I'm not dreadfully interested in gender. It does not construct a huge facet of my life or identity, but I do understand that it is hugely important for other people... and that is what is curious to me. This thread is therefore not just about alternative gender (cross-gendered, transgendered, no-gender, etc.) but also about your "run of the mill" varieties as well. It is for anyone who does feel their gender constructs some part of their identities... and for those who do not.

To clarify, we are discussing gender rather than sex.

First, here are some seed questions to start the discussion.
Please try to explain your answers rather than answering 'yes' or 'no':

• Do you feel that your identity is connected to your gender?
• Do you feel gender plays a large part in constructing most people's self identities?
• Do you feel that alternative gendered people are more sensitive about gender when it comes to determining their self identity?
• Which comes first: Gender or Identity?
• Does language have a hand in altering gender driven identity? (For instance, in Polish there is a word for 'gender' but no word for 'sex' in the sense of male/female.)
• What does it mean to not have a gender and does having no gender alter or influence self identity?

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Mandatory Warnings:

1. I have absolutely no interest in hearing your sob stories. This is not the thread for that, anyways.
2. People will have questions, but that does not mean they are wholly ignorant. Treat them accordingly.
3. If you have a strong opinion against any group keep it to yourself. No one wants to hear your prejudice.
4. If you can not reply in a manner which is respectful and structured then do not make the attempt.
5. These warnings apply to everyone, you are not magically excluded from them.

• If any of these things offend you do not post to this thread.
• If anything said in this thread offends you, you have the right to POLITELY defend your side of the argument.

I will NOT tolerate squabbling behavior and that goes for either side. Comment in such a manner and you will either be directed here to re-read this policy, ignored, or directed to a picture of someone scowling as you should expect that to be everyone's expression for having to read such a post. No, it isn't nice, but this forum is about elevated discussion, not acting like a child.

Do you feel that your identity is connected to your gender?

Yes.

Do you feel gender plays a large part in constructing most people's self identities?

Yes, of course.

Do you feel that alternative gendered people are more sensitive about gender when it comes to determining their self identity?

Yes...

Which comes first: Gender or Identity?

For me? Gender. I'm a classic hetero. I never had any confusion with my gender. I do believe that to other people it may be different though.

Does language have a hand in altering gender driven identity? (For instance, in Polish there is a word for 'gender' but no word for 'sex' in the sense of male/female.)

I don't think so. What I do believe, is that your culture can influence your gender driven identity.

What does it mean to not have a gender and does having no gender alter or influence self identity?

I don't know, never thought about it. I mean, at all. In my country such things are very, very rare. I never met such a person, personally. So I won't jump into conclusions. I can assume that such people perhaps have a problem with their self confidence inside a romantic relationship..? In way, they don't know what role should they play inside a relationship. To me, it seems kinda weird. I can't even begin to understand how such a person thinks and why... so it's pretty confusing to me.
btw, i'm not talking about lesbians, gays, or a-sexuals. I'm talking about people that don't decide to get into a relationship based on gender.

Gender affects your identity. You may feel like it doesn't, but it does. Take Angelina Jolie who recently had a double mastectomy, loosing both her breasts... as a girl how would you feel if you lost one or both your boobs? How would that affect your femininity or the way you perceived yourself as a woman? The physical lost of a breast does not alter your sex, yet many women feel that the lost of a breast has an impact on their femininity. ((I realise you said no sob stories but the nature of what we are talking about is so deeply personal, I think that its impossible to discuss it clinically without touching some kind of emotive level)) Equally women with poly cystic ovaries sometimes suffer from facial hair, and feel that their femininity has been affected by a physical characteristic which is deemed as male.
Now these are extreme cases, so what about the everyday life? Well think about the stuff you wear, how you do your hair, if you wear make up or not- how does this affect your femininity. Me, personally, cannot leave the house without putting make up on, yet one my good friends has never worn a scrap of make up in her life. Even going against social convention can be making a statement about gender, for example my friend doesn't wear make up because she believes in female natural beauty.
But this isn't a one sided introspective process. Because of our sex, people will make judgements about us based on their own social constructs of gender. Even marketing and businesses will gender products for us to consume. Interestingly the whole Abercrombie and Fitch fiasco in the media demonstrates how businesses can engage in sexist and misogynistic behavior by appealing to an 'ideal' gender construct of the female coveted by the wider fashion industry. How does this ideal of beauty affect your own body image? Eating disorders disproportionately affect women, like domestic violence and poverty. I guess what I'm trying to say is that although gender may feel like a philosophical nebulous concept, it has very real outcomes in society that affects both men and women, to the extent it will affect your own life chances, the way you perceive yourself and how construct your own identity. What's even worse this concept of gender is not your own, it was already determined for you before you were born, and is continually replicated and sold to us by various social institutions :(

