-eye roll-

You talk about abortion as if it were population control. What next? More research into eugenics?

And I don't mean to direct this at you, and call you something you may not be, but it seems to me that these damn liberals want it all. If it weren't for them, sex would not be so highly exploited in media, people wouldn't be handed free money, and fewer kids would be having sex and giving handjobs in middle school! I blame sex education in middle school for this highly sexualized youth. -sigh-

No, because you know nothing about pregnancy or adoption and yet think you have a right to judge the decisions she has made about her body.

Adoption sucks, pretty much. There is no guarantee this child you care so much about while she's in the womb will ever find a home, and if she does, that it will be a caring, providing, non-abusive home.

I like how you say "9 more months" like it's 9 months of normal life. It's not. Pregnancy weakens women physically, and makes them more vulnerable to illness. For at least the last few months, a pregnant woman is not able to work or do things she normally would. If there are complications, she may be stuck without a source of income for far longer. During this time, she may very well be fired, because why would a company keep someone on the payroll who isn't there for several months? If she's in school (whatever level), she will most likely be forced to drop out. At the same time, she is expected to be getting proper prenatal care, which can be very expensive.

All that's before the labour itself, which is not only another huge expense, but also dangerous. Despite what anti-choicers might want you to believe, women do still die from complications during labour. They can also, irony of ironies, suffer complications that don't kill them but make future childbirths risky or even impossible, meaning that in the future when they are able to care for a child and want to, they won't be able to have one.

And you dare to call Molly "selfish and in denial"? Don't make me laugh.

Now that I've said my piece, I'm going to wait for Molly to rip you apart, provided she hasn't already done it while I was writing this :)

I have a history of seriuos depression. I've been hospitilized several times. I've attempted suicide 3 times. I've been raped and was physicly abused by my mother and stepfather as a child. I tend to dwell on the most negative aspects of my life. To put it simply.. it's taken years and years to come to a point where I was mentaly stable enough to deal with a lot of things.

I know my own mind, and I know what would have happened had carried those two fetuses to term. I would have HAD to give them up for adoption, there would have been no choice in the matter, and I would have ended up killing myself because of the constant pain. Never knowing what happened to them, who has them, if they're safe, if they're happy, if they're angry that I gave them up. And never knowing if my own depression effected them, and if they felt like taking their own lives.

I have a brother and a sister I love very much. A few times growing up, we where sent into foster care, but always, we where too old, and no one was willing to keep us. I have a brother who was born when I was 10 years old. He would be the youngest. My mother decided to give him up right away, before he got too old. I have no idea where he is or what happened to him. I never will know.. It still bothers me, and I'm almost 30 years old. I can't Imagen the pain that would cause if it was my own child, and I know I wouldn't survive it.

A lot of pro-lifers say that the fetus should only be aborted if the mother is in danger. Well depression can be a dangerous thing.

And I would rather not talk about some of the things I just said at any length. I don't like thinking about them, but I did want to make a point. If you have any questions, ask, but make them short, please?

For everything else, Philomel said it all. You say 9 months isn't much, shouldn't be worried about.. til you've lost your job, lost your home, have no one to support you, have no health insurance, can't buy food or pay rent. It's not normal life.

There are SO MANY reasons to get an abortion, and all a hard core pro-lifer can say is "Think about the baby!" and ignore everything else.

@The_Good_Kid_13: I don't support eugenics. I live in a state where eugenics were practiced on people with mental disabilities. But the fact is we do need to control the population size somehow. I'd be in total support of there being better sex ed taught to kids that isn't censored as much. because that's what ends up happening with sex ed. They don't go into too much detail when teaching it because they're afraid of parents getting upset because their kids were exposed to that kind of stuff. I don't think there's any sort of proper education on sex and that sort of thing until high school. And then we get into the subject of schools who teach abstinence (which doesn't work either I might add). When they teach kids that, it makes them completely unprepared for when they do eventually have sex. So unless they teach proper sex ed to kids across the board in middle school. Every school in the US teaches it in a way that it will actually PREVENT most unwanted pregnancies so abortion wouldn't be an issue.

