So, today, I got into a very odd debate with a fellow student at my college. We had been discussing many world issues this morning, and somehow the theory of male infertility being caused by the hormones from birth control pills made it into the conversation.

The other person in the conversation was utterly shocked to learn this and he suddenly jumped on a strange idea: make birth control pills illegal and take them all away from women. I was dumbfounded when he said this. I quickly tried to explain to him how that wouldn't work- take a woman's right to have birth control pills away and she will become VERY angry. He then argued: have women use more condoms, problem solved. I tried to also explain that birth control pills help with other things, not just preventing pregnancy. No matter HOW HARD I TRIED he could not see the flaws in what he was saying. He said that women who got angry with not having birth control pills would need to deal with just using condoms. Well, this discussion went on for quite a while, and he finally ended with saying "You're probably addicted to the pill anyways. The pills are probably addicting and that's why women would get so upset over loosing them."

...That was the final straw for me (apparently for him, too, as he stood up and walked way). I could not believe that a friendly discussion and debate got twisted to someone angrily accusing me of an addiction to a drug I personally have never used in my life. :lol:

So, menewshans, ever been in a debate with someone who, no matter how hard you tried, couldn't see the flaws in the what they were saying?

Final Note: Now, last I heard this was still a theory, not yet proven but considered a highly likely cause for infertility in men. If anyone has anymore information about this, Clair would be interested in reading up about it further. :)

Originally Posted by Clair Voyant

So, today, I got into a very odd debate with a fellow student at my college. We had been discussing many world issues this morning, and somehow the theory of male infertility being caused by the hormones from birth control pills made it into the conversation.

The other person in the conversation was utterly shocked to learn this and he suddenly jumped on a strange idea: make birth control pills illegal and take them all away from women. I was dumbfounded when he said this. I quickly tried to explain to him how that wouldn't work- take a woman's right to have birth control pills away and she will become VERY angry. He then argued: have women use more condoms, problem solved. I tried to also explain that birth control pills help with other things, not just preventing pregnancy. No matter HOW HARD I TRIED he could not see the flaws in what he was saying. He said that women who got angry with not having birth control pills would need to deal with just using condoms. Well, this discussion went on for quite a while, and he finally ended with saying "You're probably addicted to the pill anyways. The pills are probably addicting and that's why women would get so upset over loosing them."

...That was the final straw for me (apparently for him, too, as he stood up and walked way). I could not believe that a friendly discussion and debate got twisted to someone angrily accusing me of an addiction to a drug I personally have never used in my life. :lol:

So, menewshans, ever been in a debate with someone who, no matter how hard you tried, couldn't see the flaws in the what they were saying?

Final Note: Now, last I heard this was still a theory, not yet proven but considered a highly likely cause for infertility in men. If anyone has anymore information about this, Clair would be interested in reading up about it further. :)

Oh dear, so many! I sympathize with you so badly, this always happens to me on our debate team. There is this one really hard-headed girl who refuses to acknowledge your arguments, no matter how valid, and simply ploughs ahead with her train of thought. You want to get her to see the other side of the issue, but she just flat out refuses, and then attacks your own arguments! Makes me feel stupid, but I have satisfaction in knowing she appears stupid also :L
Ooh and yesterday I had a mini-fight with my best friend because he refused to believe that the word "wormed" is a verb. I was in stitches.

Ugh... this happens ALL the time in my Contemporary Moral Problems class. Philosophy is some heavy stuff, and unfortunately, unlike your argument (where I think your side clearly stands as 'correct'), there's no right answer.

I hate people like that.
They make me angry. If there is a flaw in my argument, point it out and I will either a) revise or b) drop it because it was wrong.
And then I always: Get the fuck over it.

But people who never are willing to listen to anyone else's ideas, even when their ideas are flawed, ect...Make me pissed off.

Birth Control pills have many uses--without them I wouldn't be able to function for 1 week a month...which would mean I wouldn't be able to keep a job. :| Because who is going to hire someone where every 3 weeks, they need to take the 4th week off? (Yes, my period is that bad, and lasts 4-7 days. It's so painful I can't move, and NOTHING helps...'cept the pill.)

I'm the same way, monstahh... hot flashes and cramp pain so bad that I literally black out for several minutes at a time. Birth control keeps me sane, and I'm not even sexually active yet.

