First, here's what I mean by "irreligious."

Irreligion is an absence of, indifference towards or hostility towards religion. Depending on the context, it may be understood as referring to atheism, nontheism, agnosticism, ignosticism, antireligion, skepticism, freethought, antitheism or secular humanism. Sometimes deism is also included in this group.

(In this context, I will be including all of the aforementioned.)

So here's what spurred me to make this topic. For all intents and purposes, my fiance and I are deist, and consider ourselves irreligious. We're not members of churches or other groups of worship. We do have beliefs contrary to atheism, but we could in no way call ourselves religious, in the sense that we belong to no institution.

As such, we wanted to have a civil ceremony to get married; that is, one that is not performed by an ordained (religious) minister. We felt it wasn't appropriate, especially since we are not members of any particular church. In the United States, the only place to have a "religion-free" ceremony is through the court system. In several states, this function is performed by the Justice of the Peace.

We've been trying for two months to get a date set at our local courthouse. We wanted a time somewhere between New Year's (for tax reasons) and January 7th (so that the appointment would not conflict with my fiance's school schedule). My fiance finally got ahold of the courthouse today, and the only time available between now and then is Dec. 28th. We're kindof miffed that the court is so inflexible with its times, and only one judge even performs ceremonies.

We're in a small town in the bible belt, and this adversity, even though unintentional, is somewhat defeating. Now we're talking to a friend of ours, who is a minister for a local Unitarian church. We know it's not really the case, but we feel persecuted by the state. If we were, say, Christian, we'd have PLENTY of options; there's a slew of churches in the area and I'm sure we would be able to find a minister to perform the ceremony. But as an irreligious couple, our options are extremely limited and we feel even worse for atheists who may want to marry in the area; we're lucky enough just to have a Unitarian church to go to.

TL: DR;

Do you think irreligious are persecuted? Have you ever experienced persecution as someone who is irreligious? What changes would you like to see in order to promote equality between the religious and irreligious?

I think they are, yes, in certain areas. Obviously an irreligious person who lives in an irreligious community would probably not be persecuted. I live in a small town in Wisconsin, religion is pretty big around here. I never went to church as a child (except weddings, stuff like that but not for sunday school, in the morning, etc). And in sixth grade, my classmates finally began asking me why I didn't go. And I really didn't have an answer, other than my family wasn't religious and I don't think any of us (my family) believed in God.

Automatically I was a devil worshiper and shunned. Some friends stayed at my side, and that really helped me through the middle school years. In high school my classmates were a lot more tolerant, having matured. Or, they just got used to it after awhile I don't know.

Of course I'd love to live in a tolerant world where everyone accepts everyone no matter their religion, sexuality, skin color, what have you. But that will never happen, and I've come to accept that. I am who I am, and that's all I'm going to be. I'm not going to pretend I'm Christian because some nut thinks I worship the devil. I consider myself agnostic, I suppose.

On a sidenote, I'm sorry you had to go through that with your planned wedding :( I have a feeling I'll be experiencing something similar to that, should my girlfriend and I decide to marry. She is Wiccan (I think, she practices something like that but I honestly can't say I know what exactly it is).

The more I think about it, the more that the community aspect seems to be the biggest contributor. Even though we're in the bible belt, we do have a large muslim community (largely due to the university here in town). There are several Islamic centers in town as well. I feel that, though they are a minority, even they have more options than an athiest would.

I guess we're just kindof "punished" for not organizing ourselves. I mean, sure, we could join the Unitarian church, since our beliefs don't collide, but I don't feel like we should be forced to. I enjoy having a community not centered around religion (or even lack thereof). I don't want to join a church any more or less than a secular humanist group. I just really don't feel the need to affiliate with people just because they have similar beliefs; how else could I expand myself as a person, if I only surround myself with people who won't challenge what I believe in?

Originally Posted by Keyori

The more I think about it, the more that the community aspect seems to be the biggest contributor. Even though we're in the bible belt, we do have a large muslim community (largely due to the university here in town). There are several Islamic centers in town as well. I feel that, though they are a minority, even they have more options than an athiest would.

