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-   -   Abortion and your views on it. (https://www.menewsha.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71619)

deweyduquesne 11-12-2009 02:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MollyJean (Post 1765625456)
Can I just point out that, when a women becomes pregnant, one of two things happens. The father stays or the father leaves. The father CHOOSES to have an involvement in the development of the fetus. It might not seem like it, but he does. If the father CHOOSES to stay with the woman and wants to have the child, then she's probably more likely to keep it. A support system and the support of a father for a child is always a consideration in abortion. My brother got his girlfriend pregnant when they where both 16.. the ONLY reason she kept it is because the he swore he would take care of her and the baby. She already had the money in hand and the appointment set up. He chose to involve himself.

Admittedly, it doesn't always work out for the best, but if a man really does care, he'll do his best.

The problem is, a lot of men walk away. Those men have NO RIGHT to say what happens. They obviously don't care.

I think the father's involvement is as diverse as the reasons for an abortion, it could happen a million different ways, and there is no way to judge any of them. But it's still not his body, and not his choice. And if he has any respect or love for the woman he's impregnated, he'll understand that it's her body, and she's not his baby factory.
not disagreeing with you in the least, but if the father chooses to stay, why shouldn't he have a say? in an ideal circumstance, both parnters decided to have sex. if something happens because of it, why does the decision making process now become one sided? isn't there an emphasis on TEAM decision-making in serious relationships?

Shalandriel 11-12-2009 02:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MollyJean (Post 1765625456)
The problem is, a lot of men walk away. Those men have NO RIGHT to say what happens. They obviously don't care.
This is what I was originally trying to address. I believe if a woman has the right to choose whether she keeps the child or not. On the other hand, I then also believe that the man should be allowed to decide if he wants to be involved or not, this includes financially. If the woman can abort the man should be able to say "I'm not paying for you to raise the child" since obviously he can't make her have an abortion.

@dewey: Like you said. Ideal. Unfortunately things can't always work that way. There is no TEAM when SHE is the one doing all the work. End of story.

deweyduquesne 11-12-2009 03:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shalandriel (Post 1765625642)
This is what I was originally trying to address. I believe if a woman has the right to choose whether she keeps the child or not. On the other hand, I then also believe that the man should be allowed to decide if he wants to be involved or not, this includes financially. If the woman can abort the man should be able to say "I'm not paying for you to raise the child" since obviously he can't make her have an abortion.

@dewey: Like you said. Ideal. Unfortunately things can't always work that way. There is no TEAM when SHE is the one doing all the work. End of story.
then there is no TEAM at all. so how can men be expected to include you at all? and no, she is not the one doing ALL the work.

Philomel 11-12-2009 03:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by deweyduquesne (Post 1765625755)
and no, she is not the one doing ALL the work.
I'm really interested in hearing you support this statement. The woman carries the fetus, the woman deals with the consequences. Unless you consider sex "work", I'm not sure what you think males are obligated to do. And I emphasize "obligated", because they can opt out of most things pre-birth, and if they do anything, it is because they chose to do so.

Shalandriel 11-12-2009 03:09 AM
Include US? I'm sorry, last I checked it was the woman who carried the child.

Physically, yes she is. When it comes to the pregnancy itself, she does all the work. There is no team or anything he can do to help with the actual pregnancy.

No team at all? I'm not really sure what you mean by this. If you're referring to the relationship then you're extremely naive to think that the only thing in a relationship that makes them a team is pregnancy.

MollyJean 11-12-2009 03:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by deweyduquesne (Post 1765625629)
not disagreeing with you in the least, but if the father chooses to stay, why shouldn't he have a say? in an ideal circumstance, both parnters decided to have sex. if something happens because of it, why does the decision making process now become one sided? isn't there an emphasis on TEAM decision-making in serious relationships?
You are disagreeing with me, but that's fine.

