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Ava - Probably not, they tend to be understanding. But they don't need the legislature. If someone's a prick just cut them out of your life or ignore them. It's what the rest of the world does when a person is excessively offensive.
If they take it to the top it classifies as harassment and can involve the police. The ones who will use this are the people who need a safe space because life is too hard so they want to kick out it's knees so they get easy mode. Easy mode would be short for "priority over others based on gender or race". It will be used as a tool to attack people. Salvete - So by declining to memorize all these gender pronouns and refusing to memorize some random stranger's pronoun can get me fined. The only part of this that is reasonable is Long-term care. However, their gender will be on their file which the nurse will review every day. I wont have that luxury in every day life. Also... that nurse sees that patient potentially 5 times a day. The reason that I believe that hormones are the guiding factor are due to the nature of medicine. Being one of few males at my job there are drugs that my coworkers can not touch. If that trans MtoF came in to work they would NOT be allowed to handle that medication and would be classified as female for that purpose. And when that trans MtoF arrives at the hospital, if they have not had their hormone replacement treatment then they would need to be medicated as a male. If no pronouns are specified then there could easily be millions of potential pronouns we have to remember. |
Okay - I think I know which article this is based off of, or at least have read a similar one - but I think the understanding in this thread is hyperbolic at best.
What is actually happening is gender identity is becoming protected under the constitution (Or the equivalent, depending where you are - I myself am in Canada) This actually just means that you cannot discriminate against someone for their gender identity - Basically the only time someone is getting fined for using the wrong pronouns is if people such as teachers refuse to use your pronouns or your name. This is important in instances where people are in the process of transitioning and do not want to be outed at school or work. Essentially the law would be on your side and it would force schools and business to have policies in place to protect their gender diverse students and workers. Likewise business couldn't refuse service based on gender identity (Like that non-sense with that lady and the gay wedding cake - but with trans/genderqueer people). Also - I don't know why the discussion is surrounding someones right to call someone the wrong pronoun?? No one cares if you make a mistake - apologize and move on. Do better next time. Side bar: Promiscuity is awesome. People should feel comfortable in their own bodies in whatever way that looks like for them so long as they are safe, sane, and consensual. <3 Edit: I also work in health care - and it is MORE then reasonable to use a patients given pronouns. Get in the practice of using gender neutral language with your patients, or ASK them what they prefer - normalize the culture and avoid being cissexist. It's just good practice. As for the drugs - you can ask questions about biology in a non-offensive way. :) |
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It makes sense that a biological woman should not handle a drug that causes infertility in women and not in men. By that, you mean she will not be able to bear children. A trans MtoF is biologically male. She would not be able to bear children with our technology and skillset right now anyway. She could handle that drug because she would not experience infertility by handling it. She is female regardless of whether or not she had hormone replacement therapy. Did you actually intend to say that she is not allowed to handle the drug because of her gender, as opposed to her biological sex? You did not address what I said about the importance of anatomy regardless of hormones. One of my examples was that a trans woman usually still has a prostate and is still at risk for prostate cancer, regardless of hormone replacement therapy. ---------- Post added 09-20-2017 at 08:32 PM ---------- Quote:
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2femme - So that teacher has to memorize the gender identity of upward of 300 students? Professors upward of 600+?