I suggest you read some of the thread before you just jump into and start calling people names. Also, no, you CANNOT just call her whatever you like. It is against the debate rules to attack someone like you have done actually. You can have your freedom of speech, but say goodbye to your account if you wish to keep it up :D

Sorry, but your "dangers" that you went through and complications were birthing issues, something no one could have predicted until it happened. Also, c-sections are extremely common now, that's not exactly a complication. Labor inducement is also extremely common. My sister had labor induced because the baby developed far faster than normal. (she was ready to go at 7 months). I also know someone who had labor induced so that the baby would be born on Halloween. I don't see how either of those are complications. There are dangers that last far after birth and also during the entire pregnancy. I had a good friend of mine die at a very young age because of pregnancy complications. The doctors straight out told her that she would most likely die if she chose to carry the child to term. She chose to anyways. She died, a very painful death. The child didn't survive either.

So, before you go calling someone selfish, maybe you should know what other people have gone through and the serious dangers of pregnancy. If someone had told my friend that she would have been selfish to chose to live over having an unwanted pregnancy, I would have punched them in the face. She lost her life, the baby didn't even survive, and we all lost a very good, dear friend.

This is a site. Constitution doesn't apply here. And as many times as I've been told to "not make it personal", no, you don't have a right to call her whatever you want.

I will tell you you don't know about the dangers because you don't. Oooh, you pumped a baby out, that makes you SUCH an expert! Those "9 months" you talked about so nonchalantly, like any woman not willing to go through it for a lump of cells she'll never know is just being selfish and lazy, can end in death. Nice try at diverting my attention from the fact that you ignored my entire fucking post besides one sentence, though.

Also, I need to address this dumbassery you posted.

If by "all" you mean "human rights" then yes, we do. But that's a fairly foreign concept to you conservatives, so I'm not surprised you don't understand.

Hold the fucking phone. Really? You honest to god believe it's us ebil liberals? Sex has been exploited in the media for as long as there's been a media. You know who does it the most nowadays, who use mostly nude women in sexy, submissive poses as objects to promote products, and who then turn around and say that nothing's wrong with it? Conservatives. Oh sure, there's the occasional conservative who gets his panties in a wad over sex in the media, but he's upset that he has to look at it, not because it's demeaning or unnecessary or furthers our fucked-up relationship with sex. If anyone's trying to actually fix things, it's liberals.

And that would be good why, exactly? We have made it impossible to live in this country without money. So poor people should just die, I guess.

Oh, and by the way? That glorious adoption system you seem to worship pumps out far more people who will likely be impoverished their entire lives than would be otherwise. So either take care of the people you're causing to be born, or don't pretend to care about them while they're in someone's uterus, because you aren't fooling anyone by pretending it's about the kiddies.

Oh, so all those studies that have been done showing that abstinence-only education not only doesn't stop kids from having sex but actually causes more unwanted teen pregnancies because they're stupid enough to think telling someone who's body is saying HAVE SEX NOW DAMMIT not to have sex will work and not bothering to tell them how to do it safely are just part of a huge liberal conspiracy, right?

What you conservatives *really* need to learn to get over is the fact that we are born to breed. Our bodies tell us to start reproducing as soon as we're physically able to and don't stop until we die. Telling someone not to have sex because it's dirty and naughty and BAD, simply because you say it is, does not work, and if you ever had one of these things we evil liberals refer to as "thoughts", you'd realize that your way doesn't make sense.

I had a C Section with my daughter. My labor stopped at 3 cm and contractions stopped. They gave me patosin but nothing happened. After 38 hours (after my water broke) they had to give me a C Section. It was a perfectly normal in every way pregnancy. She got an infection from being without fluid for so long and spent a week and a half in the hospital. I have no idea why the Dr. waited so long to do the C Section, no one ever told me.

But that's neither here nor there.

I stand very firmly on the views of abortion. My views are mostly conservative, and so, for the most part, you probably see where this is going. No, it's not gonna be hate-filled though. :)

I believe that abortion, as it is, is, is not necessarily murder. However, the fetus is alive and an abortion does kill it. I liken this to a mouse. You find out there's a mouse in your house and most people instantly set out traps or poison. This isn't really fair when you think about it, because mouse hasn't done anything wrong, per se. It's just in your house and you find it as a nuisance, so you do what you can to get rid of it. You can't think of a way to catch it and release it elsewhere, so you kill it. Yes, I know this isn't a perfect analogy because mice sometimes carry disease(I'll address that part of the analogy in a moment), but in reality, most don't. They just eat your food and live in your house, which, in reality, is what a fetus does too.

