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Thank you, ljos, I was going to mention the gender-neutral pronouns (I have them in the first post!), and I strongly encourage people on Menewsha to use them when talking about me (unless it is a roleplay and they are talking about a character that is a specific gender).
I don't object to sarofset's use of "girly" if it was pre-cursed with "Society's view of what is girly". Also, Anna-dearest, I'm really glad to see you back here. However should you have anything super-personal to say to someone based on real life experience I'd ask that you take it to PMs. Someone posted things that made me sound like an ooc asshat/douchebag in my main thread (my charity) once and I was stunned because I couldn't reply without making it obvious that I was the person in question. I asked them to not post personal things in my threads because of the effect it had on me... there's the life issues forum (I have a thread there for crying out loud) and PMs. Many intelligent points can come out of disagreement, but I'd prefer not to see hostility here. In my opinion you were toeing the line between the two =/ English is technically a germanic language (as 'old english' is practically german) with a time capusle of 'old french' that came in during 'middle english'. We have two words for the same thing in many cases, but one is from a germanic etymology and the other from a latin-based... very much like spanish. I really loathed how things had genders and how you were plastered with it in every day language. |
As far as certain words go, I tend not to use things like "girly" in serious context; however, generalizations do have their place--though on the rare occasions that I use such words, I typically put them in quotes because I don't necessarily agree with the association.
However, most of us recognize that stereotypes do have their truths behind them. No, being soft and sensitive doesn't make one a girl, just as being bold and strong doesn't make one a boy. There are biological reasons tying in to our own evolution as a species, though, that helped to bring about the views we have and have always had about what is masculine or feminine. Therefore, I do not typically get bothered when someone uses "girly" or "boyish" to describe certain attitudes or physical aspects, though I am often rather offended when someone insists on them or doesn't recognize that there may be another way to describe them. On the topic of my gender, I do not usually consider myself male or female, but I have always leaned more toward male. Sometimes I do feel more female, but I generally do not appreciate being addressed with feminine pronouns. I never use them when speaking of myself, and hearing others use them toward me does make me feel somewhat uncomfortable--even if I am having a "girl" day. However, I've had to simply get used to it, as even those who know how I feel have not opted to change how they address me. I really don't want to press the issue and make things any more uncomfortable, since in the end, what they call me doesn't affect much. When it comes to gender roles and stereotypes, I've always been a decent mix of both, leaning a little more toward "feminine". I love a wide variety of styles, both in clothing/appearance and in activity. When I was little, I was just as happy to wear dresses and try on make-up as I was to play in the dirt and catch lizards. That hasn't changed (though I'm much more wary about dirt now since money is an issue and I can't afford to have anything ruined). As for my body, sometimes I'm pleased with it and sometimes I hate it. I usually prefer not to specifically resemble either sex, but that's been nearly impossible for me. I love my facial features the way they are, being that they are essentially feminine but not painfully so. My body, though, is a bit of a dead giveaway. There's nothing I can really do about that, though, so I'll deal with the assumptions and the pronouns as I always have. When it comes to sites like this one, I'm always displeased to see items being different for male or female avatars and have never understood the purpose behind that. If things are too gender-separated, I usually don't even stick with a site. However, on sites that I do use, my avatars are almost always male, but I do not go out of my way to make them appear "manly"--I still dress them however I please, using whatever is available. It bugs me when people assume that I am female just because my avatar may be wearing a skirt or something, especially when the body is still male. I do often have a male main account and a female secondary account, though, especially if there are items that are not unisex that I'd still like to use. I don't generally state my sex unless the topic is being discussed and I trust that the person I'm talking to won't make a point of calling me something I don't want to be called. I don't tend to refer to myself with pronouns other than "I", but every now and then I will use a masculine pronoun or even "it". I know that there are some new-ish gender-neutral pronouns, but I'm not particularly fond of the way they look/sound, so I don't use them for myself. Anyway, I feel like I've done enough rambling here... |
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I really don't see using the word girly as a way to enforce the binary gender system. Or at least, my take on it is to describe an attitude, not to insult or discriminate anyone. I'll describe girls and girly and boys as girly if I think they act girly. I'll describe them as feminine if I think their attitude is better described with that word, as the word feminine gives the impression of a more mature and soft attitude when girly tends to the immature and loud.
