To open this up, I am currently getting my license to be a bartender. While in class we were having a discussion on how it's not illegal to serve a woman drinks while she is pregnant, nor is it illegal for her to have said drinks. Then someone from the back of the class brought up something interesting.

She stated that a friend of hers from Russia says that in her country, it is ADVISED to have a drink a day. (If you are from Russia, please confirm or deny, for I am quite curious) Another friend of mine stated that in a recent survay, they say it's okay for a woman to have a glass of wine or whatnot once a week while pregnant, that it wont do any damage.

I know they say a glass of red wine a night helps with the heart, but I am not sure in these cases.

I, for one, would not be drinking anything while pregnant, but I am also an overly-cautious individual. I know that drinking too much will have detrimental side effects on the child, both mental and physical, but I honestly have no idea about minimum drinking.

If "they", as in those taking the survey, stated that having a drink a day wouldn't hurt your child, would you? Would you take the chance, knowing that surveys and such are found to be false, or true, everyday?

Also, do you think it should be illegal for someone to sell a drink to someone who is OBVIOUSLY pregnant. (I say this because there are those out there, and stages during the pregnancy, in which it is visibly unknown) Or because that would cause chaos to the bar itself (asking each woman if she's pregnant, and knowing there are those who lie) should it be illegal to purchase or drink while pregnant?

I think it should be Illegal to serve and be served if you know they or yourself is pregnant. My argument is that it can cause harm or even death to the unborn fetus. now I will never call it a baby because a baby is a living thing and the fetus is not yet born so it is not yet "living" so I am about to cause an argument with myself here. Hurting a living thing is 100% illegal. You are not allowed to do it. It is animal cruelty and tree huggers will hunt you down if you hurt even the grass. ( minus things like cattle which are used for food. But you are hurting the potential of a living being. You are causing a life where said fetus will have to pay for your screw ups. I don't see how this is fair or right or morally ethical.

i know you can deny a person drinks for any reason and I for one would deny a drink to anyone who is pregnant. Also as far as the one drink a week thing... I know there were studies that have shown just one drink can cause Fetal Alcohol Syndrome so I for one question that. If I knew my wife, girl friend, or just a friend was pregnant I wouldn't allow her to drink anything. I'm a fairly relaxed person, But even I draw the line somewhere.

I don't think it in any way should be illegal for a woman to drink while she's pregnant!

I'm not sure about the facts, I've heard that it's supposed to be bad, but I've also heard that it's ok to do it. To me that sounds like it's not sure. The only thing I know is that one should definetly not take drugs while being pregnant.
Making it illegal for women who are pregnant to drink alcohol would be to legally incompetent her, saying that women that are pregnant are to stupid to make such a decition themselves.

Personally I don't drink at all, it's a decition that I have made personally and then I wouldn't drink if I was pregnant either. But I don't think it's right to make it illegal to drink for one group of people (minors excluded) before it's illegal for everyone. And by the way it would be kind of hard to prove that a woman is pregnant, it's not everyone that are very visibly pregnant. It's not like they could force a woman to take a pregnancy test at the bar before she orders! xD

Some women look like they're pregnant and they're not. There would really be no way to enforce that law. I think that women should never drink, smoke, or do drugs when carrying a fetus. I do think there should be some kind of law that protects the unborn child though but chances are if the mom is that reckless she does not care if the baby lives or dies.

I don't think it should be illegal persay. Just, use better judgment when serving drinks, and women that know their pregnant (since there are many who are and don't know it), should use better judgment and not drink.

I don't know about this study saying it's okay, but I do know a lot of people that are affected by Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. So based on the knowledge I have at this moment, I'd say highly unadvised for pregnant, or women that could possibly be pregnant to drink.

The reason why I say not to make it illegal, is because it makes me think that, the person behind the idea of this law, has a sever lack of faith in the female sex and their ability to make positive decisions.

OK, first off I have to state that I live in the state with the highest rate of fetal alcohol syndrome in the United States and have lived and worked with the children who have to suffer from this illness because their mother's couldn't be bothered to limit their alcohol use for 9 freaking months.