...Also, why would male fertility be an issue if a woman WAS on birth control to prevent pregnancy? What, does your friend plan on having sex with a lot of one-night-stand women while he tries to get his wife pregnant? I don't understand that logic.

Ive had a 6 hour discussion with a friend(over XBox Live, while playing Call of Duty, not in party chat) about the possibility of expecting the unexpected. Turns out, we are a hated set of people, because we didnt shut up about it. He kept saying that you could. But I kept going back to the root of the querry. If you're expecting the unexpected, then the unexpected is expected, therefore nullifying the unexpected.

Ive also had a nice long week worth of debates that involved things from existance of God, to the theory of time travel, and all the way down to if people are actually there, or if everything is a figment of our imaginations.

The underlined one got people thinking. And before someone says that my theory Im about to put down sounds alot(well, maybe not quite) like how The Matrix world works, my friends and I debated this before that movie came out. My theory is: We only truly know we exist, because we feel pain, and other senses. Sure, we can feel others, but how are you sure that it isnt your imagination making things up, to make it seem like you are actually touching/interacting with someone/something else?

Originally Posted by Avatre

The underlined one got people thinking. And before someone says that my theory Im about to put down sounds alot(well, maybe not quite) like how The Matrix world works, my friends and I debated this before that movie came out. My theory is: We only truly know we exist, because we feel pain, and other senses. Sure, we can feel others, but how are you sure that it isnt your imagination making things up, to make it seem like you are actually touching/interacting with someone/something else?

You, I think, would be very interested in the philosophy of Bishop Berkeley..

The guy's philosophy isn't for me, but it's definitely interesting. He's also the "if a tree falls..." guy.

@ Anaxilea::
I actually heard somewhere ( I believe on a documentary... but I'm not sure) that when a woman is on birth control, a lot of the hormones in the medication aren't used up in the body. (However, this is true with any sort of drug that's taken over a long period of time- be it man or woman taking the drug). When the body disposes of that waste (pee & poop to be blunt), those hormones get flushed back into the water systems... After years and years of women taking birth control, trace amounts of these hormones are found in our drinking water... and some scientists are convinced that that's why male infertility is on the rise.

Now, I can see where this can be a SERIOUS issue, don't get me wrong. But when this was brought up in our conversation, the guy I debated with came up with NO OTHER SOLUTION to said issue of male infertility other than: get rid of birth control pills, make them illegal. Now, I agree that this is a serious problem that should be looked into immediately (and I'm sure there are people working on the issue) BUT my argument wasn't about a solution, merely that his idea of the "perfect solution" was severely flawed and would back fire sooner than a person could blink.

I'm an atheist. Welcome to my world.

Oh Clair, did you try telling your friend that instead of taking away the pills from women, we should just take away sex from men? Silly comebacks, always work. :D

Also, I don't tend to have a lot of discussions like that, I do however have problems debating with my mother, as we're both very set in our ways and she has trouble expressing herself in a non-ambiguous way.

And Avatre, Descartes would be very pleased with you. You share his theory. "I think, therefore I am" and all that. That theory always interested me. Off-topic a bit, but as you well said, that always gets people thinking.

@ NeuzaKC::
No, I did not! But you're not the only person to come up with an epic come back for him that CLAIR DIDN'T USE! :illgetu: Hah, that would have been so funny. Unfortunately, Clair did not come up with any awesome come backs... She needs to compile a list of awesome come backs, though, for future debates. :P

You can add that one to the list, no credit necessary! If your friend pulls that argument again, shove that in and watch him go speechless. :D

Kudos to you for not calling him a moron and then proceeding to shoot apart his "argument" while destroying his self esteem like I would have but then again, stupidity does not sit well with me.

@ KC:: I shall... just watch it be an argument on a completely different topic. That'll totally make him speechless.

I definitely side with your argument. I find myself having the same problem a lot as well as I'm not verbally confident. I am far better at expressing myself over the internet then out loud. Out loud it is very stressful for me, and though I can identify flaws in other people's logic I can't quite defeat their argument in the heat of the moment. Anyone know any resources for constructing solid arguments, debates, communication?

What I dislike is that often, the loudest, most outspoken, appeal to fear, appeal to "insert irrelevance to truth here", and fallacies prevail over logical arguments which simply weren't able to be communicated effectively.