These have always fascinated me, probably because as a straight girl I don't really understand them? I really don't know. But Hyena:s comment elsewhere prompted me to start up this convo.

This is the statement that a lot of people make that a girl is classed as "too girly to be gay". What's all that about? If you're a lesbian you're automatically expected to look "dykey". This baffles me : /

Now again I personally find it confusing that a girl who finds other girls attractive will often end up dating someone who tries as hard as they possibly can to look like a guy. Do you see my issue here? For me it's quite the paradox that women who don't want to date guys often end up looking (and behaving) very male themselves.

Part of this is may be not wanting to be tied down by gender expectations, yes? And really, if you don't want to comply with how other humans/the media expects a woman to look then there's not a whole lot of other options open to you. But it does amuse me that the very stereotypical gays(which to me is "butch" lesbians and screamingly camp guys) do seem to basically swap genders. With the girls cutting their hair short and wearing mens clothes and getting tattoos and piercings and generally acting as unfeminine as possible, and the guys being uber-concerned about their appearance, spending hours in the bathroom, spending a fortune on clothes and getting into interior design :lol:

I'd love to have some insight from a gay girl as to what they think compels some girls to look masculine themselves, and date masculine girls, when the celebrity women that they find attractive are typically very feminine.

And why some gay women do shun femininity so completely. I'm not sure that making yourself look male is a true reflection of the inner person, that just seems like another wall to hide behind, for some at least. Almost a uniform so you can feel part of a group and be recognised by others?

Like I said, I'm confused! ><

I've noticed this too. Of course not every Lesbian or Gay does this, but it does seem to be a common that even if your in a same-sex relationship there is still a 'dominant /male' and a 'submissive /female'. I hate thinking of it that way but it's the only way I can think of right now.

Yeah, I'm conscious of using stereotypical thinking to define things, which is why I'm hoping for some insight from the people who actually do it themselves and so on.

Where I used to work every single lesbian that I knew about slotted into the "butch" stereotype in varying degrees. A girl I worked with, Lyndsey, she did the short hair/man's clothes thing. She even wore boxers, and aftershave instead of perfume, and her girlfriend was also very non-femmy, but Lyndsey really, really fancied Dannii Minogue.

Another girl, Mel, made fun of herself because of how stereotypical she was, and she herself commented on how all the lesbians there were butch ><

I wonder if with some people it's partly a reaction against "lipstick lesbians". I can see why fakes who make out with their female friends to attract guys would wind someone up because they annoy me too!

I am a lesbian, so maybe I can offer some insight. I'm not "butch", but I'm not "lipstick lesbian" either. I have short-ish hair, to my shoulders. I don't wear makeup, don't spend hours in the bathroom. However I do have some feminine clothing, but I usually wear jeans and a t-shirt/sweater. I don't try to act like a guy, I just act how I feel comfortable in. I feel most comfortable in jeans and a tee.

My girlfriend is what people may call a "lipstick lesbian". She wears makeup, lots of feminine clothes, does her nails, all that girly stuff. But it's because it's what she likes to do, she likes to be prim and proper while I just don't. And it's not because I'm the "dominant/male of the relationship". She's a LOT more dominant over me, while I would be the submissive type.

I was talking to someone once, one of my stepbrother's friends. He was CONSTANTLY hitting on me, and when I finally told him to fuck off I have a girlfriend he asked me: Which one of you are the guy? And I just facepalmed. There is no guy in our relationship, that's kind of the point of being a lesbian.

And I see plenty of straight women dressing as guys, and even straight guys dressing feminine. But people notice more homosexuals acting that way, because I suppose, it's to be expected. People just assume that if someone dresses a certain way, they must be gay. One of my mother's friends has short hair, baggy clothes, never wears makeup. And she's completely straight. And how many of those (for lack of a better term though I hate it) emo/scene guys wear makeup and black nail polish, but are straight?

