1) And while adopting from other countries is noble, it does nothing to help the orphans that live here.

2) And what if I don't want to be PREGNANT? What if I don't want the parasitic fetus in me in the first place?

I suggest you pick your words wisely. I've torn apart better arguments than these.

3) I am more concerned with not having or housing the thing in the first place. I am concerned with staying childfree until I can find a decent doctor to perform a tubal litigation on me. I am more concerned with finishing my education, getting a decent job, and--should I choose to--having a healthy, protected, child-free sex life, and being something more than a 20-some welfare mom.

What have you to say to that?

4) That's just great. So what's keeping them from adoption the MILLIONS OF CHILDREN THAT ARE ALREADY IN THE SYSTEM?! Oh, wait, nothing. Just the fact that all those other kids are black, or Asian, or older than five minutes, or have mild Down's Syndrome. Nobody wants those kids--they want the healthy white newborns, don't they?

The adoption system fucking infuriates me. If people want children so bad, they need to step it up, stop treating gay people like they have infectious diseases, and actually adopt the children in the system. Until then, and even after, I will support a woman's choice to do whatever it is she wants to do with HER fetus.

5) Pictures and definitions of what makes a mentally disabled child less worthy of life than a "normal" child, please.

1. I believe the putting more children in the orphanges and the system is far worse than depriving them of life. I've known people in and out of fosters homes, groups homes, and they hate it. How would you feel to be abonned and then never found a home, how would you like that worthless feeling of never being loved? If aborted, never exist and never would know this life.

2. Oh, I use protection, I keep watch on my health, and use birth control. Accidents happen. And I, myself can not work to support my self and a fetus I am caring. Also, there are many couples out there who have abortions, both married and not, some with kids and not, want to tell them to stop having sex? And sex does not mean consent to pregnancy. I'm not a baby machine.

3. Abortion is a better option than forcing a child into an unwanted situtation. I know I would rather see kids born into family's who want them and love them and care for them, rather than making them a punishment like you so want to do. It's irresponible to have a kid if you do not care for it or even want it.

Just because there is many programs avaiable means your child will ever be adopted. The majority of time, adoptions take place when the adoptee knows the soon to be adopters. Children whose parents are not known rarely ever get adopted.

4. The majority of people who want to adopt are White, and want White newborn babies. Look up any adoption site and look at what the people and what they want. Last time i looked on one I saw only one hispanic couple and one black couple, the 50 others were white.

And by having an abortion I am being smart about it. I'm doing something responsible and not having a child I can not take care of or even want. The fetus is a could be human being. I bleed one out every month.

5. And you example, no it is not. I've seen kids like that who are happy and healthy and loved. You should come meet my uncle, he's never going to be mentally past 3, but he's loved and happy. My mother, and many of my friends work with kids and adults like that. These are wonderful people. I'm glad you want them killed.

I don't plan on ever having kids (from my own body). But I'm young and white and I can't get my tubes tied because no doctors will do it for me. I keep getting shuttled off to get more and more opinions, psych evaluations to prove that I'm not wacko and yes I am able to consent to this procedure.

I do not, however, want to stop having sex. I am getting married in June, my fiance have a wonderful sex life. We use several forms of contraception.

If I still got pregnant? I would want the option to have an abortion. My fiance supports me in this, we've talked about it many times. We have agreed to adopt (I have various reasons for not wanting to give birth, including but not limited to a history of PPD and PPP in my family).

Just because I have sex does not mean I should be made to carry around a baby for nine months. I want kids--I don't want to be pregnant. Unfortunately, the option to permanently render myself sterile is not viable at the moment, so I have to fall back on other options.

It's not about the baby, it's about the woman carrying it. God, some idiots actually want force women to carry a child for nine month, gain weight, go through a myriad of health problems run the risk of developing diabetes and other serious health problems. Pregnancy isn't a walk in the park, people! You don't skip merrily all the way to orphanage to drop your child off into the arms of a loving couple.

It ain't all sunshine and fucking rainbows, folks.

I know that many people have expressed concern about abortions being used as a form of birth control. They complain about irresponsible people who have copious amounts of unprotected sex and use abortion to clean up after themselves. They propose that such women should not be allowed to have abortions and should be forced to have the kid as a form of punishment.

