Alright so here's the facts of the story.

There are roughly 20 million illegal immigrants in the entire United States.
There are roughly 500,000 illegal immigrants in Arizona.

There is a lot of illegal drug, weapon and human trafficking over the US-Mexico border entering into Arizona.

The new law allows Police Officers to request proof of legal citizenship.

The issue that this brings up is Racial Profiling.

Originally Posted by Google

a form of racism consisting of the (alleged) policy of policemen who stop and search vehicles driven by persons belonging to particular rac[e].

However there is another law that states that police cannot pull people over or aside without legitimate suspicion that does not include race.

Also, these cases need to stand up in court, so the police officer has to back up his "reasoning" for asking for proof to begin with.

So here are the prompts:

Is the law allowing police officers to ask for information proving that people are not breaking a law a violation of civil rights?

Will this law create a huge problem of racial profiling with the existing laws in place?

Will this law effectively treat the problems of the drug, weapon, and human trafficking?

Please don't answer one question without the other two. Let's not exclude anything :)

I was just watching the Nightly News on this issue. And I think that it's going to cause a huge issue for everyone in Arizona. The police are going to consistently be racial profiling people. And it's just wrong to point at someone and ask if they have a card stating that they are a legal citizen. I think instead of this, there should be more border control to stop immigrants coming in our country in the first place. I mean, if they want to become citizens, that's one thing. But if they are just going to run and hide here, then no. The courts are going to have to think of a way to make things seem fair. Though in my opinion, border control should be increased to stop illegal immigrants and drug trafficking.

And I think that it's going to cause a huge issue for everyone in Arizona. The police are going to consistently be racial profiling people.

Well, first I'd like to point at that the majority of the population in Arizona are hispanics who are legal citizens. Also, I did post in the first post that the Police Officers by law, cannot do any racial profiling & it would not stand up in court if they did.

I think instead of this, there should be more border control to stop immigrants coming in our country in the first place.

There is a lot of border control, but what is there to be done about the half a million people who are already in Arizona illegally?

And it's just wrong to point at someone and ask if they have a card stating that they are a legal citizen.

I did hear one commentator say that the way this law would be used pretty much solely in this way: if a police officer happens to pull a van over for speeding, and notices there seem to be a lot of people in the car or in the back of a truck, then he can request proof of legal citizenship because the van packed with people is suspicious. Not because the guy is Hispanic. Also, this law would include any illegal immigrant from anywhere residing in Arizona, not just illegal Mexicans.

Originally Posted by Hayzel

Is the law allowing police officers to ask for information proving that people are not breaking a law a violation of civil rights?

Most states (or cities) already require citizens to provide identification when stopped by an officer. I've only heard of a few states (NY being one of them) that don't have this requirement, but I could be wrong. In any case, identification would be one of the few things I'd actually disclose to someone with a badge (and not without asking for a badge number first).

Originally Posted by Hayzel

Will this law create a huge problem of racial profiling with the existing laws in place?

In certain areas, I'm sure it exacerbate racial profiling, but to suggest that it would create the problem is a little naive in my opinion. If it's going to be used to racially profile people, then there's already a problem with racial profiling, and it concerns the people writing and enforcing the law, not the law itself.

Originally Posted by Hayzel

Will this law effectively treat the problems of the drug, weapon, and human trafficking?

No. Illegal immigration is not the reason we have drugs. Drug users, dealers, and manufacturers are the reasons we have drugs. If people in this country didn't buy drugs, we wouldn't be importing them.

If you want to combat illegal immigration, then you fix the immigration laws. If you want to combat drug trafficking, fix the drug trafficking laws. To say that they both go hand-in-hand is a dangerous assumption, especially for immigrants who are completely uninvolved in drugs and are trying to leave a country with rampant poverty and violence so they have a better place to raise and care for their families.

Human trafficking, on the other hand, is also not a consequence of illegal immigration. It's a problem with people who treat humans as resources instead of people. Slavery is present in every single country on the globe, legally or illegally (except in Antarctica, where there are no people, Iceland, and Greenland). Source. In the U.S. much human trafficking is in the form of child slavery. Here's an example. As you can see, many of them come over legally, and then stay illegally against their own will.