I think it's just what they're comfortable in. And some people have gender issues, feeling that they are really a man when they were born female. Or vice versa. I'm comfortable in "guy" clothing - jeans and a tee - but I'm as much of a woman as a straight woman wearing makeup. That's just how I feel. >.>

EDIT; I read through this and realized it probably doesn't make much sense. Sorry. :cry: I tried.

You hit on an interesting point there actually!...that people notice these dress-types more when it's gay people, and then make assumptions... I see endless women that I assume are straight, who make no effort to look nice, older women especially. Just wearing shapeless unattractive clothes, but then maybe I'm more aware of this because I'm not much of a casual dresser myself and actively dislike what I class as "slobby" clothes. I don't mean I dress up all the time, but I do try to look nice and I wouldn't be caught dead in a sweatshirt :lol:
I suppose there's numerous levels with everything. If I wear jeans and a t shirt it's a fitted T (not tight though) and a pair of bootcut jeans, and some cute flats. Were as someone else might wear a baggy T and baggy jeans and sneakers.

So, I wonder then, how many gay women dress in a stereotypical fashion because they feel obliged to, or it's just how they like to dress, or they just have no defined style of their own? Or any number of other reason??

And, I wonder why humans in general do feel the need to pigeonhole absolutely everyone...

So, does a gay woman maybe wear baggy clothes to avert the attention of males? And, by direct comparison, does that mean someone like me who wears more fitted stuff is sending out covert signals? :gonk: I don't want to think that because there's only one person that I dress for, and that's me ._.

Gay women may wear those to divert attention, at least some may. Each have their own reasons I suppose. I just don't look good in pretty primp clothes, I think xD. I tend to wear fitting jeans, and fitting tshirts. But with a baggy sweater over it, most of the time. Even with that I get guys hitting on me, though. x_x

I don't think many dress that way because they feel they must, or obliged to as you said. My girlfriend has been trying to get me dressing all nice, she says I need "style" :cry: I felt like such a girl (lol pun) yesterday when I went shopping. I got one of those long sweater shirt things, which you wear with leggings? It looks pretty good on me but it's so FANCY. I want my boxers back please :gonk: Anyway off topic >.>

I have a super gay mega fairy friend, really, he has the high voice and he's the stereotypical gay male. Wears feminine clothes, does his hair, nails. And his boyfriend, my stepbrother, doesn't. He acts and dresses like a stereotypical straight man. The only slightly feminine thing he does is his hair now and then, when I shave a mohawk for him. So really, I think it's just a matter of preference, though some may dress that way because they feel they should.

Haha, you don't like being pushed out of your clothing comfort zone? I don't think many people do actually, most people are self-conscious about wearing something different.

Absolutely. I want to stay in my little hidey hole of jeans, boxers, and tank tops please :gonk: I suppose it would be good to get some other clothing styles though, just to try them. But most of those nicer clothes are more expensive, and money I do not have.

I think people should break out of their comfort zone, too. Who says guys can't wear dresses?! Some guys look awesome in them :lol: Heck, even straight people wear what they do because they feel they have to. Girls don't have to wear dresses, skirts, makeup, etc. Guys can have long hair, eye liner, and still be straight. Criss Angel looks sexy in eye liner :ninja:

I'm a dyke, I concider myself neither butch or femme. I'd say there's a billion reasons why people dress as they do. And often because of how they feel that they are expected to look like. Even when you completely choose to look in a certain way, you choose it for a reason. It's sort of easy to look like sterotyped because then you feel part of the group, most people don't dress extremely diffrent from their friends. Peoples need for a group to belong in is extraordinary. By the way, many straight girls I know are afraid to look "too butch" or "not femine enough" because they're afraid that people will think they're butch/gay or whatever. I recognize this from before I told people that I'm gay, i was afraid that if I dressed butchy people would figure it out. All I'm trying to say really, is that people dress like they do for a whole lots of reasons.