I guess we're just kindof "punished" for not organizing ourselves. I mean, sure, we could join the Unitarian church, since our beliefs don't collide, but I don't feel like we should be forced to. I enjoy having a community not centered around religion (or even lack thereof).

I agree, I'm very anti-organized religion these days because it's so hypocritical and hateful in many cases. They refuse to look outside of their little group for answers, instead feeding off each other. :(
So, why should I join or make a group, if it will only end up corrupted, because like the human body, as things grow and expand, there's a chance for something to go wrong, the cells mutating what was correct, and becoming a cancer, instead of something actually useful and worthwhile, like, I dunno, lungs.

Heehee, lungs.

You're right though. There are some groups that do awesome things for each other and for people outside their groups. I get excited when I hear about churches that go on mission trips to places like Mexico to help build homes for those without shelter.

But then, there's also some really awful corrupt groups (especially Televangelists and Scientologists) that just suck up a bunch of money to better themselves but not others (or even members of their own congregation!) And that just makes me wonder why they're allowed to be tax-exempt. >:[

Hmm... I wonder if there are any tax-exempt secular groups? That revolve around secularism itself, not around a particular cause (since there are plenty of tax-exempt secular charities, but those are about the charity, not about the secularism).

Oh, another anecdote I just remembered:

I had a conversation with my grandmother some time this past summer, about marriage equality. She basically said that she supports the rights for gays to marry, because if that's what their church is okay with, then it's no business of any other churches to intervene with those practices. But then she said that she said we shouldn't allow atheists to marry, because marriage is about God and if you're an atheist, you don't have God, ergo you "don't really have marriage."

I had a hard time wrapping my head around that logic.

If there is, I've never heard of one. :sweat:

I have heard a lot of "Athiests don't have a moral code to live by, so they must be immoral heathens." though lately. :sweat: It's very frustrating, because I consider myself a fairly moral person.

I've heard that argument as well, Keyori, actually. I don't really agree, marriage stopped being a truly religious thing a LONG time ago, IMO. Now it's legal papers and rights.

I've seen this going around facebook lately...

So let me get this straight - Larry King is getting his 8th divorce, Elizabeth Taylor is possibly getting married for a 9th time, Britney Spears had a 55 hour marriage. Jesse James and Tiger Woods are screwing EVERYTHING, yet the idea of same-sex marriage is going to destroy the institution of marriage?? Really? REALLY...

Funny story... the Unitarian minister who might be marrying us is gay. And married. (License is from... Canada? I don't remember, though I know it's not from Mass., which was the only place where it was legal at the time they married.)

But yeah, as far as the state is concerned, marriage is about property and child custody, not anything religious.

From the standpoint of a couple who believe in a Creator but not a "hands-on" type God, we figure there's no point in bringing "God" into our marriage. It's either sanctioned by some higher power or it's not, and involving a minister will not change that. If there is a higher power, it is narcissistic to believe that we have any hand in controlling or invoking it in order to sanctify some archaic ceremony between two people. At least, that's what we believe.

Edit: Another anecdote (jeez I'm an awful debater today).

My uncle is on his third marriage. His first marriage was Christian traditional. It ended terribly, and he never spoke to his ex-wife after the divorce. They didn't have children either.

His second marriage was also Christian traditional. It didn't end quite as terribly. They adopted a child together. I still call her my aunt, and she does come to many family functions. They get along quite well.

His current marriage has been the longest of the three. He was married by a Justice of the Peace. No children (and I don't think he intends to have any, since his daughter is in her 20's, so he's getting kindof old for that).

So really, it's not even like the involvement of religion (or a particular god) will affect the outcome of a marriage either. In this case, it looks like the opposite (though I would hesitate to assert that the reason the marriages ended were because of religion).

Exactly, and that's what it's been about since the middle ages, women, slaves, titles and deeds, land, property were traded through marriage through the rich and the poor alike.