I feel that bartenders/liquor stores etc should have the moral (and legal) standing to refuse alcohol to women who are pregnant. I don't know if women should be fined or prosecuted for drinking while pregnant (AKA making it illegal) but there should still be some precedent out there to keep these women from getting their drink on. Personally I don't care if they drink themselves to death but the fetus doesn't have a say in the whole debacle and is the one who has to suffer the consequences for another person's stupid actions.

I'll give my opinion on this, even though I feel there should be a clear distinction between a pregnant woman having a drink, and getting drunk.
But I feel it's a shame that the pregnant human womb doesn't miscarry if the owner of it gets drunk, though if that did happen you can bet your life that the women who get drunk despite being pregnant would use it as a cheap means of abortion. But at least that would end a lot of the nasty problems that happen to these children, and in all honesty, someone that gets drunk while pregnant doesn't deserve to bring a child into the world because they're too selfish and irresponsible.

Originally Posted by Aspinou

I don't think it in any way should be illegal for a woman to drink while she's pregnant!

I'm not sure about the facts, I've heard that it's supposed to be bad, but I've also heard that it's ok to do it. To me that sounds like it's not sure. The only thing I know is that one should definetly not take drugs while being pregnant.
Making it illegal for women who are pregnant to drink alcohol would be to legally incompetent her, saying that women that are pregnant are to stupid to make such a decition themselves.

Personally I don't drink at all, it's a decition that I have made personally and then I wouldn't drink if I was pregnant either. But I don't think it's right to make it illegal to drink for one group of people (minors excluded) before it's illegal for everyone. And by the way it would be kind of hard to prove that a woman is pregnant, it's not everyone that are very visibly pregnant. It's not like they could force a woman to take a pregnancy test at the bar before she orders! xD

Just to let you know. Alcohol is a drug.

Originally Posted by Murphy McManus

Just to let you know. Alcohol is a drug.

I meant illegal drugs sorry that I wasn't specific enough.

I believe it is a personal choice to drink if you're pregnant. If you want just a glass of wine, or a couple of beers it up to you. You may not be making the best choice, but it is still a persons choice to make. The fetus is not a person, and such should not have any rights.

I'm with Jelly on this. Having a drink is different from getting drunk. I would fare to say that one drink a day will not affect a fetus nearly as greatly or detrimentally as getting drunk every day (or even once a week).

Originally Posted by x_cannibalisticcows

I believe it is a personal choice to drink if you're pregnant. If you want just a glass of wine, or a couple of beers it up to you. You may not be making the best choice, but it is still a persons choice to make. The fetus is not a person, and such should not have any rights.

But that foetus is going to become a person, and is going to be affected by too much alcohol consumption during pregnancy, and is going to be that mother's responsibility to deal with.

It's in a person's best interests to not do things that are going to adversely affect the baby, surely? Regardless of whether you personally believe that a bunch of developing cells has no rights. I've seen teenage girls who are at least 6 months pregnant, out on a Fridday night and falling down drunk, what they're carrying isn't a foetus, it's another human that they are doing physical damage to by getting so drunk. And are probably then going to expect their own mothers to look after >_>

Originally Posted by jellysundae

But that foetus is going to become a person, and is going to be affected by too much alcohol consumption during pregnancy, and is going to be that mother's responsibility to deal with.

It's in a person's best interests to not do things that are going to adversely affect the baby, surely? Regardless of whether you personally believe that a bunch of developing cells has no rights. I've seen teenage girls who are at least 6 months pregnant, out on a Fridday night and falling down drunk, what they're carrying isn't a foetus, it's another human that they are doing physical damage to by getting so drunk. And are probably then going to expect their own mothers to look after >_>

Yeah, you may have seen it, but just because a stereotypical pregnant teen may do such and such isn't reason to give the fetus any rights over her.
It is a persons choice to make, and it is also their choice to take responsibility or not. I'm not saying it's a good choice, but it is still their choice to smoke, drink, and do to their bodies as they please - even while pregnant. Besides, it's not like we're hurtin' to repopulate or anything.

Not to mention this might cause a shit fit with all the feminist [maybe, unless they're /still/ going to prohibition, lol] I can also see it justifying abortions that much more.