As for weapons trafficking, I'm not really sure how to even approach this problem. The United States has some of the most lax gun control laws in the industrialized world--we only have restrictions on automatic and some military-grade weapons, and we barely have a system through which we can prevent the sale of weapons to those convicted of gun-related crimes (restrictions which have a huge gun show loophole). We also have very few restrictions on ammunition.

Well, first I'd like to point at that the majority of the population in Arizona are hispanics who are legal citizens. Also, I did post in the first post that the Police Officers by law, cannot do any racial profiling & it would not stand up in court if they did.

There is a lot of border control, but what is there to be done about the half a million people who are already in Arizona illegally?

Well, since that is so - the police should go around asking everyone whether they are a legal citizen or not. It's not considered racial profiling if they are asking everyone for their legal identification. Though I know that police were going out around where I live (or at least I think it was out here in Nevada) looking for illegal immigrants. And they found a lot of them working at fast food places. Those illegals then got deported. So if the police were to do something like that, but for the whole area of Arizona. Then we could get all the illegals back to where they are supposed to be. And since there are probably a lot working at places such as fast food places, we can have a lot more jobs available.

I did hear one commentator say that the way this law would be used pretty much solely in this way: if a police officer happens to pull a van over for speeding, and notices there seem to be a lot of people in the car or in the back of a truck, then he can request proof of legal citizenship because the van packed with people is suspicious. Not because the guy is Hispanic. Also, this law would include any illegal immigrant from anywhere residing in Arizona, not just illegal Mexicans.

Well then that police officer has the right to search the car if they suspect that there are a lot of illegal immigrants in the back of the truck. It's just probably cause, and then they have the right to search. Just like if a police officer expects that you have drugs in your car. But if someone is just driving with a car filled with people, and the police officer cannot tell if they are illegals or not, then they shouldn't be able to just pull you over for that reason alone.

Well, since that is so - the police should go around asking everyone whether they are a legal citizen or not. It's not considered racial profiling if they are asking everyone for their legal identification. Though I know that police were going out around where I live (or at least I think it was out here in Nevada) looking for illegal immigrants. And they found a lot of them working at fast food places. Those illegals then got deported. So if the police were to do something like that, but for the whole area of Arizona. Then we could get all the illegals back to where they are supposed to be. And since there are probably a lot working at places such as fast food places, we can have a lot more jobs available.

However this would take a lot of time, resources and money. Also, as soon as the illegals found out what was going on they'd probably high tail it to another, "safer" area. Also, deporting them "all at once could pose a challenge as it is not free to do so.

Well then that police officer has the right to search the car if they suspect that there are a lot of illegal immigrants in the back of the truck. It's just probably cause, and then they have the right to search. Just like if a police officer expects that you have drugs in your car. But if someone is just driving with a car filled with people, and the police officer cannot tell if they are illegals or not, then they shouldn't be able to just pull you over for that reason alone.

If you have a van packed full of people, then what can it hurt to simply verify with an officer of the law that you're legal citizens? Illegal immigrants are hurting the country because most don't pay taxes, they take jobs and they send the money back to their families so their families can come across the border illegally as well. They get free education and healthcare, driver's license and everything and they don't pay taxes for this stuff like legal citizen do. It would not bother me if I had a van full of people and a police officer pulled me over to simply verify we were legal. However, the law does not allow them to do this yet. They are allowed to ask for verification of citizenship, after someone has been stopped for other reasons, but they cannot stop someone based on this. Before, they were not allowed to ask anyone ever if they were illegal citizens.

Originally Posted by Hayzel

Is the law allowing police officers to ask for information proving that people are not breaking a law a violation of civil rights?

Since you put it that way, yes, it is. It is assuming them guilty and asking them to prove their innocence. That is not the way it is supposed to work.

But aside from that, it's going to create a very big problem of innocent people being deported. This is very similar to how, back in the days of slavery, free African Americans would have to carry around a card saying they were actually free and not runaway slaves, and present it if asked. This sounds like an okay system (if we ignore the whole slavery thing), except that often, police officers would destroy the card, claim the person was not really free, and arrest them. I cannot see the same thing not happening in Arizona. A large percentage of the country already believes that immigrants, legal or not, do not belong here, and often, neither do their descendants. It is a mentality that we've had to fight against for a very long time, and we've been unsuccessful more often than not. How long do you think it will take for a cop to decide that, even though this person is here legally, they shouldn't be here, and have them deported anyway? Or, perhaps more innocently, someone loses their papers and is deported by mistake? Arizona's very favourite sheriff, Joe Arpaio, has already gotten in trouble for doing (or having done) this exact thing. This law is just giving them even more power to abuse.