I came to think of something in your post though. This quote: "Now again I personally find it confusing that a girl who finds other girls attractive will often end up dating someone who tries as hard as they possibly can to look like a guy. For me it's quite the paradox that women who don't want to date guys often end up looking (and behaving) very male themselves"

First of all, butches look like they do for diffrent reasons and that reason is usually not that they're trying to look like guys!
And next, You're saying that if one is not attracted to super-feminine girls one can just stick to guys? The thing is, I think that people should just stop seeing feminine and maskuline as these to opposite forces that clashes.
Something that I have noticed is that butches and sissys, use these "roles" to bend the gender-roles. Not only gay people, (my friends hockey-team concist only of butches and her, only a few of them are dykes. xD)
The idea that girls are girly and boys are maskuline and boylike offend many people. Mostly because most people feel they dont fit that frame, simply because people are more than just stereotypes in general. Take shaving for example, I wonder all the time why I shave my legs. Is it because I feel it's expected of me, or because it makes me feel more beautiful, and why is shaved legs supposed to be feminine and beautiful? It's a fairly new ideal. I don't know why so mostly I just keep doing it because that's what I was taught to do.

And now I have completely lost track of what I was trying to say. I'm sorry I used so many words to say so little, I guess I got a bit upset there for a while. To sum it up: There's all sorts of people in the world, and they like to do what they think they want, and there's no way of telling why people do them. end.

Oh yeah something else. Almost everyone I know (who is gay) dress up more sterotyped for Pride (me included). I started to notice that two years ago at euro-pride and then I read this blog-text about it. And it's kinda strange and funny in a way, like: "oh yeah it's a special occasion" I mean this guy I know who is bi and very "guy-like" he has worn at pride: tiny tiny tank-tops, pink bunny-ears, leatherpants, he has even cross-dressed. He would never do any of itt normally. It's kinda amusing :D

I think that a person doesn't necessarily look a certain way consciously, and that applies to people of all sexualities. For example, I like cap sleeves and ruffles, and I have friends who stick strictly to hoodies. My friend Joel has a closet full of plaid. o_o

Some people simply appreciate a certain aesthetic, and its a matter of probability when a lesbian prefers a more 'masculine' wardrobe or a gay man prefers to dress in drag. Oddly enough, I know at least three people who are straight and LOVE dressing like women. Whatever makes you feel fantastic!

However, I have run into a few things that make me question it. For example, my friend Julie has always been just a little bit on the manly side and she is a lesbian. I didn't really connect the two because... well... I can be very oblivious. But when she came out to her parents, she immediately began dressing increasingly masculine. What I think it is, in this situation, is that you have to take into account the region. We live in Indiana, and its quite a backwards town. Once you get out of the university setting, it becomes quite clear that the rest of the city isn't gay-friendly. Now, why would someone in a situation such as hers begin to dress in a way that calls attention? Well, in a way it becomes a sort of camouflage. What people in our region seem to think is an affront to their safety (and their children's safety) is the fact that anyone could be gay. Dressing in a way that fits the stereotype will then serve as a forewarning: "This person is gay." It becomes easier to find your allies, and identify your enemies, so to speak. However, that is just one reason.

Also, she dresses that way because she is "full of pride." Though, I kind of find it to be a little off-putting that her only personality characteristic for the past three years has been "I'm gay." -shrug- But who am I, honestly, to bring someone down?

I like to wear pretty dresses and go shopping. Some people like to wear leather and ride motorcycles. Some people like to wear pretty dresses and ride motorcycles.

Hyena, your last bit totally reflects everything I was trying to say in three obvious sentences :XD I love it.

Originally Posted by Aspinou

You're saying that if one is not attracted to super-feminine girls one can just stick to guys?

Gosh no! It didn't sound like I meant that did it? I just meant what I said. I find it difficult to wrap my head around a woman who isn't attracted to men, going out with someone who looks like a man, that's all. But of course that's just me looking at that from the very shallow surface of things, because of course there's a whole lot more to being male than just physical appearance.