May I remind everyone that the same rules that apply to abortion apply to a woman's womb in general? That it could possibly turn into a person someday does not matter anymore than it would in the case of abortion; you do not have a right to tell a woman what she can and cannot do with her body for the sake of the potential eventual personhood of another being. Yeah, it's advisable that a pregnant woman not do things that have a great chance of harming the fetus if she intends to carry it to term, but it's also advisable that people with bad genes not have children because their children are likely to inherit those genes. I know I'd rather my mother have had a drink every now and then while she was pregnant with me than have passed on a long family history of cancer and heart disease. Shall we practice eugenics, for the sake of the children?

We (well, people; I've consciously tried to stop myself from doing it) view women as the guardians of reproduction and children, solely responsible for it all. That's the only reason people are so comfortable telling them what they can and cannot do in regards to reproductive health. There are things men do that affect their sperm and thus their reproductive health, but I've never heard anyone try to tell them they can't do them. So, as was demonstrated by my genes example, it's not really about the potential issues the future children might have, it's about what we're comfortable with, what boundaries of personal rights (such as the right to one's body) we feel are acceptable to violate. We want to control what other people do, especially where reproduction and child-raising are concerned, so any chance we get to do so, we take.

In concerning the sperm for males, and what they do to effect them, I havn't heard too much in the way of such a concern. Only because as stated, it's usually the females being pointed out to do this and that. Most of the responsibility is placed on the female. Out of curiousity though, are there significant things that can be done to sperm that could wound the child later in life, that have nothing to do with the females lifestyle or reproductive organs? I've just never come across it.

Cliff note I'm surprised people are still here. xD

Of course making such a thing illegal would have huge implications. As people have stated about abortion (which is a whole 'nother issue, dear lord) and the responsibilities, but taking away rights from females. I do find it strange that there are laws in this world that stop your freedom of choice, in order to protect you, while others are frowned down upon. Forcing you to wear your seat belt (which I only just found out there is a special seat belt FOR pregnant ladies! Wow~~~ Technology) while in the front seat. It won't help the other driver you hit, but it will protect YOU, and YOU better have that on. (I am not saying I'm for or against seat belts, that will be a later post, just pointing out an example) However there are others that will take away personal rights, such as abortion and drinking that is fine.

Fascinating.

I tried to pull up some links, but sadly (though not surprisingly), pretty much all of them were detailing sperm count (which as far as I know only affects virility) and erectile dysfunction. Sigh. Well, anyway, yes, there are some things that men do that make their sperm less healthy, which can cause the fetus to be less healthy. Smoking is one of the big ones, but excessive alcohol and caffeine consumption, use of marijuana and cocaine, and exposure to certain chemicals and medications (I'm looking at you, Cialis; you can't tell me men can take a pill and be just fine and yet if a woman even touches it, it can cause fetal deformations if she ever becomes pregnant) have been linked to sperm abnormalities. One of the bigger concerns as of late has been chemicals that mimic estrogen, which have been found in drinking water and are present in many products, albeit ones you shouldn't be sticking in your mouth anyway (sunscreen is the one that immediately comes to mind, but there are many others). More obvious concerns are behaviours that risk...ahem, injury to related areas. Basically, anything that can make sperm less healthy or alter the DNA contained in sperm while not making the male infertile has the potential to cause complications.

I'm not a big fan of the laws you're talking about, make no mistake. I don't think anyone should be forced to do or not do something that does not physically affect anyone but herself, be it wearing a seatbelt or a helmet or whatever.

The information about abnormalities in sperm is fascinating. I knew alcohol and drug usage effected how things work in that area but was unaware of what else could cause it!

After thinking about this for a while, I finally put my finger on why the whole thing bothers me. It's not mothers drinking, it's not the affects on the fetus (even though I still think it sucks that a kid has to deal with the actions of the parent) it's the fact that in several cases if a bartender refuses to serve a woman because of a pregnancy that bartender can be fired. Which seems a bit silly to me because in any bar I've ever been in there is a large sign that says "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone". So what makes pregnant women immune to this rule?

Because it is sexual discrimination in the way that, say, refusing to allow maternity leave is. The same thing would happen if they refused to serve a person due to their race or ability level. They may be allowed to do it, but it is an employer's prerogative to fire employees who exhibit behaviour that is likely to chase off customers.