Interesting, thank you Mogwai. If you can, will you explain your first few answers a bit more so I can get a better understanding of how your take on gender based identity is developed? Also... it is interesting to me that you're equating sexuality to gender.

Una: I'm not sure if the removal of her breast tissue is an alteration of her gender, though, but rather a traumatic alteration in her body. Certainly women who go through breast cancer treatment which requires the removal of such tissue go through similar anguish, but is that altering their gender identities? If I would believe it would seem to drive these individuals to confirm themselves as being a part of that group. Take a transgendered individual... a male sexed person who associates their personal identity as being of the female gender is in similar anguish but (once out of the closet) identifies as female.

I suppose my focus was more on personal gender identity rather than the social gender identity and how one views that they should appear to society in order to confirm their gender role, but it is equally interesting a topic.

My English sucks, I feel like a 9 year old in the way i'm trying to explain myself, i'll try anyway...

My identity is pretty usual, nothing out of the norm, so to speak. There's nothing much to say about how I think, as it's pretty boring lol. I'm pretty submissive in some ways, that's part of my personality and there's nothing I can do about it. Sure, the place that I grew up in and the culture itself "helped" me to shape me into what I am today. People also judge me based on my appearance, as i'm small in size and I look really young for my age (people still give me 15-16 although I am 23 years old), so sometimes I feel that people often underestimate me or think that i'm too stupid or something so they cannot rely on me (in work for example).
I'm pretty sure that if I was a man people will less underestimate me. Or if my features as a woman were more "threatening" people might listen to me more.
I know that part of it is my own fault, I do have self confidence issues, and I don't radiate confidence almost at all, so naturally, people will respond to that and act accordingly. What i'm trying to say is, I believe that the way my personality is shaped was because my surroundings expected me to behave in a certain way and that's what happened. But it's not the only reason. It kinda feels "natural" to me. I like feeling feminine and all that. I like feeling pretty, I like it that i'm small in size, I do need to work on my confidence issues but other than that, i'm pretty ok with the way I am. It is very annoying that people judge me before they know me, but who doesn't? So I prove them wrong, if they deserve to get to know me.

As for your second question...why shouldn't I equate between sexuality and gender? They kinda come hand in hand, for me, at least. I do understand that there are people that feel that they are "stuck" inside a body that they feel that cannot identify with. So they feel different than I do. But I don't feel that way..

Originally Posted by Mythos

Interesting, thank you Mogwai. If you can, will you explain your first few answers a bit more so I can get a better understanding of how your take on gender based identity is developed? Also... it is interesting to me that you're equating sexuality to gender.

Una: I'm not sure if the removal of her breast tissue is an alteration of her gender, though, but rather a traumatic alteration in her body. Certainly women who go through breast cancer treatment which requires the removal of such tissue go through similar anguish, but is that altering their gender identities? If I would believe it would seem to drive these individuals to confirm themselves as being a part of that group. Take a transgendered individual... a male sexed person who associates their personal identity as being of the female gender is in similar anguish but (once out of the closet) identifies as female.

I suppose my focus was more on personal gender identity rather than the social gender identity and how one views that they should appear to society in order to confirm their gender role, but it is equally interesting a topic.

Loosing a breast, is not the same as loosing a leg. Breasts are feminine, women get them surgically enlarged, or wear padded bras, chicken fillets, socks, tissue to make them look bigger. Wearing low cut tops, and clothes to create a feminine silhouette that emphasizes the boobies is a gendered thing and considered socially attractive. Women who have breast surgery often have negative psychological side effects because they feel that there operation has altered their feminine form. There is a tremendous amount of research on women who have had breast surgery and the psychological impact it has had on their feminine identity, for example X.

