Since my debate partners were upset about the Wicca debate ending, I though I might make a similar thread and see if it goes anywhere. Sorry if I seem like I'm picking on Christians (see other Christian based debate thread), but they're easily accesible and such.

Anywho, I have some figures for you to start this off with! According to Wikipedia, aproximately 76% of Americans claim some form of Christianity as their religion. A pie chart I found on ReligiousTolerance.org claims that aproximately 33% of the world populate claims Christianity as their religion.

Okay, fine. Dandy.

So if so many people are Christians, and Christianity is a faith based on the love of the people around you and the worship of a sometime omnibenevolent father god, why is it that there is such strife in the world?

What makes a Christian a Christian? Do you get to go to heaven just because you're "saved" or you get baptised? Is there some kind of free pass you can aquire that makes it okay for you to act like an ass as long as you're in a church pew on Sunday? Or is there more to this whole deal? One would think that one should actually act like a Christian in order to be Christian, so does that mean that those who do not act Christ-like are, in fact, not considerable as Christian, despite claiming to be?

And, yes, I am well aware that not all Christians suck, but I gotta tell you, enough of them do to the point that this topic is actually a valid one. I'm not trying to offend anyone, though, so try not to be, 'kay?

(On a side note, I have discovered that that same phenomenon that occurs when you say something over and over and over again also occurs when you type something over and over again, 'cause the word "Christian" has started to look really odd. o_O)

RAWR. Troll, troll, troll and troll some more. Nag, yell, bitch, bitch ,bitch. I'm right, you're wrong. There's your debate. XD

Kidding. Anyways. ReligiousTolerance.org is a great site.

Problem is, the bible contradicts itself so much, we can't really be surprised that many of the people who follow it are hypocrites as well. Jesus said that one should try and convert a village, but if one cannot succeed, move on. Either way, it shouldn't matter. Shouldn't matter if we're going to hell or not. Christians aren't supposed to judge, yet I've seen so many try and force things onto people. I mean, if you want to talk to someone about the bible, ok, everyone can learn something new, it's not going to hurt. You have no right though to decide that they're going to hell.

As to the "get out of jail free card" as you kind of put it. There actually used to be. I am not fucking with you. I can't remember when, but when the church was still extremely corrupt (they've gotten better the last couple hundred years)they would sell these little papers that were basically a get into heaven free card. It was to raise money for the church. They did some crazy things way back in the day.

I personally don't think anyone has the right to judge another person based on their religion. I think you should be judged on who you are as a person. I realize that religion tends to influence that a great deal, but just because someone is Christian doesn't make them a good person. On the other hand, I know plenty of pagans who are amazing people who are constantly giving back to the people. So, while many Christians are going around, shoving their beliefs in other peoples faces and so worried about that pagan who isn't going to go to heaven and they're busy calling that pagan bad names and whatnot...That pagan is helping out in soup kitchens, donating to charity, etc, etc. This is just an example. I mean, people just need to stop worry about other people beliefs and start worrying about their own lives. The world be a much better place if we did I think.

Shalandriel, you're referring to the Medieval > Renaissance times when people would collect sums of money in which you're able to donate as much as you can to be able to be granted passage to heaven.

The more you pay, the more the clergy will pray for you so you enter such places. Out of hell, onto purgatory next and eventually heaven.

I forgot the name of the papers too! But Martin Luther was VERY against this since it was such a bad way to be able to get salvation. : / Holy = Eartly? NUH AH!

It's not just the bible that contradicts itself, even the church does.

As in BOTH CLERGY AND FOLLOWERS OF THE FAITH. xD

They do stuff that they're not supposed to and still go and fro to do the good news.

O_o Like... Okay I do something bad today, I'll make up for it tomorrow.

Sth like that. It's confusing!

Why not do good always? Why does it have to be some kind of a scoreboard thing? >_>

And this...fear for hell. It's unreasonable!

It starts from when you're a kid, where your parents -your first teachers- scare you with images of the ugly horned devil and how he enjoys it when little boys and girls misbehave and you burn and all that.

...O_o

Yeah...those things...I always thought it was an interesting concept. I always thought it was ones own actions that decided if you went to hell or heaven and if you asked for forgiveness. I didn't think others could ask God for the forgiveness for you.

Yes... passes out of purgetory. They had a proper name, but I don't remember what it was. That's kinda what sparked that comment in the first place. I remember when I learned about the practice in my history class... I was just like o Ao;;;. And I think they really went to padding the pockets of the clergy, or at least the Pope (whoever it was, there were several like this), as he rather liked having his pockets padded.