If the father decides to stay, why doesn't he have a say? If he can convince the mother that having the child is the right thing to do, if he can convince her that he's able to provide for them all when she is unable to work, then there is his say. If she already knows him, and knows he's just blowing hot air, then why should she listen? It's not as simple as "He gets a vote" because he doesn't HAVE to do any of the work. He can CHOOSE to. The TEAM part of this is that they're willing to agree and work together, and if they can't, if they disagrees to the point she is saying "I can't" and he is saying "you HAVE to".. well he'll probably leave her sooner or later anyway, or abuse her, and probably the child as well, so why should she base her body and life decisions on his wants?

deweyduquesne 11-12-2009 03:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philomel (Post 1765625816)
I'm really interested in hearing you support this statement. The woman carries the fetus, the woman deals with the consequences. Unless you consider sex "work", I'm not sure what you think males are obligated to do. And I emphasize "obligated", because they can opt out of most things pre-birth, and if they do anything, it is because they chose to do so.
you're right, we do choose to do alot of things that the woman does not do, but thats not the point. the point is there are things we should do, if only because we don't want u to feel like u HAVE to do everything. believe it or not, we are painfully aware just how little we do, but that doesn't mean we like it. we choose to be the ones to drive you to all of your various doctor's appointments, we choose to go with you to any and all classes that pregnant women sometimes go through. we choose to at the very least TRY to go along with some of the dietary restrictions that doctor's may or may not try to impose on pregnant women. we choose to be the ones to drive u to the hospital no matter how many times u need to go and at what time we need to leave. we choose to do all that. and please, women make the same choice. you are not obligated to get pregnant, you can take the morning after pill. u can have an abortion(i don't support it or like it, just saying it's still an option u have). u can even not have sex at all(i realize some never have that option and i still am sorry). women have just as many options as men do

Shalandriel 11-12-2009 03:21 AM
Dewey. You have no idea what we're even talking about and you are completely changing your story now.

We are talking about the actual CARRYING and DELIVERY of the child. The man does NONE of that. So you cart us around, you don't have to go through the pain, the change of lifestyle, the possible complications. You deal with NOTHING medical. To compare you driving us around to what we would have to go through is arrogant.

The morning after pill DOES NOT GET RID OF A PREGNANCY. If you are on the pill and it FAILS there is NO way for you to know until you're actually pregnant, at which time it is TOO late for the morning after pill.

Why should a woman go through pregnancy because you "might" stay. If she chooses to get an abortion it's most likely because she KNOWS you WON'T. THAT is where those men loose their say in the matter.

deweyduquesne 11-12-2009 03:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MollyJean (Post 1765625892)
You are disagreeing with me, but that's fine.

If the father decides to stay, why doesn't he have a say? If he can convince the mother that having the child is the right thing to do, if he can convince her that he's able to provide for them all when she is unable to work, then there is his say. If she already knows him, and knows he's just blowing hot air, then why should she listen? It's not as simple as "He gets a vote" because he doesn't HAVE to do any of the work. He can CHOOSE to. The TEAM part of this is that they're willing to agree and work together, and if they can't, if they disagrees to the point she is saying "I can't" and he is saying "you HAVE to".. well he'll probably leave her sooner or later anyway, or abuse her, and probably the child as well, so why should she base her body and life decisions on his wants?
ok, but unless i have been reading this entire thread wrong, it has never been an option for the man to have a say, it's been "i am the woman, u r the man. i have the child so u get no say". a good man should never say "you have to have a baby". because as we already know(and i have never thought that women are) women are not baby factories. to be honest with you, i am just having a serious problem with understanding why a man's opinion is not respected. especially if we're supposed to be "equals". how does that work?

o, and if i am not making myself clear, forgive me. i have a mental disorder that may be preventing it(and no, this isn't bullshit. it's certifiable. tho i never could tell u the name, i've never heard it's name lol)

Shalandriel 11-12-2009 03:26 AM
Now you're just lying. I remember quite clearly that earlier in the thread you plainly told us you could speak properly if you wanted to but choose to shorten words because it was just easier. Don't go making excuses for yourself, that's just bad taste.

I also clearly remember on the last page or so someone saying that if a man convince the woman to keep the child, more power to them. But when it comes down to it, it IS her decision and he is going to have to respect that. There is nothing a man can legally do to make her keep the child. You can do all the convincing you want, but in the end it's her choice.