Absolutely fucking absurd.

I have to ask, have any of those people ever had abortion themselves? Have they ever gone though that trauma? My mother, my sister, and my sister-in-law have all had abortions, so I know I what I'm talking about when I say that an abortion is traumatizing. It's not something women do lightly. These people who complain about carefree abortions seem to think that women enjoy abortions, or some crap like that. Pisses me off.

I support abortion. Period. As has been well argued here already, I would prefer that the fetus never develop, than condemn it to a possibly miserable life. We have over 6 billion people on the planet, most of whom are having a hard enough time as it is. I think they deserve my attention much more than all the unborn possible people waiting in the wings.

As far as souls and God are concerned, well, if God were truly the merciful, all loving god that people like to say he is, I simply can't imagine Him punishing an unborn soul for something it had no control over, or disallowing it any further opportunity to be born.

There's my two cents.

1) Right. Because a substandard life where people grow up unloved, shunted around and unstable until they're 18 is totally a way to live life. That won't lead to mental instability, possible crime and poor education. Nope, I'm positive that ALL of them will grow up to be outstanding citizens.

Biting sarcasm aside, This doesn't answer my question. How does the "humane" decision of adoption help those that the system WILL NEVER PAY ATTENTION TO?

2) Oh, so because I'm childfree and have stated that I want to have protected sex I'm automatically a murdering harlot who spreads her legs for everything that does and doesn't move. For your information, I have planned, if I ever have sex, to use the pill, spermicidal creams, a diaphgram(sp?) and I will insist that my partner wear a condom.

News flash: BC DOES NOT ALWAYS WORK. It is EXTREMELY HARD to get a tubal. Abstinence-ed is chosen over comprehensive sex education in this country. Pharmacies and hospitals can CHOOSE not to give the Pill or Emergency Contraception because it "interferes with their religious beliefs." Yeah, I don't care if you believe in Allah or Jesus, just do your fucking job and give me the medication I need if I've been RAPED. And even if it's just me getting BC so I can stay happily childfree, you need to separate your worship from my reproductive health.

And don't expect me to go easy on you. You've contradicted yourself up there--we're not debating, but the forum's named "Debate?" I'm not going to sit in a circle with you and give you a cookie for having an opinion. I'm going to counter, and you better be prepared to back it up.

3) Me? I'm not adding to the fucking problem. Seriously, the only reason I would go into an adoption program would be to ask people if they would ever adopt a minority, older or special needs child or have adopted one already. If they say no--which, what a surprise, seems to be the majority of the cases--all they'll get is some bitching from me about their own selfishness and an order to adopt a kid who needs the love more.

Seriously? Minority programs are not hard. Usually they cost LESS and have a smaller wait to adopt. So why are people clogging up the system? Heteronormative standards, anyone?

I won't see any other kids who can comprehend and feel suffering (note those key words there, they will be on the quiz) at the expense of me pushing out some brat so that some WASP couple can feel self-justified.

4) ...You didn't answer my question, dammit. How does outlawing abortion help the children in the adoption system? There are plenty of kids in there that aren't being adopted--and most of those kids are either minorities, older kids or special needs children. The waiting line you're so fond of mentioning is only for the pweshus widdle white healthy newborns. How has adoption helped the other children?

Let's see how you answered that. You said something very vague which only confuses me more for your first sentence. You then go on to say that it's "not only WASPs" that can adopt, which besides being completely irrelevant to my point is incorrect. Sure, others CAN--that doesn't change the fact that the majority of the people out there are WASPs. You then go on to try and justify your pro-punishment philosophy by condemning people who are "reckless"--in the process, ignoring my repeatedly stated fact that over half the abortions in the US are done in committed/married couples who were USING PROTECTION. You then end on something that is completely irrelevant and appeals to emotions--which, in debate, which this is, is a logical fallacy.

5) Please do not dodge my question and request.

[color=green][size=11]Yours is a valuable perspective. I'm sorry to hear about your situation.