There should be no law against drinking while pregnant as an unborn child has no legal standing. However, if a woman bears a child who has prenatal alcohol syndrome, she should be given an operation to make her infertile. The baby is now a human, the woman caused it to have a horrible, 100% avoidable condition. She should not be permitted to do the same thing to more children.

That's pretty extreme. I'm an extreme person.

do you think it should be illegal for someone to sell a drink to someone who is OBVIOUSLY pregnant. (I say this because there are those out there, and stages during the pregnancy, in which it is visibly unknown) Or because that would cause chaos to the bar itself (asking each woman if she's pregnant, and knowing there are those who lie) should it be illegal to purchase or drink while pregnant?

Like many things, any unnatural chemicals being taken in the bottom can damage the child. Cigarettes, Coffee, Alcohol (and a few other things I have forgotten at the moment). I feel it should be illegal for a pregnant woman to consume these things while she is pregnant, since it's illegal to hit a pregnant woman.

It causes damage to the child and definitely isn't right if it can be helped. Things that are unavoidable, I couldn't say should be illegal or the mother's fault if it harms her child, but drinking, and smoking aren't "unavoidable" and if you don't care that much to just not do it for the safety of the child, I'm worried about the mother having a child to begin with.

Originally Posted by RainbowRhino

There should be no law against drinking while pregnant as an unborn child has no legal standing. However, if a woman bears a child who has prenatal alcohol syndrome, she should be given an operation to make her infertile. The baby is now a human, the woman caused it to have a horrible, 100% avoidable condition. She should not be permitted to do the same thing to more children.

That's pretty extreme. I'm an extreme person.

Extreme, yes. Also doesn't make sense. It's like procrastination.
"Well I don't care about her bring pregnant now, she can drink all she wants. We'll just wait until later to do something about it." If you want to avoid the child being harmed from the alcohol, deal with it at the source instead of just waiting until it's born to see the effects.

Originally Posted by ll P W E E P ll

Extreme, yes. Also doesn't make sense. It's like procrastination.
"Well I don't care about her bring pregnant now, she can drink all she wants. We'll just wait until later to do something about it." If you want to avoid the child being harmed from the alcohol, deal with it at the source instead of just waiting until it's born to see the effects.

The problem with this is that you can't constantly monitor a woman going through a pregnancy to make sure that she's doing everything in her power to keep the child healthy. Simply having a drink here and there is not necessarily going to do harm, and there are quite a few other complications that would come along with not wanting to allow pregnant women to drink legally. It simply can't be done in a fair and effective manner. The only way anything could be done is after the fact, and I'm not so sure that even that would be plausible, realistically and/or ethically.

Originally Posted by RainbowRhino

However, if a woman bears a child who has prenatal alcohol syndrome, she should be given an operation to make her infertile.

Too bad that women are protected from such an extreme punishment by that pesky Eighth Amendment.

Originally Posted by Eight Amendment

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

(relevant section emphasized by me)

I think it is extremely disrespectful of a pregnant mother to excessively drink alcohol. Just because the child has not been born yet and is not considered a citizen with rights, that doesn't mean women should have the right to possibly limit another human's abilities or endanger their life just to satisfy themselves. Sadly, the human race is a selfish one and there's nothing we can do about it.

Originally Posted by Manders

I think it is extremely disrespectful of a pregnant mother to excessively drink alcohol. Just because the child has not been born yet and is not considered a citizen with rights, that doesn't mean women should have the right to possibly limit another human's abilities or endanger their life just to satisfy themselves. Sadly, the human race is a selfish one and there's nothing we can do about it.

You're assuming that an unborn child is concidered a human.
And if that is disrespectful, I guess you think that a woman deciding not to have children is disrespectful to her possible future children too?

I think in that case we might just make it illegal to do anything in any matter selfdestructive. I mean it's obviously too dangerous to drink and to smoke and eat fat food, masturbating. We should probably ban driving too.
I mean for the sake of all those possible babies out there. I wonder how many possible babies a man kills every time he drinks a beer?

No seriously women are not breeding machines...