I've now decided that no matter how much this is talked about, I am personally never going to get a good grasp on stuff! but I have realised one thing and it's what I said about pigeon-holing. I think it's far more prevalent then I ever realised, I also don't realise that I'm unconsciously doing it myself even though I hate it! ._.

I agree with ya' jelly. I'm pretty open minded with things, but seeing a man in a dress, for lack of a better word, bothers me. It doesn't really, but I don't know how else to explain it XD I mean, most children are raised (around here, anyway) that girls wear girl clothes and guys wear guy clothes. But my family has always been the "odd" family around, so I am more used to seeing taboo things than other families around here.

Whatever floats your boat, I suppose :XP

Maybe it's because no matter how open minded we feel we are, there's a little part of our brain that's saturated in the human do's and don't's of what's typically expected of us, and that bit pokes us whenever it sees something that's traditionally classed as "wrong".

Or...maybe it's just that while a person might be totally at ease with, to go with your example, a guy in a dress. But...well xD if the guy looks stupid then the observer is less likely to react in a positive way to it >< David Beckham might be able to look awesome in a sarong, but then he's "fit" and famous and hero-worshipped and has a team of stylists telling him what to wear. Your average Joe might not be able to pull the look off so well. So you'd have the instant negative reaction from people because here's a man wearing something that is not normal man wear, OMG, something different! Run for the hills!! And probably, sadly, here's a man who looks a bit of a berk, so people will then ridicule him.

Because that's what people do about the "different", isn't it? Something makes them uncomfortable, and possibly even frightens them because it's different and they don't know how to react to it, and the horribly typical human response to change that they have no control over and fear is anger and violence. Which on its lowest level is ridicule and cruelty.

It must be very horrible for transgender guys, seeing as they don't generally make good women because guys have no idea basically, do they? Of course I'm generalising wildly there, but I'm always impressed when I see a guy who's had a sex change, or is pre-op, and they look believably female and are dressed nicely, and have their hair done nicely! Because the average male is clueless about this kind of stuff, even if they want to be female.

There's two "guys" in my town, I think they're both pre-op, one looks amazing, and the other looks embarrassing :( The first one dresses down! This is so important...so many guys seem to think that to look female you need to dress like a whore and wear drag queen make up. But this guy I'd say has female friends who've shown him the way and he has lovely sleek hair, subtle make up and dresses really well. Really the only thing that gives him away is his huge hands.
The other guy wears short skirts all the time, and hideous make up and has no clue how to do his hair, and he looks like a man (badly) wearing (cheap) women's clothes (I was behind him in the post office one day, it was cold outside and I'm just idly thinking..why wear such a short skirt on a cold day, especially with bare legs...and WTF thick socks showing at the top of the boots?! then I saw who it was and was like "oh.."

It must be so much easier for a female to male transition when it comes to being visually accepted as your new sex. Poor guys have so much to learn!

Well maybe your friend is a drag queen? They typically wear super odd feminine clothes.

There is probably more pressure for a trans guy to turn female, as females tend to care more about their appearance than males (generalizing, but it's kind of obvious for the majority). Doing their hair, buying nice clothes, makeup, nail things, all that. But guys usually don't care about that sort of thing. Hell my stepbrothers would wear the same clothes for a week if my stepmother and I didn't steal them from their room to wash them. It's really gross >_>

Yeah, I'm not sure what it is about the Y chromosome that makes it allergic to soap and deodorant and so forth :lol:

I don't know that guy, just knew of him because he lived at the same end of town as me at the time, and because of how people are in general there was a bit of gossip and finger-pointing about him, he didn't wear weird clothes, just dressed really badly because he simply had no idea how to dress as a female.