Some people, when arguing against legal abortion, say "well that would mean you could have been aborted" and honestly... that doesn't do anything. Because had I been aborted (and my sister as well), I wouldn't be here to care. But thankfully, I was born into a situation where my parents had been trying to have a third child, and wanted me and my sister (I am the fourth) and have been quite able to take care of us.

That would be applying earth logic to the situation. Can't have that. [/sarcasm]

But I've never understood this perspective either--and they were right, yours IS a valuable perspective. :)

I'm still young. But I do have a opinion. Abortions should be allowed. Woman being raped can use a abortion. That's it. And I understand why other people are against it. It's a living thing! But you can't wish this child a unhappy life, if the parents don't want this child. But there is a other way. Other people could adopt this child and raise it with love. But if a girl, who's just 13 years & pregnant, she can have a abortion. She's still young and I don't grant her a miserable life of 9 months of pregnancy. If i were her, I would be in shock for life. Conclusion; Go abortion. (that sounds odd)

Abortion it is just deplorable.

The sad thing is we churn out excuses like "she might not have a goodlife", "I own my body" (who even said that? can you control how you age? can you control all your bodies function? Can you dictate your heart to stop? I don't think so, mother nature owns us) etc etc etc. It's a matter of greed. We put priority first on "our needs".

It's also a matter of growing consumerism, where we tend to treat things as mere objects, babies as mere objects that we can easily get rid of if we wanted to. We have turned our own humans as pets that we just throw away because its "hassle".


It's like buying something and getting rid of it. Kapoot. Human life is being degraded, treated as mere its. Items that we can just throw away, as easy as we purchased, as easy we throw out as well.

And whatever justification people say, abortion would always still be murder in my book.

Forcing someone else to do something against their will is deplorable.

Just becuase one could have a good or bad life, it is still her choice. As far as we got, we got control our bodies till were nature takes over. I stop looking like I'm aging, I can take can of my body and get plastic surgery change how I look. With electric currents, i can stop my heart.

Humans are very selfish creatures, and by putting ourselves first is how we survive as a species.

Abortion has been around for ages. Back in the 1700 to 18000's it was legal tell the felt what was called the quickening, which was when the baby moved. It has been a practice long in Nomadic cultures, because you can not take care of more than one child at a time. Abortion is not a new or recent thing, since we have been procreating, we have found ways to prevent it. Apcothary's back in the day had herbal drinks on would drink to get rid of an unwanted pregnancy. So the arguement for consummerism, not happening, since abortion has been around for ages!

How is forcing a women to have a child she does not want or will love make human life more worthwhile? How is condeeming a child to neglect and no love or to end up in the system a good thing? I think that's more disrespectful for life than choosing to remove it before it ever existed is far worse and hateful.

Well, if that's murder, then your want for forcing people to have child they can not take care of, love or want, is just hateful to all life. All children should be loved, and not punishments.

I am against abortion unless it is the only option. For example; My body structure is not built to support a child, but I wouldn't have an abortion unless there was a chance that only one of us would live or if the baby would die no matter what, which can sometimes be determined early-on. If it's something like we just forgot a condom, I would keep the child. It's not the baby's fault! Even if the baby was from a rape, I could look at that baby without thinking of the man who raped me because I know that my boyfriend would be the baby's father, and I also know that I would see the effect, not the cause. I would see the baby as a part of me and my loving and loved child.

The people who use it as a form of birth control will soon learn that it's a turn-off for many guys these days, too.

- a misunderstood american concept. Free will is by itself destructive if some degrees of control is not put in place. That is why we have laws, that is why we have governments which is tell what not to do and what to do. If forcing someone against his free will is deplorable, then we should legalize murder.

That is why people have coined the "word" responsibility, which coincides with free will.

Aren't we killing ourselves of due to our greed and unsatiable appetite for things. We are slowly devouring the world because of our petty "wants"

You view yourselves as gods. Nature or the essence which keeps us alive might bite in you back. You must realize humans are not gods, we are just part of a thriving eco system one which we are defiling everyday.

This also begs the questions if we really can CONTROL ourselves, then why go to abortion? We are in control, nature is. true thing is, we humans are still unable to control our petty need to sustain our greed.