Philomel 11-12-2009 03:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by deweyduquesne (Post 1765625921)
you're right, we do choose to do alot of things that the woman does not do, but thats not the point. the point is there are things we should do, if only because we don't want u to feel like u HAVE to do everything. believe it or not, we are painfully aware just how little we do, but that doesn't mean we like it. we choose to be the ones to drive you to all of your various doctor's appointments, we choose to go with you to any and all classes that pregnant women sometimes go through. we choose to at the very least TRY to go along with some of the dietary restrictions that doctor's may or may not try to impose on pregnant women. we choose to be the ones to drive u to the hospital no matter how many times u need to go and at what time we need to leave. we choose to do all that.
But that's the thing you're not getting: you choose to do that. Meaning you can just as easily choose not to. And unless both parents want the child and want to be involved in raising it, the male will most likely choose not to do all those things.

Quote:
and please, women make the same choice. you are not obligated to get pregnant, you can take the morning after pill.
Which pharmacies and hospitals can refuse to give me on the basis of their form of morality. Which cost money and are not covered by insurance. Which I will have to deal with shaming and assumptions about my character and lifestyle in order to obtain.

Quote:
u can have an abortion(i don't support it or like it, just saying it's still an option u have).
Which is why having abortion as an option is necessary, and while begrudging women for getting them like you're doing is not doing anyone any good.

Quote:
u can even not have sex at all(i realize some never have that option and i still am sorry). women have just as many options as men do
Yes, and all of those options involve risk, expense, and public shaming, while the most often-chosen option for men is simply to walk away. And the possible consequences for women are far more dire than for men, so you cannot compare their experiences.

deweyduquesne 11-12-2009 03:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shalandriel (Post 1765626058)
Now you're just lying. I remember quite clearly that earlier in the thread you plainly told us you could speak properly if you wanted to but choose to shorten words because it was just easier. Don't go making excuses for yourself, that's just bad taste.

I also clearly remember on the last page or so someone saying that if a man convince the woman to keep the child, more power to them. But when it comes down to it, it IS her decision and he is going to have to respect that. There is nothing a man can legally do to make her keep the child. You can do all the convincing you want, but in the end it's her choice.

properly as in proper english. i am not lying in the least. for whatever reason, sometimes what i think in my head is not translated properly to my hands, feet, mouth, etc. if I mis-spoke then i am sorry.

MollyJean 11-12-2009 03:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by deweyduquesne (Post 1765626003)
ok, but unless i have been reading this entire thread wrong, it has never been an option for the man to have a say, it's been "i am the woman, u r the man. i have the child so u get no say". a good man should never say "you have to have a baby". because as we already know(and i have never thought that women are) women are not baby factories. to be honest with you, i am just having a serious problem with understanding why a man's opinion is not respected. especially if we're supposed to be "equals". how does that work?

o, and if i am not making myself clear, forgive me. i have a mental disorder that may be preventing it(and no, this isn't bullshit. it's certifiable. tho i never could tell u the name, i've never heard it's name lol)
Let me clear this up right now. You, as a man in general, have no say over my body. None what so ever. You're just some guy I don't know, as are 99.99999(infinity)% of the men out there. The ONLY guy who will ever have a say is the one who is willing to CHOOSE to put his own ass on the line when his girlfriend/wife gets pregnant. And how much say he has is totally up to the woman, because she's the one doing ALL the work.

And I understand you live in a world where everything is perfect. Sunshine and rainbows all the time, but in the real world, with the rest of us, a man might beat his girlfriend for getting pregnant, beat her for getting an abortion, or beat her for having the kid. And yes, a man might see a woman as nothing but a baby factory. Real world sucks, huh?

And men and women have NEVER been equals. Not in the eyes of the law, not in the eyes of religion, not in marriage, not in a relationship. In a perfect world.. well you know what, I don't live in a perfect world. I got lucky, I have a man who treats me as an equal, but I'll never get his job or his pay because I've got tits, and he'll never have a baby cause his balls get in the way, and that's just the way it is.