What do you mean by "being outed"? I guess for me I just don't understand why it's so important to be called Xir instead of Zir. If they created an OFFICIAL gender neutral term, I would be fully accepting of it. But in it's current state of memorizing whatever pronoun this person prefers, it's utter rubbish. Until there is an officially recognize gender neutral term for he/she (As they is technically for more than one person), then I can see people being able to handle this. What this does is instead of dictating what I CAN NOT say, it dictates what I CAN say an impedes with my freedom of speech. It says I MUST use this word. Things do not have to be the law to be incorporated into society. For example, cussing around children is not illegal, but it is frowned upon. You may for example be asked to leave but you wont get a fine. But of course, gender neutral language is bound to offend people too. Salvete - I don't know what all would happen if a trans person handled that medication, but I suspect it could mess with them in other ways. I just know it states Women of Childbearing age. If they are unable to bear children they are still of childbearing age. I had mentioned previously regarding biology that there should be a gender term for those transitioning so that doctors know what to look for. Sure I can memorize complex drug names and I can memorize long numbers within just a few minutes. I have a social issue where social based things are very hard for me to learn. They do not come naturally to me like other things and requires a lot more mental power than anything else. It took me over a year to memorize all my coworkers names and there's not even 20 people. That would be enough mistakes to get me that big fat fine mentioned above. As for memorizing a "few" 3 letter names. There are approximately 31 different names I have to memorize. I spent 9 months memorizing many of those drugs and I only retain the ones I use every day. Also to note: Many drugs have patterns to them to aid in learning them. Alex is a Sir and bob is a Xir isn't capable of applying this pattern because Katie can also be a Sir or a Xir. |
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People who use other pronouns are few and far in between, especially in places, frankly, where there is more transphobia. And if you have ever been in a class with hundreds of students, you should know that professors don't even get to know most of those students on a personal level. So there would be even less need to "memorize" anyone's pronouns or gender identities. |
Yes I am aware. Gender Dysphoria is a growing trend right now so it is potential that it could reach that point in the future. Maybe not next year but 10-20 years from now the teacher might have a large number of students with gender dysphoria.
You say there is less in transphobic areas. So that means there are more in non-transphobic areas. So there lies the risk of making this law. It's an unknown variable. Sure perhaps they wont memorize all of them. But the issue lies in the potential. If the professor is responding to questions, perhaps saying "She/He has a good question" and goes on with that. This would be an issue if that student identifies as one of the 31 different gender neutrals. You might say just use "They"... but They is a Plural, NOT a Singular. So if your professor is say an English Major... they aren't going to be so fond of this. This is why the trans/gender neutral community need to get together to create an official gender neutral term. If it weren't so ridiculously complicated then people would be far more willing to accept it and it wouldn't need to be implemented as a law. This is why I am so against the law. The law is not needed. If you make it simple, society will eventually adapt to it. Also considering the extreme obesity America, there are a lot of people who quite frankly I can't tell the gender of. So of course I understand the issue of not wanting to offend someone. But this is yet another reason why an official gender neutral term is viable. |
I did not find a law that specifically says it is illegal to call someone by the wrong pronoun. I only found laws that make it illegal to harass or discriminate against people because of their gender identity. I might be looking in the wrong places, so would you please be able to point me to a specific law that explicitly talks about pronouns
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And THEY can be singular. It's been around since the 14th century; and given that language evolves - it just makes sense to move towards it in a society that is becoming more and more equitable. Like, it irks me to no end when I see gendered language in textbooks where it should be gender neutral. Or the he/she thing. THEY. THEY exists and is actually grammatically correct to use! And professionals, teachers, doctors, nurses, whoever - can use gender neutral language until corrected to do so else wise. And by 'outed' I mean someone who is trans, who goes by a different name, being outed because the teacher calls their given name on the roll call, or uses the wrong pronouns (this is on purpose, after discussion - which has happened to students that I know). This law, that the thread is about, would protect the student, and this is where the hyperbolized fine would come into play for the teacher or professor or whoever. As for this drug you mentioned... Both sexes should be using proper PPE when handling it. Your doctor is going to know your sex when prescribing it - so gender doesn't really matter in this scenario?? Healthcare is not on your side in being against gender identity and the use of pronouns. It's best practice. |
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Physicist Michio Kaku says gravity comes from a curve in outer space. Well, what curve? Then he will say gravity occurs from a spinning mass. Yet no experiments can produce even the smallest amount of gravity. Neil DeGrasse Tyson states that the earth is an "oblate spheroid", yet every image of earth NASA has released is a completely round spherical earth. On top of that, these renderings (And that is what those are, not photos) show continents that are a different disproportional size each year a new cgi or painted rendering of the ball earth is released. About NASA, if astronauts really did land on the moon, then why can't the Apollo landing sites be viewed from a telescope? And why isn't the a 24 hour live feed from the moon looking at earth? How did three astronauts and a four-wheeled land rover fit into the Apollo 11 lunar module? And why is there no dust on the lunar module? If the lunar module landed with thrusters on a dusty moon surface where there is no air, wind, very little atmosphere, and in the vacuum of space, dust clouds would be a problem for hours, days, weeks, or who knows how long. More questions about gravity: how does water cling to a spinning ball? Why gravity, of course! So why does water fly off of a wet tennis ball? Is gravity selective? And just how does gravity force the world's oceans to not only remain on a globe spinning at 1000 miles per hour, but also makes water curve. This gravity is amazing. Here's a question about the death's core. Your beloved scientists say that the death's core is molten nickel. If the world's deepest hole, which the Russians drilled on their Kola peninsula, is but 8 miles deep, which is the farthest down man has been able to dig, how does science know what is at the death's core? These questions cause me to lose any faith I once had these scientists. Did it hurt my pride learning that what I was taught in school was a flat out lie? Yes. But not much. Certainly not so much that refused to learn anything more contrary to my indoctrination in school. Quote:
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Salvete - It's already illegal to discriminate or harass based on sex.