So maybe in my mind, sarofset would be feminine instead of girly. Not exactly because he sews though. More because he chooses activities that do not revolve around extreme activity, and more on multidimensional yet specific skills. And not exactly because he relates with women, but because he relates easily with things like emotions. In short, this is what attitudes (not people) I believe these words describe: - Girly: Immature, impulsive, guided by or find interest in what they see (may explain the usual interest in dresses). - Boyish: Immature, impulsive, guided by or find interest in what they can touch or feel with their skin (may explain the usual interest in sports). - Feminine: Mature, good at decoding the human feelings, yet kinda cold-headed (may explain usual discontent with extreme emotions). - Masculine: Mature, good at decoding the material world, yet kinda hot-headed (may explain usual preference for extreme emotions). Usual not being the same as universally. Now, after this long explanation, you might say, but why use gender-aimed adjectives to describe attitudes? Well, simply because it appears mostly in girls/boys/women/men. I don't see anyone complaining because of the phrase "As mad as a hatter", even though hatters nowadays avoid using mercury, and even in these days not all of them did. --- Now now, that doesn't mean I approve of thing like "That's so gay". That phrase carries a general negative connotation that has nothing to do with either meaning of the word. The words I described above, however, do relate with the majority. |
I don't know if I'd consider such labels necessary (very few things are, if you want to get technical), but they can come in handy--especially with such a vast number of people fitting them naturally. When it does get a little sad is when they are taken so seriously or are so enforced by a society that people will go out of character just to adhere to them, or have a negative view of those who don't. The way I generally view things is not to take them as black-and-white and never very seriously. Using generalizations can be OK, but assuming that they must be true or that one must stick to them in order to be right is where the problems come in.
And yes, I typically prefer male pronouns--though anything aside from female pronouns is fine with me. |
Oh no, I never tell or pretend to say anyone should act their gender. People should just be the way they feel they are. I know of a girl who will be very feminine (speaks softly, does her homework, manages her emotions calmly, doesn't like sports...) but she always waits eagerly for fridays, when her parents let her free to kill zombies on her X-Box. Really. Kill zombies.
I applauded when she told me, lol. --- You could also say that while I tend to be more aggressive and usually wear boy clothes, I always use a lot of make-up. A stain of girly in my masculine :lol: |
I will admit, sometimes one of the reasons I don't protest more about being called "she" is because I feel awkward insisting I'm a "he" while wearing a skirt and fretting about my lipstick. Not that I personally feel I don't deserve the word that makes me more comfortable, so much as I know other people feel that way and it does make me feel bad from time to time.
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Ahh, do not feel bad. Nobody that I know of is a 100% something. So, naturally, there will be people calling you whatever they believe fits better.
--- Because it would cause confusion. I'm priorizing making people understand me, not destroying the social aspect of gender. I don't care about the social aspect of gender, I care when it's treated like a rule and not a generalization. We should be teaching people the difference between a rule and generalization, just like people are being taught the difference between sexual identity and sexual preference. That's what annoys me about my parents, not them preferring me to be girly, but expecting me to be girly because I'm female. |
Things like that are why I started my thinking about whether gender actually exists. I decided it doesn't. We are who we are, not what we are. People can think what they want, but things we do, and the way we act is just part of our personality, and shouldn't be categorized by physical features, like gender. I'm a person who happens to be male, not the other way around.
That's what I think anyway. Not pushing it, but I like my way of thinking. :) |
A mental gender, maybe. Every mind is unique. The generalizations may be a consequence of the biological differences between both sexes influencing people to adopt certain traits (Example: girls being fragile - menstruation). That there are differences, even if just biological, cannot be denied.
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However since medicine is entirely subjective, and most of what is known about gender differences in the brain, is actually disputed heavily in many studies, I would say that mental Gender is probably due to nurture rather than nature.
I've done an obscene amount of research about this. It's part of how I decided what I did. And I totally don't mean to sound defensive or anything, I just get told about how stupid I am for believing this all the time. It grates on your nerves after a bit. |
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Just because they're used to opress doesn't mean they're bad in themselves. See, I use them to differenciate, but not to state superiority of one above the another. That's why I don't think changing the language is going to affect it much. Teaching the main point, everyone being capable of being the way the want to be even if it's unusual, I believe is the way to go.
*goes off to lunch then drums classes* ~ <3 |
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I do so love these lively debates. :) And yes, have fun with your drums.
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Indeed. But at least it's about something we care about, not something stupid. Youtube... ugh. lol.
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Shiny. That sounds awesome. I will be traveling with mine this spring, and summer. I can't wait. :) She's so sweet. lol. Though she is making me drive the whole way to Montana because she doesn't want to. lol.
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I'm back! :D
And ohhhh nice! I like traveling but my parents always take me to the beach... and I don't like the beach :no: And I like walking but I have no one to take me out :| It's a boring life. |
Go out hiking. I just go to the mountains for it. Although right now they are full of morons from California who are there, because *speaking in dumb blond voice* snow is pretty.
Ruiners. lol. |
Thought you guys might like this...
http://roostertails.files.wordpress....2-2010-man.jpg I find the best things on Tumblr. :3 |
Anna: XD Awesome. I squeaked a little. lol.
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Lol, that's so nice! :XD
--- Go out... alone?! Are you CRAZY?! No, wait, I forgot, you're from the USA :insane: Ahem... *clears throat* ... our current president has been trying to give the poor a better life standard by sacrificing general security and demonizing the rich. The past year, Ecuador (especially in my city) was introduced to hitmans because of the abolition of security. We went from having less than a dozen in a year, to having half a dozen per day. And basically anyone falls victim, from the poorest bastard to mayors and politicians. SO, burglars, trying not to get behind, have also gone on a high. So yup. A girl, evidently of the high class, out there, walking alone. How I wish I lived in Boca Raton with my half-sister. That place is so peaceful it's as if you were the last human left on the Earth after some strange The Twilight Zone happening :| |
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