Keyori 11-12-2009 03:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MollyJean (Post 1765626169)
...he'll never have a baby cause his balls get in the way, and that's just the way it is.
I lol'd xD

Shalandriel 11-12-2009 03:36 AM
As did I XD

MollyJean 11-12-2009 03:37 AM
But I was being serious! Hahaha!! :P

Keyori 11-12-2009 03:38 AM
That doesn't mean it's not funny ;D

MollyJean 11-12-2009 03:40 AM
hope that didn't come with visuals. >.> *waits*

The_Good_Kid_13 11-12-2009 07:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MollyJean (Post 1765614871)
You really are a judgmental person, aren't you? Well I guess some people can't help that. YOU feel that I shouldn't have done those things. YOU think I was wrong and YOU think I was selfish. Is it about me or you? You have so much to say about my life, yet I don't see you sitting beside me living it. I think you're the one being selfish, now. You're the one deciding who is right and who is wrong based on YOUR point of view. From this, I can guess you aren't a religions person.. Thou shalt not judge.

If you where lucky enough to have a child, keep it, care for it, have people to support you and so on, good for you, wonderful. Not everyone is so lucky, and I think if you gave a crap about anyone but yourself, you would respect that a person has to make her own choices, just like you did.

9 months of being worried, uncomfortable.. Oh are you even listening to yourself? Try 9 months of being jobless and no one would hire a pregnant woman, try 9 months have careing for a husband who had been in a car acident and could barely move. try 9 months of no income, no family support and no insurance. Yeah, I put my own life and my husbands life ahead of a fetuses life.. I also put the life of my daughter ahead of it. I went through HELL as a child. I spent 15 years in homeless shelters and living in the trunks of cars. I was NOT going to let that happen to my child, and if I'm selfish for that, then so be it. I'll take that title proudly.

In trying to make your argument, you have turned your righteousness into bitterness. You don't care about anything but yourself. You want people to conform to your wants. And thank goodness they never will.

And before you say another word about murder, how about you read the last few lines on the first post of this thread. And then go read the Debate Forum guidelines.

http://www.menewsha.com/forum/commun...e-posting.html

And drop the self righteous act.
My religious views have nothing to do with my views on abortion, so I'll leave those out of this.

And you put your story out there, you allowed yourself to be vulnerable and thus you allowed yourself to be judged by others. It just do happens that most people throw sympathy or pity on you. I happen to expect more from people. Yes, I put MY EXPECTATIONS on YOU. Why? Because you're a grown woman who should be able to take care of herself!

As for being homeless, the U.S. government would never allow that to happen. You're guaranteed insurance and government financial support. Like I've said before, I've been there. The only difference between me and you is that fact that I put my unborn children before myself. You chose to put yourself before everything else. I get that you were afraid of what would happen, but that doesn't warrant what you did in my opinion.

I did get a little overzealous when I said murder, and I apologize for that. It was in the heat of the moment, I assume you can understand that.

Keyori 11-12-2009 08:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Good_Kid_13 (Post 1765630275)
As for being homeless, the U.S. government would never allow that to happen. You're guaranteed insurance and government financial support.
I don't know where you got this idea, but I suggest you go to the worst part of the nearest metropolitan area and walk around. Homelessness happens, and the government doesn't guarantee anything (I'll bet you didn't know that being in dire financial need is not a good enough reason by itself to qualify for medicaid). For crying out loud, we have homeless VETERANS.

For you to claim that government wouldn't let homelessness happen is ill-informed on your part.

I have a few choice words for you right now but I'm not going to violate Mene ToS to give you a piece of my mind.

deweyduquesne 11-12-2009 08:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keyori (Post 1765630352)
I don't know where you got this idea, but I suggest you go to the worst part of the nearest metropolitan area and walk around. Homelessness happens, and the government doesn't guarantee anything (I'll bet you didn't know that being in dire financial need is not a good enough reason by itself to qualify for medicaid For crying out loud, we have homeless VETERANS.

For you to claim that government wouldn't let homelessness happen is ill-informed on your part.