You've already shown it. The incredibly vague laws which you posted on the page previous could also apply to calling someone the wrong pronoun repeatedly. Vague laws can be exploited, as those pronouns are recognized so they could be applied within those laws as gender discrimination. Also don't forget America is increasingly sue-happy so any excuse to sue people and they will do it. 2femme - So are you implying that all literature must be gender neutral for you? What about those of us that are not gender neutral? I think an author should be allowed to choose the gender of which their implied person is. Why does the gender of people in a book matter to you? The author has the right to choose how he/she/they/it writes it. If they are being called by their "given name" it is because that is the name the professor is given. If that is your legal name the professor/teacher should be permitted to use that name. If they want a name different from their given name they can have their first name changed legally. As for he/she usage. I'm still baffled by why it matters. Why do they care so much about a pronoun? I know people who have been called the wrong gender as well. They didn't care. It wasn't some traumatizing event for them. I also know a teacher that struggled with this for a long time. Not all trans people are out to their parents as well so it gets increasingly complicated when you have parent teacher conferences. Would it not also classify as outing if you say the gender they prefer in front of their parents who know them by a different gender? Trans and gender fluid individuals are an incredibly small fraction of society right now. By probability saying he or she is more likely to connect with an individual or a reader. Using they disconnects you from them and will make it seem like you don't care. So you are asking that we use gender neutral terms first and be corrected by the 320 million people instead of the 1.4 million (as of 2016)? Edit - Also what is the gender neutral term for Sir/Madam? When you say Yes Sir no Sir yes ma'am no ma'am it is a respectful way to refer to someone. What is the official gender neutral version of this? Cause I can't find anything that's even remotely able to be pronounced. THEY does not fit here. Mr. Wrong - Well, sit in a car and go 80 miles per hour. You can't feel it. but stop it, and you will feel it. Drop a ball. There is your gravity. Just because a sphere is an oblate spheroid does not mean that the shape is visible to the naked eye There isn't a 24 hour live feed because they didn't take up a live feed. Quite frankly I wish they did as that would be amazing. But you'd call that CGI too. The reason you can't see the landing site is the same reason they wouldn't be able to see you. It would require a telescope with power much higher than your telescope because the moon is very far away and very large. You use your comparison of a spinning tennis ball but you fail to apple the the proper mathematics. 1. The earth spins in one cycle every 24 hours. Replicate this with the ball. It will not fly off as you claim. 2. Scale the water down with the ball and the water molecules will be smaller and more susceptible to gravity of the ball. 3. Put this ball in space where water tries to make a sphere. Not only will it cling to the ball but it will become an oblate spheroid. We know about the core because of earthquakes. You can measure an earthquake that happened on the near opposite side of the world. All of those things have existed since ancient times. So why has the world not ended yet? The "son" also already showed up and left. Why then was there no end of the world hm? But lets face it... this has nothing to do with the topic at hand. |
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You do realize that you have to pay in order to sue another person? People are not going to be automatically "sue-happy" and front a bunch of their own money over accidental misuses of a pronoun without good reason. |
Is there a legally defined number of times in which it allows a lawsuit? I didn't see any. The receiver gets to decide when they get offended. That means the first time or the second time you make that mistake could be classified as offensive.
