doesn't mean there isn't a similarity >_>'' Though I do agree one can't be too honest when wanting to keep things civil in a debate. And still, it's almost impossible to not offend anyone.

@Pexiloo: I don't have a cellphone, but judging from what christians have told me, I think I'd rather be in Hell anyway. No, I didn't use sarcasm, I suck too much to use it.

@Knitted Doll: I think it's because from a legal [or "humanistic"?] point of view, men and women are equal, but if we take the religious argument as the other 50%, a woman is worth from 1/2 to 3/5 of a man, making it 75-80%.

--
In my opinion, seeing as it doesn't hurt anyone [that doesn't want to anyway], and makes people happy thus a productive activity, it is totally acceptable.

Knitted Doll 08-18-2009 08:30 AM

@Kah: I don't understand your logic, I'm afraid :'( Can you explain to me why a woman is worth 1/2 --> 3/5 of a man under the religious argument?

As to your argument, it's a very utilitarian one :3 Have you read Bentham's 'Offences Against Oneself'?

Vivid 08-18-2009 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoCloud! (Post 1764929783)
I don't think being gay is a sin...Then again I haven't exactly read the bible, but I'm pretty sure it isn't. You're also not exactly born gay either..lol. Being gay isn't exactly hereditary..since if the parents were gay...It's a possibility you were adopted..And anyway, Politics really shouldn't involve themselves with religions because then, other religions are going to be annoyed against the politicians so the politicians should really just go back to their little offices and play Army Man or Sign Those Stacks of Paper within the time limit Man, again.

Yes, you are born gay, and yes, it is genetic. Sorry to break it to you.

Stormlick 08-18-2009 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kah Hilzin-Ec (Post 1764931451)


@Stormlick: Just because people don't take Hogwarts seriously doesn't mean there isn't a similarity >_>'' Though I do agree one can't be too honest when wanting to keep things civil in a debate. And still, it's almost impossible to not offend anyone.


The only similarity I can find is that they both can be perceived as fiction. However, Heaven and Hell are established beliefs through thousands of years. People have voluntarily and involuntarily lost their lives for both.. How is Hogwarts anything like that? I'm an atheist, but I sincerely believe in respect. Hogwarts is total fiction, from the mind of one British author. We know, because we've lived it. We do not, however, know if Heaven/Hell are fiction. We don't, simple as.

There is no proof that Heaven/Hell exists, and there is no proof that it doesn't. Comparing those phenomena, if you will, is a bit silly.

reddeath26 08-18-2009 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vivid (Post 1764932609)
Yes, you are born gay, and yes, it is genetic. Sorry to break it to you.

Really? Scientists have finally discovered the gene/s which control a persons sexuality? I would love to see your proof for such a claim.

Kah Hilzin-Ec 08-18-2009 07:16 PM

@Knitted Doll: I'm guessing muslim countries consider woman a half, because one time this woman got acid thrown on her face and made blind by a man, and they said they had the "an eye for an eye" rule in there, but since she was a woman they would just drop acid into one of the man's eyes.

And at some verse in the bible they put prices on slaves and it mentioned women being 30 and men 50 [and in any variation by age women were 3/5 of men]

Of course, this looking at the darkest side of religion.

@Stormlick: Just because it's been in the minds of millions of people who truly believed there was doesn't make it more real. Just like we don't know if "magic" exists because some people claim it does and some others don't. And the belief in "magic" goes back to several centuries. I don't see it more real just because it's old. It's just as real as an idea can be, it affects people way of thinking and may even affect their actions, just like any other belief.

But yeah, that was the similarity I was refering to, plus that in both places things that can't be studied/quantified/totally understood by science happen.

KaitieTheNerd 08-18-2009 07:42 PM

being gay is not a sin. people only think it is because of something in the bible. but all it says about being gay is that this dude was supposed to get a woman pregnant, and instead he went and got busy with another dude. i have not read this my self, but my mother has and she does not get where people get the message that being gay is a sin. neither do i, even if the bible said it was, i still wouldn't think it's a sin. they do nothing wrong. it's just how they are, it's not their fault. i support gay couples completely, and no, i'm not gay myself.