There's also the somewhat less serious issue of cops using it as an excuse to search your car or interrogate you if they suspect you of something they can't legally stop you for, much like they do with seatbelts and have already started doing with texting. Since you can't prove they didn't suspect you of being an illegal immigrant, they now have free reign to search and interrogate whomever they want for whatever reason they want. Might as well get rid of those laws entirely. This brings up another issue, though one I touched on in the previous paragraph -- it is illegal for law enforcement to stop and harass someone because of their race, gender, or religion. For Hispanics, this law essentially throws out the race part of that protection. If I were Hispanic and living in Arizona, I'd seriously consider moving out of the state or, depending on how the federal government handles this, out of the country entirely.

Will this law create a huge problem of racial profiling with the existing laws in place?

As Keyori said, it's not creating anything. But it is, in effect, making it legal. The governor can claim that racial profiling will not happen, but she's either a liar or the most naive person I've ever seen. Really, how do you determine who to 'card', so to speak, and who not to? I'll tell you how we do it now -- race. It is entirely based on race. People, be they police or your average civilian, assume that illegal immigrants are strictly Hispanic. If they are black, white, purple, whatever, no matter what language they speak, no matter what they're doing, few Americans even consider the possibility that they're here illegally and instead assume that either they're legal, or they're tourists. But if they are Hispanic, that is the first thing that pops into their heads. You cannot tell me that the police in Arizona, who already are, if not outright bigots, at least already biased against Hispanics, will not base their "random" paper checks (much like the "random" searches in airports) on race. Granted, it's not entirely their fault -- there's really no way of determining whether someone's legal or illegal without checking, and since they can't ask every single person they see to show them their papers, there's really no way to enforce this law.

Will this law effectively treat the problems of the drug, weapon, and human trafficking?

Absolutely not. As (again :P) Keyori said, these are problems that exist separately from illegal immigration. Even if you completely eliminated illegal immigration, you'd still have these problems. Actually, if anything, you'd make them worse. The vast majority of illegal immigrants are, aside from the obvious, completely innocent and only wanting to support their families, but if you managed to make it nigh-impossible for illegal immigrants to come into the country and stay for any length of time, the only ones who would be able to get through would be the ones with the right connections -- the smugglers. And even they would have a tough time of it. This wouldn't stop it, but it would decrease the supply, while the demand would continue to increase. Decreased supply and increased demand means increased price, and, because people would be willing to do much more in order to take advantage of the opportunity to make so much money, increased violence associated with the trafficking of drugs, illegal arms, and people. And again, because Arizona is only really concerned about what's coming through the southern border, attention would be taken away from countries where the worst trafficking, that of humans, is the most prevalent.

But aside from that, it's going to create a very big problem of innocent people being deported.

How exactly does that work? All you need is a birth certificate to prove your a citizen... If someone lost their birth certificate they can pretty much call the state that they were born in and get a new one. Not difficult.

The governor can claim that racial profiling will not happen, but she's either a liar or the most naive person I've ever seen.

Even if someone was found to be illegal through racial profiling, they wouldn't able to be deported because it was illegally found that they were illegal. It wouldn't hold up in court so there is no point in actually racially profiling someone. Also, I think it was a little nasty to attack someone personally for a law that we haven't observed in effect yet.

Absolutely not. As (again ) Keyori said, these are problems that exist separately from illegal immigration.

They do exist separately however the exist together as well. While not all drug, human and weapons trafficking are done by illegal immigrants, border control will tell you that a lot of what they see are illegal immigrants attempting to traffic humans, drugs and weapons. These markets make big bucks. According to Arizona state officials, if there is a large amount of drugs found somewhere in the city, it's almost always from Mexico and the people busted with it are illegal immigrants.

...It's amazing to me that you had the balls to post right after me and snip every paragraph down to one sentence. I'd applaud you, if it weren't so obnoxious.

Originally Posted by Hayzel

How exactly does that work? All you need is a birth certificate to prove your a citizen... If someone lost their birth certificate they can pretty much call the state that they were born in and get a new one. Not difficult.