Maybe not everyone will. But I've seen people sue over many things that don't make sense. But as I've stated, it's already illegal to discriminate, it's already illegal to harass someone. A teacher can't discriminate or harass students. If they believe that the teacher is calling them by the wrong gender intentionally then they file a complaint. The process is looked into and if the teacher is found to have committed discrimination or harassed the student they will be disciplined or fired. If a person in power does the above it's already against the law. I am against it because it is redundant, and makes it a lot easier to abuse the system for a small minority of people. |
It is illegal to discriminated based on sex. Not gender identity (yet). But look at sexuality for example, until it was protected under the law there were so many people being denied services. This simply protects gender diverse people. And it's not just about the pronouns. It protects them so they can access the correct services (such as female police for strip searches for a mtf trans person), use the right bathrooms, etc.... It's not redundant. It's necessary.
And this in no way limits your freedom of speech, because harassment isn't covered under freedom of speech... And purposefully misgendering someone is - you got it - harassment. And by no means am I saying someone needs to memorize pronouns for all their students. But using gender neutral language where possible makes for an inclusive environment. ALSO - since it's such a 'small population' as you've mentioned. If one or two students out of 600 comes to the professor, it is more then reasonable for the professor to memorize their pronouns and names. :) Also - no - just because you have a legal name doesn't mean anyone should be able to use it. Not everyone can afford a name change, or is old enough, or perhaps they're just waiting for approval. I have friends whose mental health is severely effected when they are misgendered and deadnamed. So you can pull all your examples of how 'it's not a big deal' - but I have tons in my back pocket that say it is. And the research will back me up on how microaggressions - such as misgendering have a detrimental effect on mental health. And if the student is out at school and not at home then that needs to be a discussion between the student and the teacher. And, if the teacher was any good - they'd be checking in on the students mental health and maybe setting them up with the school councilor after the fact to make sure they're okay. I'm not saying characters in books have to be gender neutral - if a character is a given gender - they can use it. But for example - in Nursing. MANY of the textbooks use 'she/her/hers' when referring to nurses, or the reader. It makes many of the male nurses uncomfortable in a profession where they already deal with a lot of crap for being guys. Here would be an appropriate use of they. I'm also talking about eliminating he/her .... like when I see he/her in writing it totally takes me out of what I was reading because it's just awkward? They works perfectly. Bascially writing in the context where the intended audience is unclear; or when talking about some made up character such as "the doctor" they can use gender neutral language and not make all the doctors males and nurses females. :) My whole point is - protecting gender diverse people isn't that hard. As for honorifics - if you know the gender identity of the person it's fine to use sir or madam. In writing you can use Mx. Surname (I myself use Mx, but I also hate Miss, Mrs and Ms being dictated by my marital status). When referring to an audience 'distinguished guests' or 'gentle people' Just using someones name is usually my go-to. But I don't much care for being 'polite' and traditional manners. I think they're becoming obsolete for the most part, especially with how language changes. Look at the whole "Thank you" "You're welcome" vs "Thank you" "No problem" One is primarily used by younger people; and it has a different connection to it. Where as you're welcome makes it seem like I'm doing you a big favor by helping you - no problem insinuates that I had the expectation to help others and it wasn't an issue to do so. Basically language evolves; and fighting the trend towards gender neutral terms is an effort in futility, imo. |
FYI Ms. is the equivalent of Mr. where it does not specify marital status
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Salvete - Everything can be a loophole depending how big of a lawyer you have.