I have a few choice words for you right now but I'm not going to violate Mene ToS to give you a piece of my mind.
i think he's referring to pregnant mother's not being allowed to be homeless and such. i can only say this because i have 2 sisters who were both told rather plainly that if they had more kids, the government would HAVE to give them assistance. now that may not apply to necessarily to having a home, but he is right in part, they are more or less guaranteed government assistance

Keyori 11-12-2009 08:29 PM
Then you're getting into the argument of "as a tax payer, which would you rather the government pay for?"

I'm all for fiscal responsibility, and abortions are MUCH cheaper than paying for a pregnancy and child care and care for the mother and welfare and all sorts of things. Why FORCE people to be drains on society, because they can't afford an abortion and instead have to do only what the state will pay for (which winds up being more expensive in the long run but just not out of the mother's own pocket).

Why not give the mothers a choice in the matter? "You're pregnant and you qualify for state aid. You can get an abortion or keep the child, either way it will be paid for."

And "because I disagree with it" is not a good reason. A greater proportion of the population disagrees with how much we spend on the military than the proportion of the military spending within our whole budget. (I believe it's 60-70% of the population think we're spending too much compared to 50% of the budget being for military use).

MollyJean 11-12-2009 08:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Good_Kid_13 (Post 1765630275)
My religious views have nothing to do with my views on abortion, so I'll leave those out of this.

And you put your story out there, you allowed yourself to be vulnerable and thus you allowed yourself to be judged by others. It just do happens that most people throw sympathy or pity on you. I happen to expect more from people. Yes, I put MY EXPECTATIONS on YOU. Why? Because you're a grown woman who should be able to take care of herself!

As for being homeless, the U.S. government would never allow that to happen. You're guaranteed insurance and government financial support. Like I've said before, I've been there. The only difference between me and you is that fact that I put my unborn children before myself. You chose to put yourself before everything else. I get that you were afraid of what would happen, but that doesn't warrant what you did in my opinion.

I did get a little overzealous when I said murder, and I apologize for that. It was in the heat of the moment, I assume you can understand that.
You really need to figure out if you're a strong woman, or an opinionated... Well I could use a number of words here, pick one. You had a kid a 15? Do you have any IDEA how many bad things I could say about you for that? But you know what? You CHOSE to get pregnant, CHOSE to have sex, so I'm not going to judge you, so how about you show the same damned respect.

For you to judge me for picking my OWN fucking life over that of a cluster of cells is just ignorant. And you know what, I'm to the point I don't really care of I get a warning. You already went too far. You called me a LOT more then a murderer.

And if in YOUR STATE you're lucky enough to get insurance when you get pregnant, good for you, let's throw a party. In some states, you can't. I only had partial coverage with my daughter.. it paid about half the bills, I had to cover the other $22,000 myself. The ONLY reason that happened is because I bought my own health insurance to cover the rest. Did we forget that Obama is still WORKING on universal health care? And are you just blind? Homeless doesn't happen, no, it's a myth, right? Are you even LISTENING to yourself?

You know what? I have a feeling you might have got kicked out of an apartment and lived with a friend for a week. I get the feeling you're pampered and have a family supporting you and really never had a thing to worry about. Cause you have NO IDEA what I've been through in my life, YOU DON'T KNOW A FUCKING THING ABOUT ME, and for you to just JUDGE me like that.. Yeah I'm gonna throw that right back at you.. you're a horrid person for that. You have no RIGHT to do that, and I hope karma kicks your ass for it.

Apology not accepted.

Philomel 11-12-2009 09:04 PM
Watch it, Molly. You're going to get yelled at for hurting her feelings. ;)

MollyJean 11-12-2009 09:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philomel (Post 1765630765)
Watch it, Molly. You're going to get yelled at for hurting her feelings. ;)
And it will be ignored. Just as she's welcome to ignore me. I'm not going to come onto a DEBATE forum and be berated about my life choices. If she wants to voice her dislike in a adult manner, something she claims to be, then she's welcome to. And I already said, I don't really care at this point if I get a warning, it's worth it.

Moving right along.


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