...That does not in any way prove you're an American citizen. Those who became citizens later in life would not be helped by a birth certificate. And yes, it can be very difficult. I've had to get a new birth certificate before, and it took nearly a year and a lot of running around. Thank the gods I didn't have to move during that time, or I likely never would have gotten it. And I can't even imagine what those who were adopted might have to go through.

Even if someone was found to be illegal through racial profiling, they wouldn't able to be deported because it was illegally found that they were illegal. It wouldn't hold up in court so there is no point in actually racially profiling someone.

Just like arrests made based on racial profiling don't hold up in court, right? It's true that racial profiling is illegal, but it's only newly illegal and almost impossible to prove, so victims of it usually don't even bring it up.

Also, I think it was a little nasty to attack someone personally for a law that we haven't observed in effect yet.

Too bad. She's claiming that it won't be based on race when not only will be, but already has been -- Arizona's track record when it comes to dealing with its Hispanic population is less than great. If she doesn't have to bother with human rights, I sure as hell don't have to play nice with her.

They do exist separately however the exist together as well. While not all drug, human and weapons trafficking are done by illegal immigrants, border control will tell you that a lot of what they see are illegal immigrants attempting to traffic humans, drugs and weapons. These markets make big bucks. According to Arizona state officials, if there is a large amount of drugs found somewhere in the city, it's almost always from Mexico and the people busted with it are illegal immigrants.

Really? Then find me a source telling me such. And by the way, both border patrol and law enforcement are extremely biased sources. In the same way that you don't trust cops when it comes to drug prices, you don't trust a group to tell you how big a problem is when they get way more funding and support and attention the bigger the problem is. And yes, I realize that some illegal immigrants are involved in smuggling. I said as much in the section of my post you deleted. But most are not, and most of the ones who are are small fries, pawns. They are usually either very poor and need the money, or have had their families threatened (this has become a more common occurrence as of late) and were pressured into getting involved in smuggling. The suppliers and buyers are, more often than not, legal citizens of whichever side of the border they're on, and can easily find new ways of getting business done. They, the actual source of the problem, will never be touched, so trafficking will never be affected.

And again, a lot of the problem comes from countries other than Mexico. Since they'll only be affecting illegal immigration from Mexico, they're only even addressing maybe 5% of the trafficking issue. So even if they eliminated 100% of the trafficking coming from or going to Mexico, they've barely put a dent in the problem. But then, that doesn't matter to them, because the real motivation has nothing whatsoever to do with actually lowering crime rates.

...It's amazing to me that you had the balls to post right after me and snip every paragraph down to one sentence. I'd applaud you, if it weren't so obnoxious.

It's amazing you insult me even though I agree with you on most of this subject, isn't it?

...That does not in any way prove you're an American citizen. Those who became citizens later in life would not be helped by a birth certificate. And yes, it can be very difficult. I've had to get a new birth certificate before, and it took nearly a year and a lot of running around. Thank the gods I didn't have to move during that time, or I likely never would have gotten it. And I can't even imagine what those who were adopted might have to go through.

I called the state I was born in, told them my name and birth date, a week later I was holding a birth certificate. XD

Just like arrests made based on racial profiling don't hold up in court, right? It's true that racial profiling is illegal, but it's only newly illegal and almost impossible to prove, so victims of it usually don't even bring it up.

Like any attorney wouldn't go down that road. It wouldn't surprise me if every attorney did go down that road. People sue people and use their race to try and win cases all the time. Would you mind citing how you know this?

Really? Then find me a source telling me such. And by the way, both border patrol and law enforcement are extremely biased sources. In the same way that you don't trust cops when it comes to drug prices, you don't trust a group to tell you how big a problem is when they get way more funding and support and attention the bigger the problem is.

Oh yes, you can't trust them because their the ones out there getting shot at after they try to arrest someone who has a shitload of drugs.

Drugs

Federal investigators believe that as much as 2.2 million kilograms of cocaine and 11.6 kilograms of marijuana were smuggled into the United States via the Mexican border in 2005.1 With the decline of the Medellin and Cali cartels of Columbia, two Mexican drug cartels – the Sinaloa cartel and the Gulf cartel – are battling over the billion-dollar drug trade between Mexico and the United States. These cartels also have ties to U.S. gangs that serve as distribution networks in the interior United States. A 2006 study by the House Committee on Homeland Security warns that the Mexican cartels have essentially wrested control of the border from both the U.S. and Mexican governments...

Source

Your turn to cite some sources!