I don't think a person should be judged by their religion, either, but I do think one could validly judge a religion based on its followers. If a person goes around acting in a manner unbefitting their religion, then it casts a bad light on said religion.

With the exception of a very few (that ass in Kansas being one of them), Christian churches generally teach forgiveness, not to judge, be kind, the Golden Rule... oh, and a whole set of spiffy Commandments that have gone on to define the laws of these United States (to a point) and society in general. If you listen to none of this, why should anyone still consider you (mind you, this you I am using is a general you, not a specific you) a Christian at all?

This was also brought up in the other thread, about how people like Raymond Buckland aren't Wiccans anymore because they disobeyed an edict set by their institution. So, following the same logic, shouldn't a Christian not be a Christian if they go against what is considered the Christian way?

People are imperfect creatures. Hence they need the guidance of the supernatural God to be able to help stir them back.

So if they did something wrong, they should ask forgiveness and do their best to repent. Hopefully not to repeat the same mistake again and again.

From how you read it, the Christian God can be pretty amazing at how forgiving he is.

But his being jealous can be quite frightful. xD

The way the god of Abraham seems to be portrayed in the Old Testament, he's rather like a young child. Hot tempered, throwing tantrums, sticking close to his friends and giving them the better candy, etc...

Anywho, humans are imperfect creatures, but the sheer amount of non-Christian-like Christians is absolutely astounding!

And, of course, you have the actual non-Christians claiming Christianity. I mentioned the ass in Kansas, already, Fred Phelps. If you don't know who he is, he's the dick who was having his cult minions picket soldier funerals... He used to just picket gay funerals, but that wasn't getting him enough press. He runs a website called godhatesfags.com, and has vehemently stated that the 9/11 terrorist attacks were sent by God because America is accepting homosexuality.

... He is a man who tests the absolute tolerance that I am trying to develop as a budding Buddhist, I swear.

And of course you have those whack jobs who decide to "marry" little girls... What annoys me most about them is that they seem to like to claim Mormonism as their basis, but it just goes to show how ignorant of the religion they are. But because they publicly say they are Mormon and that's why their pedophilic polygamy is okay, it sheds an awful light on a tradition that is already under undue scrutiny.

Lol. God hates fags. xD

I bet his basis was Sodom and Gomorrah.

...Which isn't so solid a basis in itself too you know.

I don't know what his basis was. Furthur more, I don't care. Hatred is a horrible, horrible emotion. I know it is useless, especially on someone like him. But just thinking about him makes my blood boil.

Almost the entirety "church" he runs (it's a Baptist church, too) consists of his own family members. They take their little children to their pickets, putting them in shirts bearing words they can't possibly grasp the meaning of. They put them in danger that way, too... not just mentally, but actual physical danger. People don't recieve well the people picketting a funeral, and they are sometimes prone to throwing things at them. If a child gets hit by this, the family gets outraged at the person who threw the whatever, even though they're the ones that put them in a hazardous predicament in the first place!

Extremists are frightening. xD

But most anti-homosexual Christians usually quote that incident + the Ten Commandments being absolute.

Things that bother me about religions that claim to be Christian are that they are usually one sided, close minded and judgmental. Not all of them, but most.

Well, one sided and closed minded are the same; meaning that they are not open to new ideas or thinking. And don't try to question why or what they believe because they won't listen to you. I tried talking to my MIL who is a devote Christian about hell. You see, I do not believe that there is a hell. I haven't seen any proof in the Christian bible that God sends sinners to a fiery pit to suffer for all eternity. In fact there are numerous scriptures where it says that the price of sin is death. And that the death are conscious of nothing at all. Seriously, if the dead are conscious of nothing at all then how can they suffer if they sinned? She wouldn't have it, told me that I would be going to hell...etc..I also don't believe that God is part of some trinity, which she also believes in...I won't even go there.. lol

My point about that, was that I'm guessing the church she goes to, teaches those teachings. Every Christian church teaches that there is a hell....even though their bible doesn't actually say anything about it.

Most Christian religions are judgmental about others beliefs. Homosexuality, they are humans deserving of equal treatment. Pagans, hell...Christians adopted pagan beliefs into their own, they should at least treat them with respect by not "condemning them to hell". (What I mean by saying that they adopted Pagan beliefs is that most of the Christian holidays have pagan backgrounds mixed in with their own beliefs.)