That said, today it's supposed to be more about "true love." But, it's really not. People get married these days because they rush into things, unplanned and unprepared, and end up divorced later because they shouldn't have gotten married to begin with, or because they're looking for "that right one" and won't work on any issues with this spouse, which...If marriage is a religious thing the way most people think of God (being all caring and all knowing and all up your butt about what you do in your life), isn't that an insult to God?

Keeeey, that's awful >< I didn't know that about America. Over here it's super easy to have a non-religious marriage. You can go anywhere you want outside of a religious building and ask a registrar to come and perform a service. It's a simple as that. I'm sorry you've had such trouble D:

I'm not here to debate really, just suggest -- why don't you have a friend marry you? XD You can be 'ordained' online in no time. :) Eroy married her brother and his wife. And you don't have to be religious at all. Check it out:
About Universal Life Church Monastery | ULC | Online Ordination | Universal Belief | Online Church

Well the main problem (from the standpoint of this thread) is that it's technically a church with a ministry. Even though you don't necessarily have to be religious, it implies that there's a religion, as far as the state is concerned. You can't be an 'ordained atheist' since there are no atheist ministries (technically).

From a personal standpoint, I'd rather not pay for the documents. Some states require a certification from the church that states that the minister is indeed ordained or is in good standing or whatnot. That's how those sites are successful; they charge outrageous amounts for copies of those documents. But yes, we have looked into that, and we do know someone who is ordained through ULC, but she lacks documentation. That's why we're just going to try to get the UU minister friend of ours to do it, since he is already documented through his affiliate church (the center here in town is like a satellite or something weird, I'm not exactly sure how the UU structure works for their churches, I just know it's not a full ministry or anything).

Also, I have had my aunt's brother offer his service as well. I'm not sure who he's ordained through, but again, the point stands that there is a "religion" involved. The only way to have a truly secular ceremony is through the state.

How long have you two been together? You could be married under common law. This differs from state to state. One state I lived in said that after, 7 years a man and wife lived together in the same domicile, they were considered married. With the tax issue, you just have to make a choice.

I follow no particular dogma. My friend best described it as eclectic. I think that all the religions are just the splitting of white light into colors. No one getting it all right, but having some aspect of truth. I understand your frustration of religion, I was irreligious at one time. People couldn't believe that one would do the right thing without the threat of punishment from a higher source. Tolerance is important for both religious and irreligious people. It takes time and courage to stand up for your own beliefs. People speak out of ignorance calling us devil worshippers. I just try to live as an example to others that they have no reason to fear me.

Using religion to comfort one's self is common. Consider that you need no outside force to comfort yourself, as being lucky.

My state doesn't have common law marriages. :(

I recall though, most states set it at something like 7 years. We've been together for 4 and a half, so not quite there anyway. :)

Also, I did say that I believe in a Creator. I'm just not religious, as in, I don't belong to a religious institution, nor do I have a common set of beliefs with any particular group of people. ;P

In any case, the default state of being is secular and irreligious. I guess that's another motivation for wanting to keep religion out of our dealings. I mean, no one is born with an inherent belief in any particular dogma, or with the knowledge of the existence of one or many gods or creators; these things are learned from the people around us. The ideas are perpetuated onto children, typically by parents. To assume religious as the primary or default state of being is silly, in my opinion. It really highlights the importance of the separation of religion and government.

I can appreciate the value that religion has in the lives of people. I can even understand the importance of wedding traditions to people. I just don't appreciate how difficult it is to have a completely secular ceremony (at least, in my state--I'll admit common law marriage is another way to remain irreligious, and I didn't consider it before, but again, this is not an available option for me). I don't understand why the default state (secularism) isn't honored in this country anymore. I don't understand why God is on money and in the pledge of allegiance (recent developments, all things considered!) I can't fathom why it took until this presidency for even a non-belief in a higher power to be mentioned with those who have faith in something. And I really, certainly do not understand at all how people can think that we are or should be a nation based on Christian principles when founders such as Thomas Jefferson were not only non-Christian, but adamant and outspoken opponents to Christianity! I don't like how the people who serve in our military and who happen to be atheist are harassed (to use a nice word). I don't approve of how the irreligious are so often excluded from so many considerations.