And yes, I realize that some illegal immigrants are involved in smuggling. I said as much in the section of my post you deleted. But most are not, and most of the ones who are are small fries, pawns. They are usually either very poor and need the money, or have had their families threatened (this has become a more common occurrence as of late) and were pressured into getting involved in smuggling. The suppliers and buyers are, more often than not, legal citizens of whichever side of the border they're on, and can easily find new ways of getting business done. They, the actual source of the problem, will never be touched, so trafficking will never be affected.

Well seeing as 4.84 million pounds of cocaine and 25.52 million pounds of Marijuana are being brought into the U.S. in one year alone, they must have been working pretty hard with a lot of people. That doesn't even count other drugs that get shipped to Mexico to be brought into the US.

And again, a lot of the problem comes from countries other than Mexico. Since they'll only be affecting illegal immigration from Mexico, they're only even addressing maybe 5% of the trafficking issue. So even if they eliminated 100% of the trafficking coming from or going to Mexico, they've barely put a dent in the problem. But then, that doesn't matter to them, because the real motivation has nothing whatsoever to do with actually lowering crime rates.

I would like a source showing that the drugs coming from Mexico is 5% of the problem.
I would like a source showing that the real motivation has nothing to do with lowering crime rates.

Thank you! :)

Something has be done and this seems as good as anything.

I definitely illegal immigration is a huge problem, I mean its a crime. Especially if people are receiving benefits and aid without paying taxes, but I think it should be reformed, not in the way the new bill handles things.

Since you put it that way, yes, it is. It is assuming them guilty and asking them to prove their innocence. That is not the way it is supposed to work.

Oh then I suppose it should be illegal for the Police Officer to ask for your registration and proof of insurance because they're assuming you guilty and asking you to prove your innocence. If it's a requirement that you be a citizen or have legal citizenship it shouldn't matter if a Police Officer asks for proof of citizenship. Just like insurance is something you're required to have, legal rights to be in the country is a requirement of the law as well.

I guess we should just ban the law about asking for insurance because Police Officers might be singling out poor people who can't pay for insurance. If your in the country without citizenship or some other legal means then your breaking the law. If you drive without insurance then your breaking the law. If your legal it shouldn't matter because even if you don't have proof on you, it's not difficult to obtain.

Hayzel, if you are being asked for proof of insurance, it means you were pulled over with just cause for committing a moving violation. An officer would not be pulling over someone because he thought they might be poor, that doesn't even make any sense.

I live in Arizona, I have watched as a racist sheriff has vilified innocent people who are LEGAL citizens because they have brown skin, now he has been given even more ammunition to harass the innocent.
When do you think it's okay for them to ask for these papers?
I don't see them asking German immigrants or British immigrants or any other white immigrants for their papers, this is blatant racial profiling.
You as a white person don't have to be harassed so why should they?

It was my understanding of the new Arizona laws that it makes it "a state crime to be in the United States illegally" (quote cbc.ca).
It was also my understanding that under this new law, police will be required to question anyone who looks like an immigrant. I don't see how that can't increase racial profiling. And like Aoi Midori pointed out, that's only going to affect hispanics, because an illegal German immigrant looks like another white citizen, but a hispanic is hispanic.

As to drug and weapon trafficking, this won't do anything to stop them, since it's immigration, not drugs and weapons. And I don't see how it could help against human trafficking. I mean, they don't just drive around in a car with a bunch of recently brought in 'slaves'. That's not quite how it works.
To me this law is just "anti-immigrant hysteria."

Hayzel, if you are being asked for proof of insurance, it means you were pulled over with just cause for committing a moving violation. An officer would not be pulling over someone because he thought they might be poor, that doesn't even make any sense.

Just like it doesn't make sense that a police officer would pull some over because of the color of their skin.

Hayzel, if you are being asked for proof of insurance, it means you were pulled over with just cause for committing a moving violation.

However insurance has little to do with running a red light because insurance is for when you get in accidents. The reason police officers ask for proof of insurance is because they are ensuring you have insurance because it is illegal to not have it.

I live in Arizona, I have watched as a racist sheriff has vilified innocent people who are LEGAL citizens because they have brown skin, now he has been given even more ammunition to harass the innocent.

One Sheriff does not represent an entire police force. Also, it's my understanding that some police officers before were allowed to request proof of citizenship when there was question, but the law just allows state officers to do that now as well.