The story of Sodom and Gomorrah was that the town was full of men and women who had "loose" relations with each other. I think that the fact that in the story, when the host of the house offered his two virgin daughters to the rioting men outside, and they turned them down, demanding the guests. That they turned that into a bit against homosexuality. And the fact that the name Sodomy (anal sex) came from the word Sodom...kinda puts the icing on the cake.

I think, what makes a Christian a Christian is a person who believes the word of God, AKA the bible. Doesn't take anything out of it, doesn't judge others. Christians shouldn't kill, meaning that if their where "true Christians" then there won't be so many wars. Christian's shouldn't lie or steal either. They shouldn't hold up picket signs protesting funerals of fallen soldiers, coal miners, or actors who happened to portray a homosexual in one movie. God is love...they should reflect that...not hatred.

BUT if you actually CARED to study the whole Sodom and Gomorrah incident supposedly, the whole loose relations thing wasn't really solid.

What was solid however was that the angels were mistreated at first as guests until Lot took them in and was hospitable.

Though my facts on that are a little fuzzy so don't quote me. T_T

With what you said about 'don't question, just believe' is a trait of a lot of Christian branches, you don't ask, you just believe and stick to that. There is no explanation, just blind faith and that's that. Sadly, that's as far as it goes. Or sometimes when explanations are given, they never give you an answer still. Or the whole 'Shut it or you'll go to hell.'

Religion is complicated. XD

Another thing: why condemn the so-called pagan religions when in actuality... Christianity borrows a lot from Pagan beliefs? :P And the sub branches of it? Oh, they actually MERGE Christianity with their local religions that had been supressed and pretty much wiped out by the conquerors back in the day.

Originally Posted by whitebeast

BUT if you actually CARED to study the whole Sodom and Gomorrah incident supposedly, the whole loose relations thing wasn't really solid.

What was solid however was that the angels were mistreated at first as guests until Lot took them in and was hospitable.

Though my facts on that are a little fuzzy so don't quote me. T_T

Well, considering the only real information about S & G is from the bible because History really doesn't even have record of the places existing. One can really on go on that for why it disappeared. Scholars do believe that the twin cities resided in the vicinity of the Dead Sea. Which if you think about it, would make since, since Lot's wife was turned into a pillar of salt, according to the accounts. Some scholars believe that a Earthquake destroyed the city..

but who knows, really.

Originally Posted by whitebeast

Religion is complicated. XD

...yes it is... lol but it shouldn't be...there are so many "branches" of Christianity that it isn't funny.

I watched a documentary in which S&G's destruction was theorized to have been due to a meteor shower.

XD And it was somewhat coincidental but... Still surreal considering it all came to happen on that very day.

It wad on Discovery Channel.

The portrayal of the place was nothing like the popular loose town of harlots and hypersexuals. Rather it was a thriving merchant town.

They managed to trace the meteor shower thing thanks to this stone tablet not too far from where it was, I think from the Mesopotamian area?, where scholars found that there was a falling star.

Christianity has the misfortune, I suppose one would say, of being so popular. Let's face it, the majority of the people in the world are prone to doucheyness. When a single religion includes 33% of those douchey people, yeah, the whole religion is going to look bad. One also has to take into consideration Christianity's origins. Their first big thing as a religion? Getting fed to lions. And they very quickly went from being persecuted to ruling what was at the time the largest and most powerful civilization in the world. They never had to learn how to get along with others, and they don't have many examples of how to live with non-Christians peacefully and without attempting to dominate them.

Then of course, there's all the misunderstandings of their own religion. Most Christians (or rather, it seems that way), believe some ridiculous things about Christianity and the mythology it takes from Judaism. For instance, all but a handful of the Christians I've met believe the serpent in Genesis is Satan and Satan is Lucifer and all of them are evil, naughty people. They believe in the "Rapture". They believe in Hell. There is no scriptural basis for any of this, and yet they believe it so completely that they feel the need to preach about it. I blame this partially on Christianity's open door policy, in that anyone is Christian if they believe Jesus was the messiah. This, unfortunately, includes people who either have not read the Bible or have read it but read it with what they wanted to believe it says already in mind.

Originally Posted by whitebeast

I watched a documentary in which S&G's destruction was theorized to have been due to a meteor shower.

XD And it was somewhat coincidental but... Still surreal considering it all came to happen on that very day.

It wad on Discovery Channel.

The portrayal of the place was nothing like the popular loose town of harlots and hypersexuals. Rather it was a thriving merchant town.