Gender is a social construct, so your transsexual will claim that he feels like a woman because he identifies with characteristics, behavior, and appearances which is classified by society as feminine. Sometimes engaging in this behavior is not enough and they will have plastic surgery to alter their bodies to resemble a woman's body to complete the feeling of femininity.

Personal gender identity and social gender identity, is just a tautology. Gender identity is an arena where society and the individual meet. Your personal conceptualization of identity is shaped by the social construction of your gender by society. How you choose to conform or deviate will effect you as an individual and a social being.

Mogwai:
You're much, much more eloquent than many people I've met in university, don't worry!
It's unfortunate that people judge you so quickly over size or timid nature. It is good to see you are happy with who you are and have the self awareness to know that all you need is some more confidence to be much more comfortable (and it's definitely something which can be improved! Just keep working on it! :D )

My question about your association between sexuality and gender is mostly to do with same sex couples- not all of them have a more masculine or more feminine member. It also causes me to wonder about how bisexuality works in that system. I do not mean to offend, please don't take it that way, but I'm curious about your thoughts. : )


Una:
I'm not certain if I'm communicating my thoughts correctly. This field has always given me trouble with wording. Like I mentioned I do not associate myself strongly as being female (perhaps this is why speaking on this subject causes me so many problems) but I know that I am one and have no qualms with the fact... Therefore my gender is still female but my identity is separated from it. I might be alone on this, but to me the feminine things you've listed (concern for the perfect figure, make up, dressing up, etc.) on the same level as eating a nice dinner with the correct fork. They are things that you make sure of when society requires it, but when you're at home and hungry you are free to eat with whatever you'd like. The classic story is of a tomboy who is frustrated when her social gender role as a female does not fit with her personal preference to do masculine things. Clearly this not a person who identifies their sense of self strongly with their gender, though she is not necessarily in disagreement with it.

You mentioned that you cannot leave the house without make up on- I've barely got a grasp on the differences between foundation and concealer. It isn't that I scorn the use of make up but it is too far outside of the things that I feel 'I do' and whether that makes me a 'bad woman' or not doesn't really weigh in on my mind. But beyond this I know that when I go out to a formal occasion I ought to put stuff on my face and so I do... albeit, I suppose, with more instruction than someone my age really ought to need!

So as far as I define it, personal gender identity differs from social gender identity in that it is how the individual identifies themselves and to what degree rather than cold measurements you have previously described as

Originally Posted by una

already determined for you before you were born, and is continually replicated and sold to us by various social institutions :(

To take it a little further... it is the difference in spirituality and religion where spirituality is one person and their personal beliefs and religion is a community and a specific belief.

Hmm.. I trying to understand where are you trying to get at, so I also read your reply to una; Because I seriously do not understand what is so interesting about my opinion, as it's normal and there's nothing unusual about it, and i'm sure you already knew my answer before you even read it.

You never mentioned you feel attracted to another woman, so what bothers you is that you have to wear make up because society makes you do it, and at home you don't? What's so strange about that? I'm just the same. I don't like make up, mainly because my skin is sensitive to it, but I still wear it sometimes when I go outside. Actually, I think most women will feel the same as us, unless make up is a hobby of theirs, and they love to put make up even at home.

Your identity derives from the way you think - the way you think derives from your gender. This is the usual cases of most people, except lesbians, transgenders, etc. That's why homosexuality sometimes comes from some kind of mental illness, a traumatic event that perhaps triggered your brain in a way that changed your sexual preferences.

And about couples with the same sex - Again, I cannot speak their minds, but I think there's always are more feminine side in the relationship, and a more masculine one? I'm not so sure, but even in documentaries I saw couples with the same sex and there's always the one who is more "sensitive" than the other.

Look, if you feel that you're more masculine in your behavior than feminine, then perhaps you just need to find a rather sensitive man, because opposites attract and it's true in many cases (: Not always the man is the one who has the "pants" in the family. In most cases, , both the man and the woman are controlling the house together. If i'm better with money than my husband, then I will handle the money; If my husband cleans better than I do, he will clean it. Today it's much more versatile than 100 years ago, when there were strict rules for a man and for a woman.

I'm sure you know that already, anyway, i'm curious to know what are you trying to get at?