When do you think it's okay for them to ask for these papers?

At any time. We are required to be legal citizens, so there's no harm in having papers to show that we are.

I don't see them asking German immigrants or British immigrants or any other white immigrants for their papers, this is blatant racial profiling.

Part of the key here is they're fighting illegal immigration. It's easier for a Mexican to illegally immigrate to Arizona than for someone who was British or German. No doubt it happens, but the number of Mexicans coming over the border illegally is pretty big. half a million are in your state alone, probably more. And the only thing that would make it racial profiling is if Police officers were pulling people over specifically because of their race, no matter what race it happens to be. This, does not hold up in court, so there is no motivation for police officers to be racial profiling. Other evidence is necessary. If it turns out that more Mexicans are being caught for illegal immigration than any other race, it's because there are more illegal Mexicans in America. Yes, some people are still racist jerks, but there aren't that many of them around anymore.

You as a white person don't have to be harassed so why should they?

Who says I've never been harassed because of my race? I don't think being called a Racist Nazi because my ancestors enslaved African Americans is particularly nice. In fact, I would call that harassment. Also, the police officers are going to be asking based on evidence other than race, so race won't even come in as a factor except that most illegal immigrants are in fact Mexican.

And like Aoi Midori pointed out, that's only going to affect hispanics, because an illegal German immigrant looks like another white citizen, but a hispanic is hispanic.

Okay say a police officer does racial profiling to find illegal immigrants. Then what? When the court asks for his reasoning, he'll have none and there will be a mistrial because no attorney is going to allow racial profiling. How many illegal German immigrants are in the united states compared to the millions of illegal mexicans?

As to drug and weapon trafficking, this won't do anything to stop them, since it's immigration, not drugs and weapons.

A crackdown on illegal immigration, especially in Pheonix, will pull the illegal immigrants out of the city and help break up the drug and weapons trafficking circles. Stuff may still come in, but there won't be as many people to receive it and it may be caught earlier.

And I don't see how it could help against human trafficking. I mean, they don't just drive around in a car with a bunch of recently brought in 'slaves'. That's not quite how it works.

Human trafficking for one, does not necessarily mean slaves. It also means families paying a couple of guys to get them over the border. And if they are coming from the border, then those families will still be packed in the back seat.

To me this law is just "anti-immigrant hysteria."

Show some evidence.

First of all, I'm not quite sure what point you're arguing here Hayzel:

Okay say a police officer does racial profiling to find illegal immigrants. Then what? When the court asks for his reasoning, he'll have none and there will be a mistrial because no attorney is going to allow racial profiling. How many illegal German immigrants are in the united states compared to the millions of illegal mexicans?

Are you saying that the law is ineffective because you can't be racist? Are you saying the law should be there because of the illegal mexicans?

As to drug trafficking, there will always be drugs, and a lot of drugs. Look at the northern United States. There are drugs there, but I'm fairly sure there isn't a large flow of illegal immigrants in the north, compared to say Arizona. Drugs don't cross the border with mexicans looking for jobs. Drugs come in because of people already in the country needing them.

And human trafficking. When you pay to get over the border, you don't just hop in some dude's car and drive over the border. If you did that now without these laws you would be caught. It's a very secretive process. You hide people. It's called smuggling for a reason. I'm sure there are fake papers in there too.

Show some evidence.

Show me evidence the law will not violate human rights and effectively reduce illegal immigration.

The million-dollar question is this: what, exactly, constitutes reasonable suspicion of illegal residency? In effect: what does a suspected illegal alien look like?

You can say "Okay guyz, no racial profiling," all you want, but until you can find a workable definition of "reasonable suspicion" for illegality that does not operate based on an individual's appearance and/or cultural norms that apply to many Hispanics, including those who are in the country legally, racial profiling is exactly what is going to happen.

That's a good summary of how I feel, Doom. You said it way more concisely than I ever did. =3

Originally Posted by Hayzel

At any time. We are required to be legal citizens, so there's no harm in having papers to show that we are.

Just curious, but how many people do you know consciously make sure they have legal documentation with them every single time they walk out of the house? Sure, most people carry a wallet or purse with them, but that doesn't guarantee that they have a license in it. Or, for that matter, that they carry their birth certificates and social security cards with them. The only time I make sure to grab my wallet is when I'm going to be driving or I'm going somewhere where I'll need it. Otherwise, I don't like the bag-age of a purse or wallet, so I leave it at home.