A NOTE TO PEXILOO: your message seemed sorta harsh, dude. seriously, nobody has proof that heaven and hell exist, and everyone has a right to have different beliefs. if you believe in all that, fine, that's your business, but that doesn't mean you're right. for all we know, there is no heaven, there is no hell. who knows? maybe we are all WAY off on this and everyone could be wrong. you don't know for sure until you die. personally, i either believe in heaven or reincarnation. i don't know for sure. but i think reincarnation is way more likely. i respect everyone's religious beliefs, though.

Hyena 08-18-2009 07:46 PM

I think that its silly when people focus on homosexuality as a sin. There's a story in the bible that actually describes a relationship between two men in a good light. Its somewhere in the old testament. I should really memorize the passage location for arguments like these, but right now its simply too sweltering in my house to memorize... anything.

Anyhow, people make a big deal about gay marriage making a mockery of the institution of marriage (at least, that's the biggest argument we have here in Indiana). The classic line is something along the lines of "if we allow same-sex marriages, then soon we'll have to allow pedophilia, polygamy, and bestiality." To this, I tilt my head. They just equated same-sex marriage with three things that have nothing to do with homosexuality. I'm sure you're all familiar with that argument. Anyhow, long before marriage was seen as a religious institution, it was regarded as a contract between two people. And that's really what it is. Its a business benefit.

My dad once said to me something that I completely agree with: "The offensive part of being gay only happens for about an hour or so behind the seclusion of your own home with your significant other. And you know what you do if that part REALLY offends you? You stop thinking about it. There you go. Problem solved." He also said: "Being gay doesn't really benefit you in any way. It doesn't really seem like a choice if there aren't any benefits." Keep in mind, this is an extremely straight man who lives and grew up in a very conservative area.

I love my dad.

Back on topic... where was I? I also keep hearing "there weren't no queers until that there woodstock in 1969." It just makes me sigh.

I have yet to hear a completely grounded and practical reason not to allow same-sex marriage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pexiloo (Post 1764926975)
You...well Actually have a point but,Sin is real Heaven And Hell Are Real,if u thnk tht its real Congratz cya in heaven!,well fine but if yu don't plz jst accept this.


Srry,Not Sincere Enough??...Gud cause i guess yall' "NUN BELIVERS" Can "Nun Belive" In Hell So Message Me Plz If Yall Hve Questions?

I don't think that this is really the place to evangelize. While I realize that part of the principles of Christianity is to "go forth and spread my word," I would much rather hear a more thought-out version of your argument. And threatening us with eternal damnation doesn't really make me want to change my heathen ways. I may not believe in Heaven and Hell as much as you do, but I have a very distinct feeling that saying such things go against several principles of your religion. I believe it goes something to the effect of "do unto others?"

But I digress. You are allowed your opinion, even if it isn't well-stated.

~iBlazian~ 08-18-2009 08:02 PM

I don't see how being Gay is a sin.... its just a different veiw. And half the time, its just natural. It the way people are, how they were made. I'm not gay, but thats my opinion.

Pexiloo 08-18-2009 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TideToGo (Post 1764922964)
Well, as a christian i believe that Christ Jesus died for us and that he is the son of god, above all every christian should believe that, and i believe that the bible is true to the core,but, i dont believe that being Gay is a sin. First of all why would it be a sin if your born that way. Second off i know people are going to say that being gay is a choice and its a sin if chose to be so, but who would chose a life of ridicule and ass-kickings. I know i wouldn't. Personally im not gay, but i support it all the way. Also, i live in California, and recently a bill was passed about gay marriage, and how it is simply not allowed. And that really pisses me off. Because i believe marriage should be shared between two PEOPLE who love each other, not just a man and a woman. I know religion has alot to do with it, but religion and politics simply should not mix.
Your views and opinions please.
=]

Sorta agree


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