They managed to trace the meteor shower thing thanks to this stone tablet not too far from where it was, I think from the Mesopotamian area?, where scholars found that there was a falling star.

That sounds like it would of been an interesting show, I love watching shows on the history of the world. I was just going by what I found online..that WASN'T on a religious web site. lol

Originally Posted by Philomel

They believe in the "Rapture". They believe in Hell. There is no scriptural basis for any of this, and yet they believe it so completely that they feel the need to preach about it.

lol finally something we agree on. I read that the teachings of hell in the Christian religion started by some preachers who wanted people to come to church on Sundays. But that might be wrong....O_O

I do know that the only mention of a fiery torment was the parable of Lazurus, which was just an illustration, not a reality.

This is why I do not like Christians. I've read parts of the Bible (not all of it) and actually act more like a devout Christian than a Christian itself, and I'm Agnostic!

The Bible is full of contradictions, which is why I started hating the religion. I was baptized as Greek Orthodox, grew up in a Jewish/Christian household and celebrated Jewish and Christian holidays. Over time, I started to notice the inconsistencies from the Bible and the way the "Christians" would act.

That's when I stopped believing, and went on to study other religions. I have yet to find a religion that I call "home", but I'm interested in Buddhism and Paganism. If only people still worshipped the ancient religions and deities, I would be interested in trying my faith there. I prefer pre-Christianity religions over the post-Christianity religions. I think the old, ancient religions have more truth in them than the Bible has.

Originally Posted by Leenalia

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That's when I stopped believing, and went on to study other religions. I have yet to find a religion that I call "home", but I'm interested in Buddhism and Paganism. If only people still worshipped the ancient religions and deities, I would be interested in trying my faith there. I prefer pre-Christianity religions over the post-Christianity religions. I think the old, ancient religions have more truth in them than the Bible has.

This sounds funny, but I always though ancient religions such as Shintoism, Buddhism, etc where romantic and beautiful.

The "Christian" religions such as Baptists and Methodists, Catholics..all them..they are drab and boring. Preaching how you will go to hell..

What get's me is when a child dies, and priests state that: "God wanted them in Heaven." WTF?! Why would you say that, its like saying God is a douche who just wants to make you miserable.

Thank you for agreeing Megami. I feel the exact same way when someone says that. I highly believe that you are in control of your life and death, so when someone dies, I believe that before they were born into that someone - they decided when and where to die. The only exceptions are those that die from accidents and wars and stuff beyond their control.

Originally Posted by Philomel

Christianity has the misfortune, I suppose one would say, of being so popular. Let's face it, the majority of the people in the world are prone to doucheyness . . .

Then of course, there's all the misunderstandings of their own religion.

Philomel, thank you for pointing that out. The faith cannot really help that it has plenty of douchebags who decided that they'd like to be Christians. I would also point out in addition that there are extremists in every religion who use their religion as an excuse to hurt others. Personally, I no longer even think about the religion itself anymore but ask instead, "So, what's the real reason they hate so-n-so?"

As for the comment about the majority of the world being "douchey", that's an element of human nature. The mindset is "I'm right, and all my beliefs are true so you much follow what I believe!" Once again, that is something that does not belong to any one religion, culture, or ethnicity. It is a part of the human mind. No offense to anyone else here, but there are douchebags in Islam, Buddhism, Hindusim, etc. Really, everyone has the capability to be douchebags, and we all have been at one moment or another a total idiot.

Your second point is due to the fact that as children, we are taught the simplified stories that have been passed down for generations. I do believe that "the serpent" is a metaphor for evil, but I do not believe that if you're homosexual, not Christian, etc. that you're going to hell. I don't even believe in Hell because as someone pointed out, Hell is a construct of the Church. I do believe in an end times, but not necessarily the one propagated by armageddon ministers.

And Sen Lee's question about why is there strife in the world? There is because God gave humans free will, and unfortunately, men allow evil to dwell in their hearts. I do not believe that God is necessarily completely good either because He made us in his image, and He's shown His fury before, but neither do I believe that He is vengeful. Illness and Death are fundamental workings of nature and without them our world would not be able to really exist, so I respect disease as a part of God's creation too.

Yes, I'm a Christian. No, I don't believe all the things that some others do. I also appreciate that some of you realize that not all of those who belong to my faith are a**holes.

It was! It even explained the salt pillars thing.

The whole S&G was meant to be a story to scare people even if it was mostly folklore supposedly. Heck if even tried to explain the parting of the red sea... BUT IT WAS JUST TOO SURREAL TO BE AT ANY GIVEN TIME. The scientists went that the parting of the sea is just TOO monumental to happen any other day. So still there's a level of mysticism linked to that event because it just HAD to happen at that time scientifically.