In fact, currently I don't have a Social Security card because it... ah... got thrown in the wash... =coughcough= I'm going through a CRAP load of pain trying to get a new one! It has NOT been fun. Knowing this and thinking I could be in trouble for not having it concerns me.

But I'm more concerned over those individuals that are higher targets for profiling and are LEGAL citizens. I was traveling home via Greyhound when I witnessed a lady harassed by border control. She was an immigrant from Africa (I can't atm recall which country) and she had a rough french-english accent. I had previously been having a conversation with her and she came off to me as a sweet old lady. Yes, she was up there in years. Border patrol came on, and although her accent was heavy, she spoke clearly. She told them she was a legal citizen and that she had moved here in 1960. That didn't stop them from mocking her, twisting her words around, escorting her off the bus, DUMPING everything in her luggage out in front where everyone on the bus could clearly see, stuffing it back in her bag haphazardly and embarrassing her in front of the entire bus by coming back on board the bus and shouting: "She's legal."

The lady then had to come back on board, thoroughly humiliated. This one was recent, but only one case of racial profiling I have witnessed. I can't seem to forget the sight of these three massive men huddling around this one, little old lady and harassing her. All this, because she was traveling from one city to another city within the same state and didn't bring her social security card with her to prove her citizenship.

And not every U.S. citizens has or needs a drivers license.

Before you know it, every single American citizen will be forced to carry papers to PROVE that they are a legal citizen. I can name a few choice places where that's been done, and we don't like it. Also, I don't buy that U.S. citizens will be too okay with this. It'll have them living in fear of forgetting their I.D.s just to walk to the corner store. Next thing you know, state border control. I.D.s, please.

Hello, Big Brother.

Originally Posted by Hayzel

Yes, some people are still racist jerks, but there aren't that many of them around anymore.

I totally disagree with this. I've moved around the U.S. and have seen plenty of different walks of life and people and I have witnessed first hand MANY accounts of racism, both to friends, acquaintances, strangers, and my own family. My family were called Nazis simply because we have a German last name... nothing doing that our Great Grandfather came from Austria to America and fought FOR the U.S. during WWII. I heared African American, Asians and Mexicans trashed in conversation more times than I can count. Quite frankly, it disgusts me. While I believe we've made a great headway in changing those sentiments, they still exist and will for awhile yet, not matter how much I wish it otherwise.

Point being, we can't stick out heads in the veritable sand and think it's not going to happen, because it is and it does. The current laws in Arizona have indeed opened the pathways for racial profiling, and even if a case isn't brought to trial, it will not stop individuals from harassing innocent people. (Afterall, how ARE the police going to decide who's an illegal and who isn't, without first profiling then asking for ID?) There are plenty of forms of harassment that are difficult to even get justice for. And loads of people are scared of the police.

What gets forgotten is that, though we train our police force, they are human individuals with their own beliefs and preferences. It's what makes us human. And yet, care should be taken in what unmitigated rights and responsibilities we bestow on our police force. The new Arizona law is too much power in the hands of people that can dish it out on the streets unsupervised.

To ignore all the possible factors and seriously negative outcomes this law might have and push it through legislations shows a depth of ignorance and selfishness.

Originally Posted by Hayzel

Human trafficking for one, does not necessarily mean slaves. It also means families paying a couple of guys to get them over the border. And if they are coming from the border, then those families will still be packed in the back seat.

The way you put this one seems to throw me. Usually, the term Human trafficking refers to the act of moving an individual or multiple individuals from one place to another for the purpose of exploiting them. Just the act of someone "paying for a ride" isn't enough. They're separate issues. Both happen, are illegal, and are to be concerned about, but again, just paying someone to get you over the border is usually referred to as "smuggling" to keep it separate from the acts of using a person for sexual slavery, forced labor, and the like. Human trafficking comes in from every angle and not just the U.S.-Mexican border. I admit I could be completely wrong about this, but this is my understanding.



Lol, okay, I think I've said my peace for now. As for my views, I'm against this new law in Arizona, but I am not against sending individual's who are in the U.S. illegally back to their respective nations/countries. I believe if you want to be a U.S. citizen, start by following the blasted laws! (This does not include those seeking asylum, of which, technically, they are protected by those laws.) I'm also seriously for a revamp of current immigration laws.