Gender is something that is socialised into us the moment we are born, we internalise it and normalise to the point that we don’t notice it ourselves, unless we purposefully deviate or conform to a particular extreme i.e Paris Hilton vs Chaz Bono. I understand what you are communicating, and I think that probably because you don’t fall into an extreme you perceive that your gender has very little to do with your own identity- but it does. Gender incorporates a wide spectrum of behaviours, most of which you are aware of and have an opinion of. We all conform and deviate away from these behaviours to certain degrees, i.e with make-up I conform to an extreme, whereas you choose only to wear make up only on special occasions. This doesn’t mean that your identity is less gendered then mine, because we are both taught the same thing i.e. make up is feminine and we should wear make-up when we want to look nice. What we diverge on in terms of our own identity is how much we decide to conform or deviate away from this gender expectation.
It’s complex and one of the reasons I used the Angelina Jolie example was to help you conceptualise what it might be like to have your femininity compromised. Yet you seem eager to create this dissonance between yourself and gender, so I think whatever example I give like, body hair, you would give a meh kind of reply. However I doubt in real life that you are some kind of androgynous being that wears a dress on a Tuesday and a tux on Wednesday. The reason why I say this is because although you are keen to establish this divide between the ‘social’ and the ‘personal’ gender identity, in actuality there is none. Gender is the social, identity is the personal, and it is all about how we perceive ourselves and how others perceive us, symbolic-internationalism calls it the ‘me’ and the ‘I’. So for example if we take you and your relationship with makeup, the ‘I’ which is your personal self, does not care about make-up, but the ‘me’, the social projection of yourself, knows that you should wear make-up because it is something which according to gender expectations makes you look nice. So you mediate between the ‘I’ and the ‘me’, and decide to wear make on special occasions. How many other mediations between the ‘I’ and the ‘me’ have you made aside from make-up on special occasions?
Gender is an intrinsic part of everyone’s identity because society forces us to deal with the prescribed set of ascetics and behaviour associated with our gender. We choose how much we conform or deviate and carry on with our lives, living by rules like I only wear make up on special occasions.

Originally Posted by Mythos

• Do you feel that your identity is connected to your gender?
• Do you feel gender plays a large part in constructing most people's self identities?
• Do you feel that alternative gendered people are more sensitive about gender when it comes to determining their self identity?
• Which comes first: Gender or Identity?
• Does language have a hand in altering gender driven identity? (For instance, in Polish there is a word for 'gender' but no word for 'sex' in the sense of male/female.)
• What does it mean to not have a gender and does having no gender alter or influence self identity?

Someones identity is a make-up of that person. Everyone's identity, I believe, is connected to their gender, regardless of what a persons gender is, or how much they identify with it. Gender, in the sense that it is just the traits a person possesses divided into different categories to be labeled as either 'masculine' and 'feminine'. [Which is so narrow, and why there are so many more gender identities out there to combat this narrow-minded view.]

I, myself, am physically a woman - I hold a number of traits that are viewed as either feminine or masculine. And though I know sex and gender are separate, my projected gender identity stems from my sex because I think the notion of gender is a little ridiculous, as far as labeling things as masculine or feminine - when really, any trait can be applied to any person. So though I call myself a girl, an possess many 'feminine traits' - Internally I don't associate my preferences with any gender, or my sex.

Going from my view of gender above - in the context of your self identity being constructed in a large part by your gender... In the sense of what gender actually is, than yes... In the sense that it's constructed by the label of gender...Well, that really depends on the person.

For those whose gender deviates from the norm, I would say they are more sensitive about gender as it is constantly combated by society, their family, their friends. For those people, I think it take a lot more work than for someone who has a regular gender. [Normal and regular in the sense of majority.]

I think at this point - you can guess my answer to this one. Identity comes first, and gender is assigned according to the traits you possess. [Though, traditionally it is expected that your gender match your sex - and your systematically trained from childhood to have your gender match your sex.]

I think language does play a part, I can't speak on how large or little a part - but it has been proven to influence the way you think and see the world.

And....last but not least... I can sum this up in one sentence. Having no gender means not prescribing yourself to the labels of the socially constructed ideals of either sex. :)

Originally Posted by Mogwai

That's why homosexuality sometimes comes from some kind of mental illness, a traumatic event that perhaps triggered your brain in a way that changed your sexual preferences.

I would also like to point out that this is a MYTH. It has no scientific evidence to back it up. I don't want to address the other stereotypes presented, because it will get too far off topic, and probably heated on my part - but this one I couldn't leave alone.