Are in you that situation? I live much of my life without my father, and without a really supportive mother. But still I value the life given to me. It's a blessing.


Just another way to console ourselves of our greed. A defense mechanism if you may? The question I forward to you, why is it despite all the hardship some people experience in life, they still yearn for it. And do all abortionist aspire for this? I don't think so. It only is more convenient to kill a fetus than keep it alive. And what's deplororable is that they mask their greed by arguing that it's the best interest of the child... it sickens me. They kill the human but in the end they try to console themselve by thinking that they are still morally right. These one of the greatest sceapgoats of murderers.

If poverty was the issue, then abortion is not the answer. It's in our governments, the greedy wealthy FIRST WORLD, There's enough resources to feed everyone but they are siphoned away by rich countries, which poor countries wallow in their own debts.

How could killing someone of be an answer to growing poverty?

A baby is after all another hindrance to people's corrupted perception of "free will".


Anyways opinions are opinions. i could understand you have been brought up in a world where 'freedom' is more important than the value of human life.

Let future decide.

Yet, it is you who wish to force more children into a world of destruction and greed and want more hungry mouths to be sustain. To help destory and kill the world futher.

Free will is a gift given to us by Eve, it was the first step, with given knowledge to eat from the Tree of Life. God prevent us from becoming gods, but we are on the way of eating from the Tree of life. sorry, but as we go on, more control over the human body will be created, and it is not something that is going to stop. It is not greed, but want for survival, to created a fitter spieces, which we have done since life first started.

You may view the life you have as pericious and glad you were not aborted, but others do. I have known those who wished it, and have even gone as far to take their own life. A girl even posted above stating she had. You may value it, but others do not.

It is not greedy to make sure one is ready to care for a child. To make sure they are in the right mind set, finicially stable and emotionally secure to have one.

I'm sorry your hate for life is masked by calling me greedy. I'm sorry your diswant for all children to be loved, is to call me greedy. I'm sorry you want to created excess life on a planet that is slowly crushing under the weight of who already exist and wish to force more. I'm glad you hate children enough to force them onto people who want them. And just because your parents may not care about you but you still value life, that does not mean others do. Someone already proved that in another post.

A fetus is not a baby, but a fetus. You can call it that, but to me it is a parasite.

i thionk eve debting this is stupid. The bible says to not kill, nd this is diectly killing, is it right, NO! there is no situaion that permits this most hanous of murders!

A woman who got raped should have the possibility to get rid of child if she really doesn't want it.

well, she could instead put it up for adobtion, then he could have grweta potentioal, and not have ot be killed.

A twelve year old girl can't take care of herself let alone a child.

she can once agian adobt, but her parents would help her, and if they were dead, the state woudl help provide, and if all ewlse fails, adobt!

A woman whose life it at risk if she carries through with the pregnancy.

well, if she aborts, she coudl ge sick as if she did give birht, so it would not make a difference!

Now if someone was too lazy to use a condom or birth control pills it's their own fault and they shouldn't have the choice to remove it.

True somewhat, but what makes them different? Howcome they have to keep it, and others shoudln't your logic makes no sense.

In additio, in an overall type statment. Abortion kills, and more often then not, teh women is put through horrible torture. They ahve nightmars, and pain. They have ot watch the procedure. And, about 3/4 of abortions end up in the mother commiting suicide. it just seems liek somethign that shoudl be outlawed.

1. That is your beliefs and no mine. You religious choice is not mine and there for your religion should not dictate what I or any other women do to their body's.

2. So you wish to force a women through 9 months of torture and pain to give birth to something she could consider flithy and disgusting and created by the worst act of man? Yes, some women could see the child as innocent and others may not. But that is to be left to each individual.

3. Adoption is not flowers and kittens. Just putting a child up for adoption does not mean it will have a happy and wonderful life. Often if the parents are not known, the child will not get a home. And more often than not the children that are adopted are white, healthy and newborns. So if the said rape baby does not fit that, s/he will likely ended up in the system the rest of their life.

4. A 12 year old girl body is not build to give birth and will have massive complications, including dying as a very high risk. You wish to scarfice 2 lifes then? Nor because she has parent means they will take care of her. She could easily be thrown out of the house, abused, or worse. Great plan of your to turn tweens into baby factory's.