They weren't trying to disprove stuff using science.

They were using science to find it out and see if it was real then mesh them together in a manner that any ordinary person would understand it.

Most of the time, when people of the faith see Science poke their noses at religious instances, they go 'You're such a doubting Thomas! Why must you try to prove it! Just believe it already!'

But you know? It's not about doutbing. It's about tracing history.

Religion, particularly this one, has been so about blind faith that any act of trying to figure it out is mostly refused and not even received so well.

But it's not like we appreciate the fact that the reason why the Ark of Covenant managed to repel random people was because of electromagnetism and doesn't it dazzle you they could think of sth like that at such a time? : /

And lol at the 'God wanted them in heaven.'

People it just doesn't work for kids. It works for 'supposedly' good people.

They were just too good to stay in this evil world that God took them already.

WTH? IF THEY WERE GOOD, THEY SHOULD'VE STAYED AND HELPED MAKE US BE GOOD.

...WAIT. ARE WE JUST THAT BAD?

Hey people, have you seen how most devout Christians tend to backlash the New Agers? Saying that these people who handle palmistry and tarot are actually listening to a voice not of God's and stuff like that? xD Then that they shouldn't cater to such people because it damns them just as much.

But despite what they say about those people, you still see Christians paying and even asking advice from them because they can help tell/advise about the future.

XD

I don't believe that humanity is inherently bad. In fact, I hold more to the idea that human consiousness is actually a good. It is the ignorance of how the world works that clouds this good and makes them do bad things... but that is a very Buddhist sentiment and I can understand how others may not hold to it. However, because of this belief I will not accept that Christianity as a religion (not as a faith, mind you) has so many issue just because humans are born with some sort of inclination towards evil.

So I guess it all comes back to the ignorance, ne? Christianity frowns on questioning your beliefs, which I think stems from the time in history when the Church was squeezing it's fist around European peasants who were uneducated.

I do find it interesting how often Christians misinterpret their own holy scriptures, and their apparently refusal to accept that things that worked for humanity 2000 years ago doesn't actually hold true in this day and age. (Masturbating was a sin, ya know? o_o) I was reading an article on Satanism a couple of months ago, which is when I learned that ha Satan and the angel Lucifer were not one and the same.

And, really... what makes Lucifer so evil? He defied God because he was jealous and that makes him the worst enemy of humanity in history? o_O

*wanders off to work*

The fall never actually happened :P The only time it is mentioned is in Revelation, just like many other ideas that completely contradict the rest of the Bible. "Lucifer" is rarely used as a name (besides in pagan Roman mythology, of course), and is used twice in the Bible: once in reference to the king of Babylon, as he had risen so quickly and would fall just as quickly, and once in reference to Jesus, as a light-bringer.

@ Sen Lee: Uh, I was never taught that mankind was inherently evil. I was taught that by eating the apple, Adam and Eve allowed the knowledge of evil into the world, as in the knowledge of how you may sin. My interpretation has always been that humans can allow evil to rule them, or they can choose to be faithful and not let evil rule them.

Oh, and as a fun fact: My pastor taught me during catechism that the story in Genesis was only an interpretation of how the world may have begun. He admitted to us that the Bible might not have happened just so, and that we need to make our own decisions about what the Scripture means.

And yeah, "Lucifer" is the Latinized name for the angel Samael, or at least that's what theologians believe. "Lucifer" actually means "light bringer" so it's always bugged me that people would choose to call "the devil" by that name. Personally, I don't believe that there really is some Evil Guy running around making people do stuff. I've always thought of him more as a scapegoat for the "pious" who didn't want to take responsibility for their own actions, but that's just me. However, I do believe that there is evil in the world.

Fact is, the world is a delicate balancing act, and you have to have evil in order for there to be good. The difference between evil men and just ones is that the just realize that they have the capacity and choose not to do evil acts while the evil men don't give a flying flip.

There are even other interpretations where Lucifer, the angel, was made for the very purpose of rebelling and providing the world a chance to learn of going against the flow (ie. sin and evil). : /

And that he and God regularly talk about things, seeing how they would work with the world. Meaning he's still under God's service but he's just not in Heaven. =w=

Or that Lucifer didn't mean to and was just overcome by envy and stays where he is until he can be taken back to Heaven by God's side.

@_@ Really, how did Satan = Lucifer anyway?