Can you back it up?

Originally Posted by Mogwai

Can you back it up?

Yup.

"Homosexuality in and of itself is unrelated to psychological disturbance or maladjustment. Homosexuals as a group are not more psychologically disturbed on account of their homosexuality"

Gonsiorek, J.C. (1991). The empirical basis for the demise of the illness model of homosexuality. In J. Gonsiorek & J. Weinrich (Eds.), Homosexuality: Research implications for public policy (pp. 115-136). Thousand Oaks, CA: Sage.

Is Homosexuality A Mental Disorder?
No. All major professional mental health organizations have gone on record to affirm that homosexuality is not a mental disorder. In 1973 the American Psychiatric Association’s Board of Trustees removed homosexuality from its official diagnostic manual, The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Second Edition (DSM II). The action was taken following a review of the scientific literature and consultation with experts in the field. The experts found that homosexuality does not meet the criteria to be considered a mental illness.

American Pshycological Association

One of the hypotheses regularly tested is that of whether sexual abuse itself can be the cause of homosexuality in adult life. The results of this research is inconclusive since some research finds a direct correlation between child abuse and homosexuality (Macmillan, 1997; Tomeo et al, 2001; Holmes et al, 1998; Doll et al, 1992; Soukup, 1995; Shrier et al, 1988; Dickson; Finkelhor, 1984), whereas other research expressly denies any correlational link (Ridley, 2003; Balsam et al 2005; Bell et al, 1981; Hammersmith, 1982; Peters & Cantrall, 1991; Slap, 1998). Clearly, the jury is still out!

I'd give this a read - Here

I read some of what you'd shown me, and I researched a bit myself, and you're right. But, there is not evidence to claim as a fact that homosexuality is biological; all they know is that it is not considered as mental illness and that it's not genetic.
But, I do think that the environment can effect your sexual orientation, depends if you're biologically capable of i.

It's all in the head, in the end. For example, someone considers himself gay, he came out and all that, but he can still get aroused form girls and can still have sex with girls. But he's still gay, he prefers boys over girls. How is that possible?

It only strengthens my assumption that your sexual preference is in your head. It's not that you're "born" into being gay because it's not possible. They're not born differently physically, humans are not like amphibians that can change their own sex naturally. It is some kind of combination with a biological defect and your environment (for example, your parent's attitude towards certain sexual orientation may delay or entirely effect you sexual orientation).

Perhaps i'm mistaken, but I think women are more "free" to define themselves as bi/gay than men, because it is more acceptable in culture. Women are more free to experiment; also, women have this tendency to attach emotion to the things they're sexually attracted to. So, if you're a woman and you really love your friend as a friend, you might sometimes feel attracted to her sexually even though you're not gay.

This experience may confuse her and make her believe that perhaps she's bi, even though it's not the case. This is more about what i'm talking about, anyway.

Do you feel that your identity is connected to your gender?

I'm not sure how you mean "Identity" as opposed to "Gender", unless Identity means the biological sex... Either way I do not think they have to be fixed, but unless someone tells me otherwise, I will assume a person is what they appear to be by default.
For myself, I am going through the period where I am unable to transition, but have my sights set on doing so in the future when I can afford it.

Do you feel gender plays a large part in constructing most people's self identities?

Not unless it's part of their job. Gender-specific roles, mostly. If a person wants to remain ambiguous or do what is against the norm, I say let them be so as long as it's not physically harming anyone.

Do you feel that alternative gendered people are more sensitive about gender when it comes to determining their self identity?

Definitely. They are much more easily offended in general, though the same can apply to those who are strongly opposed to it, as well.
It's understandable for people who have gone through hard times dealing with their own identity to be more sensitive about it.

Which comes first: Gender or Identity?

The gender the person wishes to identify as comes first. If the person wants it strongly enough, there are ways to change themselves physically, and fairly safely, as long as they live in a fairly liberal country which legalizes sex change.

Does language have a hand in altering gender driven identity? (For instance, in Polish there is a word for 'gender' but no word for 'sex' in the sense of male/female.)

I think so. I have heard of a certain Pacific island whose culture consists of 5 specifically different genders. Some people recognize 3 genders, and some might even believe in infinite or undefined genders.

What does it mean to not have a gender and does having no gender alter or influence self identity?