No, I'm not comparing your baby to a mouse. I'm comparing their lives.

Anyways, I disbelieve in abortion the same way I disbelieve in the needless killing of the mouse. The fetus was simply made. It didn't ask to be. It's not fair, in my opinion, to kill something that was likely put into its situation by a decision you made.

Sure, it may have been an accident. Sure, it may have been rape. But still, it's not the baby's fault.

I think the only time that I fully approve of abortion is in the case where the woman's life is in danger. Going back to the mouse analogy, if the mouse does in fact carry disease and will pass that disease along to you if you don't kill it, then by all means kill it. Still, I would prefer you only simply get rid of it, but that may not be possible. It is IMPOSSIBLE to get rid of the dangerous fetus, other than killing it, so if you must kill it to save your own life, then I can stand by it. I wouldn't do that if I were the mother, as I would never put anyone before me, but I can see how many women would opt to save their own lives.

As far as rape and accidental pregnancy goes, there is always adoption. If the baby is the product of rape, again, that's not the baby's fault. Put it up for adoption. It's much better in my opinion to put the baby in the loving arms of a family who is willing to adopt rather than kill it before it gets a chance. I actually, in most cases, prefer adoption over abortion.

Give that kid a chance. :)

@khboy0:

As someone who was raped by my own step father, if I had become pregnant because of him and wasn't given the option to abort it.. I would have rather died than go through nine months of carrying the horrible, disgusting memory of what happened.

I literally wouldn't be able to stand it. Knowing that the product of his sickness and perversion was living inside of me, growing when I never asked for it or wanted it. I'd kill myself and wouldn't regret it in the slightest if I couldn't get an abortion. Carrying it to full term absolutely wouldn't be an option.

And it's not because I'm selfish, but because the experience is so damaging. It's something that really eats away and destroys you normally, adding a child created from that horrible ordeal just makes it a thousand fold worse. It's a constant reminder of what happened, how vulnerable you were, how badly your trust and body was violated.

Child birth should be happy. It shouldn't be a punishment or something that makes you want to kill yourself.

You were reasonable until you started with the parts about restricting the availability to abortion and adoption. Read back the past.... 15 pages. We've beaten those dead horses into a pulp.

But, if you're lazy, I have two things to say.

It is unethical to restrict safe medical procedures with legislation instead of by the recommendations of a medical professional, period. If you do that, then the patient (in this case, the mother) will find a way to do it illegally and unsafely. That's why abortion was legalized to begin with.

Adoption centers are too crowded and will not necessarily result in a home for the child. Only 2% of couples ever adopt. Adoption is not a viable alternative to abortion at this point in time. Our society is not built for that, unfortunately.

I don't see why a woman should have to have a child if she was raped. You say that the child didn't have a choice, but neither did the mother. That right there makes your logic flawed. Just because the fetus didn't ask to be doesn't mean the mother who didn't ask for the pregnancy should have to take it to term. I realize that this can apply to any unwanted pregnancy, even when the sex is consensual, I just think it makes the most sense in the rape case.

@Lore:

You have a point I acknowledge. I wouldn't know what it was like to be raped, having never been there. I also wouldn't know what it's like to be pregnant, lacking the gender-related body parts required. And you might be right, the baby may be a constant reminder of what happened to you. I used to think like that. However, I have a friend. She was raped and a pregnancy developed from it. She decided to keep the baby and the baby is now a year and a half and my friend couldn't be happier. True, she wasn't happy at first, and she was strongly considering abortion for a month or so. But then, she decided that the baby was a blessing given to her in a less-than-favorable way. She struggles trying to raise the baby, being only 19 and in college. But she's making it and I admire her very strongly. My opinions are not ill-founded.


[email protected]

First thing..um...I never said I believe abortion should be illegal. I simply said that it's a decision that I would not myself make. The same thing goes with cigarette smoking. I don't ever want to smoke, but there are several people who like to and want to and I think that, as long as they know what they're getting themselves into, it should remain perfectly legal.