I don't have anything against Christianity in particular, especially modern Christianity. I do have a problem with people who try to force their views onto me or assume that I believe in the same thing as them, as if Christian is the default state of existence. I do hate how people behave towards the irreligious, as if we lack moral compass.

I know Christians who support war and the death penalty. I know Christians who have cheated on spouses, divorced, lied, stolen.

I am a pacifist, with no criminal record, who has NEVER cheated on anyone (let alone divorced).

And yet it is I who lack a moral compass, because I do not belong to a church, or temple, or synagogue? Because I do not have some arbitrary document that dictates how I should behave?

I am (as someone irreligious, along with homosexuals, typically) blamed for so many things, for the crumbling of the foundation of our country. Why? Why should I be treated that way? Why are people scared of me or become hostile toward me when I tell them that I only believe in the possibility of a Creator? Atheists even have it worse than I do; at least I believe in something that may or may not exist.

Sorry to get all rant-y, but this has really been on my mind lately, and this thread isn't really supposed to be about my upcoming ceremony, it was just an example of how irreligious folk are treated differently.

I had a conversation with my grandmother some time this past summer, about marriage equality. She basically said that she supports the rights for gays to marry, because if that's what their church is okay with, then it's no business of any other churches to intervene with those practices. But then she said that she said we shouldn't allow atheists to marry, because marriage is about God and if you're an atheist, you don't have God, ergo you "don't really have marriage."

I had a hard time wrapping my head around that logic.

Originally Posted by Keyori

*snip*

I know Christians who support war and the death penalty. I know Christians who have cheated on spouses, divorced, lied, stolen.

I am a pacifist, with no criminal record, who has NEVER cheated on anyone (let alone divorced).

And yet it is I who lack a moral compass, because I do not belong to a church, or temple, or synagogue? Because I do not have some arbitrary document that dictates how I should behave?

I am (as someone irreligious, along with homosexuals, typically) blamed for so many things, for the crumbling of the foundation of our country. Why? Why should I be treated that way? Why are people scared of me or become hostile toward me when I tell them that I only believe in the possibility of a Creator? Atheists even have it worse than I do; at least I believe in something that may or may not exist.

Sorry to get all rant-y, but this has really been on my mind lately, and this thread isn't really supposed to be about my upcoming ceremony, it was just an example of how irreligious folk are treated differently.

Geeze, what a warped logic your granny has. Marriage is about loving one another, not loving God or believing in him, or getting an union approved by him for that matter. I live in Turkey, where the state has the official say on this matter, and marriages of people who have gotten married only by religious eremony are treated as invalid. The reason for this is Atatürk the visionary trying to rid the Turkish people of an islamic way of life, but that isn't what this thread is about.

UPDATE!

This is relevant. It's not exactly new news anymore (it's about a month old), but important to the thread nonetheless.

For those of you who can't follow the link: a father was stripped of his joint custody of his children due to his agnosticism.

DISCUSS.

It's not just the irreligious who have problems, I'm a Catholic and I live in the south United States. Most of the people in my community are Baptist or Pentecostal so there's nowhere I can go to worship. I have not been to church in years and people around here are barely aware that Catholics are Christians. I spend half my day explaining myself to the people around here. Over the years I've been insulted and often times excluded from community activities. For a time we attended a nearby Lutheran church but the members made it clear that Catholics were not welcome. I have no where to take communion or to attend mass because there is no Catholic church in my area. I don't consider it to much of a problem, after all what can I do? I'm not about to demand that people change their religious views to accommodate me, not that that would even work anyway.

I think it all depends on where you live as to how you are treated. People at my school are mostly Atheist and Agnostic and most I get along with, others think that because I am a Christian I'm out to get them and they have given me a hard time in the past. The bottom line is that it doesn't matter what you are someone is always going to persecute you if you're not like them.