If a person either does not have secondary sex characteristics, lacks a sexuality/sexual desire, or simply does not wish to identify with any gender, they could be considered genderless.
I believe it's great if people can be able to not judge each other based on their gender/sex/identity.

For me, all of this gender/sexuality stuff is not genetic. I have previously been extremely ignorant about gender/sex/orientation as a kid, firmly believing I'd grow up to be a completely normal straight person.
It wasn't until I started exploring these things that I realized I didn't identify with the norm, or that they even existed.

A person's sense of identity as a whole is in large part a social construct. We define ourselves within the confines of the culture we belong to. Identifying with a gender is like identifying with a religion or any other group. I personally consider myself agendered because I don't feel that my identity is linked with any gender, but gender is traditionally very important in society, so it is easy to see why many people do feel it is part of their identity. We all identify with some groups. It's really the basis of how people define themselves: "I'm this or that type of person." But we don't have to identify with every kind of group; just like you don't have to align with a religion, you also don't have to align with a gender. Other people have a hard time understanding that though, in my experience.

Sexuality is very similar to gender, I would think. Your gender identity is the group(s) or lack thereof that you associate yourself with and sexuality is the group(s) or lack thereof that you are attracted to. Since I don't let gender affect who I am as a person, I also don't let it impose any limits on who I might become attracted to, so I consider myself pansexual.

Do you feel that your identity is connected to your gender?

No... because while I may be of one gender, I tend to be mistaken for the complete opposite gender online very often.

Do you feel gender plays a large part in constructing most people's self identities?

Most people yes... everyone? no

Do you feel that alternative gendered people are more sensitive about gender when it comes to determining their self identity?

I would believe so, because if they do not wish to be identified a certain way they will dislike being referred to in that way.

Which comes first: Gender or Identity?

Not sure what this means... but a baby is born male or female with little to no identity... so gender?

Does language have a hand in altering gender driven identity? (For instance, in Polish there is a word for 'gender' but no word for 'sex' in the sense of male/female.)

Aren't they the same thing?

What does it mean to not have a gender and does having no gender alter or influence self identity?

Having no gender means they do not really connect with or identify as either gender.

Really in the end though the world isn't just a box of A and B pieces. The world is an entire spectrum of "I'm more female than male" or "I'm all male" and sometimes even "I'm neither" that there are infinite possibilities to that answer.

(Terribly sorry that I haven't replied here yet. I've been working on my dissertation and my brain just isn't processing at the level I'd like it to for this thread. Thank you for your input so far!)

Gender plays a big part in identity. That second chromosome may affect one's initial disposition and affinity for a certain gender role, although I do think that the individual has a choice over how much they want to let their sex affect their identity, because of that, I see gender identity as being a nature vs. nurture sort of deal.

Does language have a hand in altering gender driven identity? (For instance, in Polish there is a word for 'gender' but no word for 'sex' in the sense of male/female.)

Definitely. Language plays a huge part in the way people think about things. I think the way people use gender and sex interchangeably has had a large effect on how some people find it difficult accept the concept of people who are of one sex but identify as a non-matching gender.

I tend to believe gender identity is shaped more by nurture than nature. If a female child is raised as a boy, I would think that he would continue to identify as a boy even after realizing that he is female. Of course, she also might grow to hate the gender she was raised as and revert to the gender associated with her biological sex, like many transgendered people do except in the reverse. Nature must play some role though. I'm very interested to know how much biology actually affects gender identity. We can't perform experiments like this though because there might be negative effects to such children socially and thus psychologically.

I dunno... I feel far more comfortable using a female character in games and I was raised as a boy... lets me be myself without being judged.

It's my belief that gender is, or rather should be (since we still live in a society that arbitrarily raises and treats people differently based on what parts they had between their legs at birth and we can't put all the responsibility on those individuals to overcome it) a non-factor in how someone behaves and what they like - and for that reason it is, in fact, a part of identity and ONLY a part of identity. How important a part it is varies from person to person, but that's all it really is and all it will ever be.

I, for instance, am a cisgender man who likes princesses and makeup and sports long hair and occasionally crossplays and even wears partial skirts just because I like how they look on me. This doesn't make me a trans woman, genderqueer, or confused. It just means I reject the societal expectations of me based on what I was born with between my legs and do what I actually LIKE instead. Which is something everyone should realize they have the option to do.