As far as adoption goes, you have a point, Keyori. There aren't enough adopters out there to fill everyone's needs. But all I said was "Give that kid a chance." Take a chance. If you are unwilling to have faith that it will work for you and that adoption is not reliable in the slightest, then yeah, go ahead and abort the kid if you don't think you can handle it yourself.

I suppose I misunderstood your intent then, but at least that's not a decision you ever have to make, seeing as you don't have the required equipment to, well, host a fetus ;)

It's okay, Keyori. I'm not gonna go breaking our friendship over it. I just wanted to reiterate my points and acknowledge yours.:)


And no, I don't have the required equipment to host a fetus. I kinda wish I did sometimes though. lol

No. No you don't. You do not want girl parts. YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE GETTING YOURSELF INTO! D:

If presented with the option to completely change my gender without having to go through all of the horrible stuff and wind up with functioning genitals, I would. But, that's still MAGIC at this point, and my fiance said he can't love me if I have a penis ._.

I don't really have a desire to change my gender though. I'm comfortable with my genitals (just not my hormones garrr!) and my cat-shelf (large chest). I just wish my ovaries weren't FUBAR D:

Ah-ha! Now I have a new topic idea. :ninja:

ok, so i've been reading through this thread starting from the time I first posted till now. I don't even know where to begin. But, since there's all this political shit-flinging, why doesn't someone outline just what it is that the term "pro-choice" means and why they believe abortions are acceptable and NOT insult, demean and fling shit for a second so people can actually understand what it all means instead of seeing people just throwing insults at each other

Killing =/= Murder.

From Google Definitions:
As abortion is a legal procedure, it is not an unlawful killing, and therefore, not murder.

The rest of your argument is emotional appeal, which is not a valid argument. I suggest you take a step back and consider how you sound to the other users.

Alright guys, you've been told multiple times. Tone it down. Fighting and name-calling is uncalled for. This is supposed to be an intelligent debate, not a name-calling fight.

One more report for harassment, name-calling, or general flaming and this thread WILL be locked.

So remember to keep it civil.

I believe it should be The "Good" Kid who gets blame for the name-calling this time. People were trying to debate with her, and she resorted to calling people "murderer".

If this is not cause for a severe warning, then I'd like to point out my disgust with the moderation team and my concern for the possibility of bias.

really? U r blowing the whistle? u seemed to have aboslutely NO problems when several of the posters on this thread were insulting my views, my intelligence and not to mention ME just for being a bloody male. but now that the mods take a few minutes to post, you wanna bring up bias? please, let it go. if you think good kid should get the warning, go for it. but if i can keep the whistle off my lips, i think you can too.

I didn't bring up your posts because I didn't feel you were flamed. To outright be called a murderer and morally bankrupt is much different than "I think abortion should be considered a woman's issue" or "Please type out your words".

You really are a judgmental person, aren't you? Well I guess some people can't help that. YOU feel that I shouldn't have done those things. YOU think I was wrong and YOU think I was selfish. Is it about me or you? You have so much to say about my life, yet I don't see you sitting beside me living it. I think you're the one being selfish, now. You're the one deciding who is right and who is wrong based on YOUR point of view. From this, I can guess you aren't a religions person.. Thou shalt not judge.

If you where lucky enough to have a child, keep it, care for it, have people to support you and so on, good for you, wonderful. Not everyone is so lucky, and I think if you gave a crap about anyone but yourself, you would respect that a person has to make her own choices, just like you did.

9 months of being worried, uncomfortable.. Oh are you even listening to yourself? Try 9 months of being jobless and no one would hire a pregnant woman, try 9 months have careing for a husband who had been in a car acident and could barely move. try 9 months of no income, no family support and no insurance. Yeah, I put my own life and my husbands life ahead of a fetuses life.. I also put the life of my daughter ahead of it. I went through HELL as a child. I spent 15 years in homeless shelters and living in the trunks of cars. I was NOT going to let that happen to my child, and if I'm selfish for that, then so be it. I'll take that title proudly.

In trying to make your argument, you have turned your righteousness into bitterness. You don't care about anything but yourself. You want people to conform to your wants. And thank goodness they never will.

And before you say another word about murder, how about you read the last few lines on the first post of this thread. And then go read the Debate Forum guidelines.

http://www.menewsha.com/forum/commun...e-posting.html

And drop the self righteous act.