2femme - If there was an official term to use for people who are gender neutral, as I've said, then people are going to be willing to work on it. As for the trans group. If that trans person identifies as He or She, then there's really no problem. Introduce yourself as such, and people will follow suit. If they don't, they use the single gender neutral term the majority accepts. A lot of things have an effect on someone's mental health. Okay let me stop you at the part about nursing. You assume that men get offended for use of a gender for the general majority? I've never been offended by this because it's unreasonable to be offended by it. A nurse will most likely be female, a doctor maybe male? I haven't looked at the statistics of that. A pharmacist is likely female from what I've seen at work, and pharmacy techs are most likely female as well. A soldier at war is most likely to be male. To be offended by this is simply shallow. Transitional manners are obsolete? That's an interesting claim given the mass majority is a sir or a madam. Also one thing I have been specifically told is that in the southern states if you do not use Yes Sir Yes Ma'am, you are prone to offending the individuals in that culture. You may also come across as disrespectful to the police officer speaking to you. When I get an interview, I am going to use "Sir" or "Ma'am". If I don't I may not get the job for being disrespectful to superiors. Yes language evolves. But what you are asking is that all the previous generations who say "you're welcome" to start saying "no problem" or get a fine. Society will evolve, and it doesn't need harassed into doing it. I am not fighting the trend. I am simply the older generation. It will take me far longer to adapt than someone young like you. Edit - Also, with all this modern push for safe spaces and safe wording, were are breeding a generation of people who can't handle offense. We are breeding a generation of weak people. People who are so shallow, that they are offended by the labels which they give themselves. My labels however do not define me, my gender does not define me. To misgender me, is simply to identify me wrong. It's not worth my time to get offended for getting called "ma'am". I know a man who has on many occassions been called "ma'am". He doesn't freak out and make a big deal of it, he simply moves on confident that he knows what he is, and that is ultimately what matters. But when the world reaches the peak of it's course, we will be a society so weak and politically correct, my mere existence will offend people. |
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But - gender is not as simple cut, so you're going to encounter individuals who use other pronouns - and while you are not expected to use them without knowing, or expected to get it right 100% of the time.... if someone in your life asks you to use their correct pronouns it is NOT hard to do so. Quote:
Like warning your neighbors if you're going to set off fireworks in case someone has PTSD. Or HCP taking courses in GPA to better work with their dementia patients. Quote:
I'm more annoyed - because women and men have been traditionally funneled into jobs based on their gender. It's why you're seeing such things like STEM programs for young girls to encourage them into the sciences instead of traditionally feminine jobs. I have computer scientists friends who run coding camps for young girls; and they're always telling me how a lot of the young girls 'didn't know they were allowed to like computers'. So offended? Nah. But I'm not going to take tradition at face value. I'm going to challenge it. Quote:
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Your friend gets misgendered and doesn't care? Cool. These laws are not for him. It's for MY friend who goes home and has panic attacks because their gender dysphoria is so bad; and their teacher keeps calling him 'miss'. |
That is my issue. I am expected to use these "made up" pronouns for people. If someone wants called a bi-gendered wolf-kin and their preferred pronoun is "pup" or something, it becomes extremely absurd. The whole point of this thread is because this is the path our world is taking.
Gender dysphoria and species dysphoria are not being viewed as what they are. A disorder. But to run around acting like I believe the term is a "snowflake", they are behaving like children, unwilling to admit the reality that they have a disorder. Now I'm not saying that they need "cured". The issue is that you are two-faced on the matter. You're annoyed when we don't call you by the right gender, but we can't be offended if you don't give the correct respectful reply. It's a double standard. Given the reasons I have seen people run to safe spaces, it has me incredibly concerned. Even having their ideas be challenged, causing them to run away because it triggers them. It's not healthy behavior. Warning your neighbors? Do you understand how far the sound of a firework goes? The day will be over before you finish. Of course, doing so would be respectful, but it is not against the law to not tell them. It's simply the polite thing to do if you know one. But what happens when people get offended when you talk to them like they have no gender? Then you end up with a mass of people getting offended by any option you take. Regarding jobs. I couldn't care less how many women are in STEM, because that's a political stunt. The majority of dangerous jobs are done by men. Until women take equal footing in that they will never get equality in the workforce. They will simply be getting pampered. I don't see people fighting for women to be sewer operations managers or something. |
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---------- Post added 10-03-2017 at 08:57 PM ---------- There are also more female law students than male law students now. So, more female lawyers than male lawyers soon. ---------- Post added 10-03-2017 at 09:04 PM ---------- Quote:
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Thank you for the correction Salvete. I don't see doctors very often.