* Meanwhile, my boyfriend is a trans man, we cry over Disney movies together, he loves fashion, he still wears shirts and boots from the women's section just because as poor quality as they may be there's at least more variety in appearances for under $500 per garment, loves gardening and especially growing flowers, and he plans on joining me with the crossplays after his top surgery. So what makes him a man? It's not his short hair or love of sports and cars and motorcycles - it's the fact that that is what he feels like he is, and no one is in a better position to know than he is.

I for one think it's entirely ridiculous how much of our society is built around creating a masculine/feminine false dichotomy. The only things that are naturally more common in men than women are penises. Everything else with a correlation is because of how society sells it. Children don't start acting in "gendered" ways until...right around the time they become aware of the gender assigned to them. In fact, has anyone here heard of the Baby X project?

If not, here's what it is. They took a group of adult volunteers and split them up and showed them a video of a baby reacting to a Jack-in-the-box. They told half of the volunteers that it was a little girl and the other half that it was a little boy, and told them to describe what they thought the baby was feeling. The half who were told the baby was a girl were convinced "she" was scared - and the half that thought the baby was a boy thought "he" was angry. They were all watching the same video clip.

It's just one of many things that shows that most of our common ideas about gender - even if not gender itself - are social constructs...that are pretty wrong.

It's because of things like this that I tend to use "they" as the pronoun for anyone until they tell me they prefer something else just because, even though it's linguistically a little confusing, it's easier to clarify a statement than it is to take back one that hurts someone. Also it reminds me that assuming things about people is a bad idea.

In the end, all that really matters about any given person is what they consider themselves to be. No matter how many degrees we have, we'll never know more about a person than they themselves do.

@Vox: There have been studies about that actually - and it turns out many people who have their sex reassigned when they're too young to remember (usually due to botched circumcisions or birth defects involving the genitalia - not necessarily counting intersex conditions) do, in fact, end up identifying as what they were born as rather than what they were raised as. Although it's a pretty small sample, there is a pattern of correlation.

Which raises very interesting questions about trans* people. Is there a discrepancy in some people's genetic code that makes one's body develop in a different way from their mind? We've recently determined that there is no physical difference between the "male" and "female" brain structure, so what is it?

Until we figure it out, I tie it in to spirituality - most people are born into a body that fits their soul, but some people are in such a hurry to be born or something like that that they end up with a not-so-great fit. But I would really like to find out, if this is true, how it manifests in biology (because everything manifests SOMEWHERE in biology), or if it's not, what the biological cause is - if we find the biological cues then we can help people get proper treatment before they go through puberty in the wrong direction, which would be awesome.

* Regarding this paragraph: I talk about him here because he has given me explicit permission to do so any time one of these debates comes up. Don't do that with someone you know unless they've done the same.

I love those tests about what gender a baby is by gender...
I always angered a lot of people by calling a baby an "it"

I always use "they" or "it" for babies. Always. I don't even care how gendered their parents are raising them. I don't care what they tell me to call them. Monty Python had this figured out better than most people for a comedy sketch and that's sad.

Cloud and I are going to raise any kids we may have or adopt with the encouragement to find and be themselves. They'll have unisex names and our blessing if they ever decide to change them. Their room will be painted by us having a paint fight against white walls. They will get a little bit of everything from every category of things and be allowed to choose their own favorites. They'll be allowed to take the lead in the toy store and the only limits we'll place are on price.

The only activity they'll be required to do outside of school is learn at least one martial art of their choice so they can kick the ass of anyone who tries to tell them this is wrong. Okay, maybe not actually be so aggressive - but really we want them to be able to protect themselves against the jerkwads in the world who don't want anyone to exist outside of their narrow-minded view of things.

A paint fight to paint a room? That is bloody genius!

Well there's a lot of martial art types that are designed for self defense rather than dealing damage ^^

We're probably going to do the same thing with our game room, only with a specific color scheme, once we get our own house. We like giving rooms a unique kind of feeling...and any excuse to have a paint fight is a good one.

We're really hoping the kids pick one of those types. But even if they don't we're going to actually be PARENTS and teach them that hurting people for fun is not okay.

Even if they're boys *GASP*.

"Boys will be boys" is absolutely no excuse for the things we let kids get away with (as long as they're born with penises).