My school is in another district so it's a big jump from the community I live in

Mostly this irks me because I'm not even of a different religion I just worship differently, some of the families in the neighborhood won't even allow me to watch their children because I might "Influence" them. I'm usually an easygoing person and most people don't even know what my religion is until they ask. Of course it doesn't help if the first question someone asks is not "What's your name" but rather "What Church do you go to?"

I believe it. I'm sorry you've had terrible experiences too. I remember in my high school history classes when we talked about JFK's election, and how everyone made a big deal out of how he was Catholic because that somehow meant that the pope would be come a de facto ruler. What a silly notion! :lol:

Originally Posted by Keyori

Heehee, lungs.

You're right though. There are some groups that do awesome things for each other and for people outside their groups. I get excited when I hear about churches that go on mission trips to places like Mexico to help build homes for those without shelter.

But then, there's also some really awful corrupt groups (especially Televangelists and Scientologists) that just suck up a bunch of money to better themselves but not others (or even members of their own congregation!) And that just makes me wonder why they're allowed to be tax-exempt. >:[

Hmm... I wonder if there are any tax-exempt secular groups? That revolve around secularism itself, not around a particular cause (since there are plenty of tax-exempt secular charities, but those are about the charity, not about the secularism).

Oh, another anecdote I just remembered:

I had a conversation with my grandmother some time this past summer, about marriage equality. She basically said that she supports the rights for gays to marry, because if that's what their church is okay with, then it's no business of any other churches to intervene with those practices. But then she said that she said we shouldn't allow atheists to marry, because marriage is about God and if you're an atheist, you don't have God, ergo you "don't really have marriage."

I had a hard time wrapping my head around that logic.

I see your point as far as tax-exemption goes, and because I think it's relevant to that point, I'd like to share this video.

YouTube - Separation of Church and State

On top of being informative and entertaining, it brings up some good points that people don't always consider when talking about religion and legality.

I really don't have much to add to the discussion right now but I was just thinking.. When I was a kid I didn't know what "god" or "religion" was, i had heard of jesus and the bible but I just thought he was some historic person or made up person from a book. But still I was baptised as child and all weddings I've been to has been in churches. My parents are members of the church (protestantic), so are my grandparents and still they've all specifically said that they don't believe in god or are religious. Which is why I think it's so ridicculous that they made me take the confirmation, "because it's a tradition" was their reason. I think it's odd and contradicting that someone can be member of an organised religion and still call themselfs "irreligious", but I don't think it's very uncommon though.
I'm aware I'm just rambling, sorry about that >.< Was just wondering what you think...
By the way I have no idea where I'd go if I wanted to get married not as part of a church (or other religion) in my country.

This is actually something that came up in my own life that I wanted to actually talk about myself, to be honest. I had a friend say that she was getting disillusioned with religion and my boyfriend's brother posted a comment that "People who can't be in an organized religion are a cop out," and I was astounded, because to a degree, a lot of people use religion as a cop out. A lot of the people I know that go to church haven't even read the bible and a lot don't even really know what it says. They just listen to whatever their priest says and that's what they believe. It's a bit ridiculous to me, honestly. Then again, I'm irreligious, but was raised in a religious family, so I've read the entire bible. Yes, the entire thing. With all of it's so and so begat so and so, and it doesn't sum up my beliefs. So I chose no religion. I believe in God, sure, but not a God cast and molded into something specific.
I have my own beliefs that come from my own spiritual 'quest' and not from someone else's rhetoric.

So, yes, I've been through something similiar. I live in Utah currently and am dating a religious boy. He doesn't mind that I'm irreligious, but oh boy, his family does. (Though, admittedly, they like finding any reason not to like me, but that's another story.)

I think it's very common in states like Utah and in the bible belt, where a lot of people are religious, for those that aren't to be seen as bad. (Satan worshippers, Godless Heathens, whatever.) I've also lived in Washington and while I was still going to church for the most part when I lived there, no one really cared whether you were any religion. Not only was it rare for anyone to even ask you about your beliefs, but no one tried to argue, and for the most part, everyone mingled quite well.