I get what you mean. I'm still baffled how a guy can be into a girly guy. Then again, why do straight women like girly guys? Personally, I like my girls to look like girls and my boys to look like boys. haha

Male or female sex is defined only by certain physical characteristics, not how one dresses or anything else. I don't see why it should seem strange for people to have differing tastes in what type of male/female they prefer.

Originally Posted by ll P W E E P ll

Gay women may wear those to divert attention, at least some may. Each have their own reasons I suppose. I just don't look good in pretty primp clothes, I think xD. I tend to wear fitting jeans, and fitting tshirts. But with a baggy sweater over it, most of the time. Even with that I get guys hitting on me, though. x_x

^ Hi, you sound like me. Though, a lot of my jeans are pretty baggy because I've lost weight in my legs since buying most of them. :P
I'm a "straight" female though, so being hit on by a bunch of guys at a party is really flattering. xD;;

It's because they are gay..So yeah.

Originally Posted by Imaginative Sarah

It's because they are gay..So yeah.

What's because who is gay? :?

Haha, that response kind of negates your user name, Sarah :sweat:

Originally Posted by ll P W E E P ll

I am a lesbian, so maybe I can offer some insight. I'm not "butch", but I'm not "lipstick lesbian" either. I have short-ish hair, to my shoulders. I don't wear makeup, don't spend hours in the bathroom. However I do have some feminine clothing, but I usually wear jeans and a t-shirt/sweater. I don't try to act like a guy, I just act how I feel comfortable in. I feel most comfortable in jeans and a tee.

My girlfriend is what people may call a "lipstick lesbian". She wears makeup, lots of feminine clothes, does her nails, all that girly stuff. But it's because it's what she likes to do, she likes to be prim and proper while I just don't. And it's not because I'm the "dominant/male of the relationship". She's a LOT more dominant over me, while I would be the submissive type.

I was talking to someone once, one of my stepbrother's friends. He was CONSTANTLY hitting on me, and when I finally told him to fuck off I have a girlfriend he asked me: Which one of you are the guy? And I just facepalmed. There is no guy in our relationship, that's kind of the point of being a lesbian.

And I see plenty of straight women dressing as guys, and even straight guys dressing feminine. But people notice more homosexuals acting that way, because I suppose, it's to be expected. People just assume that if someone dresses a certain way, they must be gay. One of my mother's friends has short hair, baggy clothes, never wears makeup. And she's completely straight. And how many of those (for lack of a better term though I hate it) emo/scene guys wear makeup and black nail polish, but are straight?

I think it's just what they're comfortable in. And some people have gender issues, feeling that they are really a man when they were born female. Or vice versa. I'm comfortable in "guy" clothing - jeans and a tee - but I'm as much of a woman as a straight woman wearing makeup. That's just how I feel. >.>

EDIT; I read through this and realized it probably doesn't make much sense. Sorry. :cry: I tried.

THANK YOU SO MUCH. I'm pretty much the same way. I love baggy jeans and t-shirts. I'm not lesbian, but I'm bisexual, but I feel the same way. I don't feel the need to wear makeup all the time, but when the occasion calls for it, I'll wear nice clothes and I'll wear makeup (I do a lot of singing, so I I wear makeup for the concerts I perform in), and I mean...I'll have times that I just put on some nice clothes because I want to, but more often than not it ends up being more of a hassle than anything, so I just tend to stick with the jeans ant t-shirts because it's easier. I know plenty of straight girls who feel the same way I do and will wear baggy jeans and t-shirts.

Originally Posted by jellysundae

Haha, that response kind of negates your user name, Sarah :sweat:

I'm glad I wasn't the only one who thought that >3>;;

Originally Posted by Glitter Golgotha

Male or female sex is defined only by certain physical characteristics, not how one dresses or anything else. I don't see why it should seem strange for people to have differing tastes in what type of male/female they prefer.

What's strange is how a man who dresses in a predominantly feminine fashion can attract a man who prefers masculinity rather an femininity. And vice versa for women.