5. There is nothing coherent with this statement.

6. Again you make no sense. But children should be loved, not punishments. Glad to know you hate kids.

7. http://www.imnotsorry.net/ easily disproves this theory. Also, many women regret giving birth and giving their children up into the adoption system and results in suicide also.
Please give proof for your statement.[/url]

How about "bodily domain" then? If there is a fetus in my body--no need to be scared of a medical term--it will get out. One way or another.

How? Oh, I don't know. I hear cotton root bark is simply fabulous. Throwing oneself down the stairs or getting yourself beaten is hard to do and painful, but for me the possible outcome might outweigh the risks. Coathangers? Knitting needles?

Of course I might poison myself. I might even die. But I bet that wouldn't be a loss. Just one more evil, desperate babykiller out of the world, right?

...You disgust me.

So instead of doing something you're going to get up on your soapbox and target a group of people whose decisions are NOT your fucking business.

The Crusades ended years ago, bucko. Go join Greenpeace or something and leave the choicers alone.

Hardly. I am a humanist--humans are the highest moral authority there is, and it's our responsibility to decide for ourselves what is right and what is not.

And what the fuck does this have to do with abortion? Stay on topic.

Or maybe--just maybe--over half of the abortions in the US are from people who are married/in a stable relationship and have used birth control. Radical thought, isn't it?

There are people who DO try to take responsibility for their "greed" as you call it. Myself? If I ever find a man who I like, I have three different methods of BC I'm going to use in case we ever do become intimate. I want my tubes tied as soon as I get out of college. I don't want or need children--have you figured this out already?

And yet if I become pregnant--because even if you're responsible, BC DOES fail--I will get an abortion. Because I will not have any child raised to be neglected, beaten, or abused by my hand, and I do not feel like contributing to the problem that is adoption. "Not a problem" you say? Go look at the faces of all the older, minority and special needs children that are passed up every day for babies like the one I'd give birth to--white, healthy, newborn--then come back and tell me the same thing.

Well good for you. Want a cookie?

For others it's not NEARLY as simple. Not all those kids in the adoption system are grateful to be alive. They're probably wondering, "Why didn't my parents want me? Why doesn't anyone else want me? Why am I so unloved?"

Not all, granted. But I can't do that to one of them. I can't give up whatever kid I ever have for adoption. I can, if my parents try to stop me from finding a clinic, take other alternatives. But if push comes to shove and I do birth--I am loath to think of what would happen to that child.

That life would not be a blessing--it would be a curse--not to mention several years in prison for me, if our "child-happy" culture didn't kill me first. I'm not risking it.

As I said above, it's not ALL "let's value our lives, YAY!"

You want to cut down on abortions? Here are some solutions YOU can take:

--Promote research for removing fetii from the womb while keeping them alive; research surrogate wombs, ect.
--Make birth control easier to access
--Cut funding for abstinence-only education. Give kids comprehensive info on BC in case they DO decide to become sexually active.
--MAKE IT EASIER FOR CF PEOPLE TO GET TUBALS EARLIER IN LIFE. Seriously--you tell a CFer s/he's a murderer yet when s/he tries to prevent conception in the first place you make it hell on Earth for her? Our logic, let us show you it.

You want less abortions? Take some fucking initiative.

...What the hobgoblin crap are you blathering about now? What does this have to do with abortion?

For me it's not an ISSUE of poverty. It's an issue of "there's a little spawn using my body when I don't want it to and godDAMNit, it WILL NOT STAY THERE."

No, it's a crapload of money that I'd rather spend on more worthwhile things for 18 years, it's abuse, neglect and emotional anguish, it's possible suicide and depression--and maybe jail time--for me.

I don't need that. And if that means being defined as a murderer--well, that's a small price to pay for what I would have to tolerate otherwise.


...I COULD make a snarky comment about your grammar. But it's irrelevant.

Your issues are not, as I can see, with abortion. At least not directly. It's with the environment and abuse from higher authority.

Focus on THOSE. Focus on what is the REAL ISSUE for you.