So it's only common where the community is largely religious (and I don't mean largely belonging to a religion, but regular church goers and such) and where it's largely conservative. Basically the places where people tend to be more judgmental in general.
And one thing I don't like about organized religion is that if you tell someone that you belong to a certain religion, they think that they know what you believe. I actually just kind of discussed this with my boyfriend because Faulkner brought it up, the whole 'Catholics aren't Christians' thing, he's Orthodox Christian and him and I briefly discussed why some people don't consider Catholics Christians, and I was kind of surprised at the 'whys'. Like because they cross differently, they're not Christian? He says that one is about 50/50 and depending on who you talk to, but Mormons aren't Christian, because they don't believe in the cross. These are all a bunch of little things, because technically being Christian means believing in the teachings of Christ, and last I checked, he never said that anyone had to cross a certain way is a little silly.

And while discussing this with him, I've realized something (again) that I've observed before. People are defensive about their religion, especially when they know they don't know everything about it, and they don't like it when 'outsiders' know more than they do. And the presence of someone who doesn't believe in their religion leaves them open to wondering if their own religion is wrong. If that makes sense? The presence of doubt can lead to anger.

And I just read that article and that is ridiculous. I would sue their bum off. He lost rights because he had a different religion than his ex-wife? They are both the parents, they are both allowed to share their beliefs with their children, and from the sounds of it, he was even keeping his nose out of it and not complaining about them going to a Christian day care or anything.

I have to say it makes me sad when people who claim to be Christians, like myself, know nothing about the religion but presume to tell others what's right or wrong any how. You have know idea how often I see people talking about Catholicism like it's a completely separate religion. Just yesterday I got accused of being a devil worshiper who was going straight to hell by some batty old hag on my street. But that's how some people are, if you don't follow their specific branch of the faith then you must be of a completely different religion.

"What? You aren't a Baptist? OH MY GOD! BEGONE SPAWN OF LUCIFER! DEFILE MY PORCH NO LONGER!!!!"

Then there are the ones who pretend to be nice about it.

"Well honey I'm just concerned that you may not be going to heaven, why don't you just listen to the sermon and let the TV pastor tell you what's right."

I don't know which is more obnoxious....and personal I think televangelists just want money and are not to be trusted to tell the truth.

Originally Posted by Keyori

UPDATE!

This is relevant. It's not exactly new news anymore (it's about a month old), but important to the thread nonetheless.

For those of you who can't follow the link: a father was stripped of his joint custody of his children due to his agnosticism.

DISCUSS.

There was more to it than his agnosticism. There are reports of him stalking his ex-wife, and other things that would strip him of his joint custody. But it's true his lack of belief should never have been a ruling factor. Also, he gained joint custody again recently, I believe.

As for the main topic here, persecution is thrown out way too flippantly. Until we're being killed off, or driven out of the country for our lack of believing, then you can call if persecution. Think of the countries that have Shari'a law, until we have something like that, we're not being persecuted.

Nobody's being persecuted. We're just not fully accepted, much like homosexuals.

It's situations like this that bring up a favorite saying of mine, "I have faith, not religion."

Largely my views are Baptist but lately I mostly classify myself as someone with a relationship with Christ. Usually when I tell someone my beliefs they think I'm out to argue religious points or push my views on them. I always have to defend myself in some sort as to not offend anyone. :(

Most of the people in my area are not religious. It tends to be the other way around in my area (Western Pennsylvania)- the nonreligious people tend to pick and prod at the religious folk. I've been called names to my face and literally told that my Savior is still dead. So really, goes both ways.

Prosecuted is somewhat of a bad word for it. But I dislike those who are atheist or irreligious who are rude about it. Pointing out people's beliefs, making fun of it and feeling that their lack of belief is the only logical correct one in the whole land.

Those people should be slapped with a giant trout and burried at the bottom of some harlot's dirty underwear.

But the ones who are respectful and can mind their own business about what other choose to believe, then no. They're fine.