I have known people of that group Salvete, but they did not get anxiety or run to a safe space when we spoke if I made a mistake. They addressed it like an adult. No fines were needed to harass me into my place. To get my respect, one must give it. This law allows them to DEMAND my respect else I pay the consequences. One person in particular it took me about a month to get it right somewhat consistently. I asked them to continue to correct me, and they do so politely because they understand it's hard for some people to adjust to. This person also knew that gender dysphoria is an unnatural disorder. But my issue is quite simple Salvete. It has less to do with the pronouns and more to do with the law. For an organization, they can choose to if they support the student discipline the person or fire them. However, according to the freedom of speech LAW, I have the right to incorrectly identify someone. That does not mean that I should. The issue here is when a government gets involved. When you begin to fine people money for speaking words of everyday life, you come to a very dangerous future. There is already people pressuring the governments in some places to remove the freedom of speech so as to protect these individuals. The moment you lose freedom to speak, you can lose every single right you have with no way to speak up against it. So my issue is specifically with the law of it. 2femme - To add regarding your friend. They have 2 options. First, talk to the teacher privately, and maintain a respectful attitude as they speak. If the student is disrespectful to the teacher (such as making loud outbursts when the misgendering happens instead of politely correcting them), the teacher is not going to put much effort into maintaining the proper pronouns. Second, go to therapy. Not a safe space, but legitimate therapy. It is a mental disorder and they need to treat it like one. |
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Being racist is not illegal. It can get you fired from work, but they wont fine you. So to answer your question, no, racial discrimination laws do not demand my respect. Demanding respect is when you decide what words I CAN use, not what words I CAN NOT use. For racial slurs, it tells me what words I can not use. For this issue at hand, it tells me the exact words I must use. This video seems to make some good points: It seems that racial slurs are legal in some places while use of all the pronouns are illegal. |
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I've mentioned many times that the way this thread presents the new law is inflammatory and exaggerated. The law is simply putting gender identity under protection of the constitution... Like sexuality, like race, like sex. There is no specific law saying 'you will be fined if you don't do or say this'. No one is going to fine someone because they accidentally used the wrong pronouns. And it is not 'limiting your freedom of speech' - because purposefully using the wrong pronouns is harassment and is not covered under freedom of speech. What this does do - as I've said before - is provide gender diverse people protection under the law. It is saying - so it cannot be disputed - that 'yes, purposefully and repeatedly using the wrong pronouns is harassment'. Because, as someone previously mentioned - loopholes will be found. Just as loopholes were found for race, sex, and sexuality before they were afforded the same protection. You're issue is that you don't like it, or understand it. Plain and simple. |
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To put it into perspective, if a white man identifies as a black man, we are not going to automatically call them a black man. This is unusual and unnatural so it would take a long time for society as a whole to adjust to. Secondly their legal papers label them as white. To require us to call this person black simply because he thinks he is black, and to impose a fine if we refuse is absurd. Of course I would be willing to try to adjust to it, but given the way my mind works I will not get it right for a while. Other parts of societal advancement did not require extortion to make progress. They did not have to force their views on the rest of the world by threat. The world is adapting over time. Younger generations are more tolerant than older generations. While this law as you say has benefits... that fine is going to smear all over their cause. That fine will do more damage than good in their quest for equality. There are 2 issues that I see with gender identity politics being brought up. The fine, and the number of approvable pronouns. The fine scares people and creates hostility toward those who want the pronouns used. The approvable pronouns is an issue because unless you limit it, the number of pronouns that you have to learn will continue to expand. If they removed the fine, and chose a single gender neutral pronoun to be the official pronoun for the community (such as Zir for example), I could see them making a lot more progress. Of course it will still take the next generation to begin to fully adapt to this change. |
Do you feel like you would ever be in a position where you would have to repeatedly remember someone's pronoun and say it out loud?
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I have a friend who suffers from Gender Dysphoria. It took me about a month of regularly talking to them to completely correct myself.
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