@ liquid diamond - ^^

1. I do not believe any name-calling has a place in a debate thread. Regardless of whether or not such statements are valid.

2. Making assumptions on the education of others who are responding to you is completely disrespectful. If you're going to pose an argument, especially one with high controversy, I'd expect you to have enough maturity to expect more arguments against you and to avoid calling everyone stupid with doubts of how high their education has taken them. If you're going to start off by telling us how we obviously don't know anything at all and doubt our backgrounds, I'd love to swap transcripts. In fact, I'd love to see what degree you have that qualifies you go around determining how smart an individual is.

3. Your original point seems to be almost irrelevant, since you seem to be just as much saying that Fashion has no impact at all instead of the original point that people shouldn't base their opinions off of TV shows. In fact, you're completely disregarding the fact that sociology is literally the study of social behavior. Therefore, it is more suited to understand sociology. I'm not denying that understanding to some degree the fashion industry is helpful in improving your validity, but since not everyone has the time to major in every area and field out there just to form a valid opinion, they're more likely to take courses on the studies of social behavior. Naturally, understanding the functions of an industry would result in some understanding of how they impact everyone else. But if that's all anyone needed, then wouldn't it save these industries tons of money just taking care of it themselves other than hiring people who are specifically trained to observe such phenomena?

I understand that the Industry has standards for their models. After all, it's a business. Have people with a bad rep and you can't use them. They'll just lose you money. That same idea crosses over into other industries as well. Nobody wants a bad rep when they're dealing with some sort of product that they hope to be sold to the masses. However, they can't possibly be oblivious to the impact they have on everyone. That's why they're such a big industry. Because they impact people. They have some sort of power over how people think. They know this. And they use it. That's how they get their products sold.

So, regarding your point?

Nobody has to be an "insider" on any industry to have an opinion. People should, indeed, do some amount of research to have an educated opinion.

But there's no denying the impact the Fashion Industry has. It's not to say that it's entirely intentional to go about making girls feel horrible about their bodies. That's a result of their own insecurities and their peers' attitudes, which happen to be in response the media they take in from the industry.

Well, it may not be solely because of the fashion/modeling industry. There is a lot of pressure from the music industry and other media as well. Remember all the hullabaloo when Jessica Simpson recently gained weight? She was no where near obese, and yet suddenly, she's some sort of heifer and needs to stay out of sight. I'm sure this made a lot of young girls look at themselves and feel badly.

I don't believe one has to be an expert on something to understand it's effects. Many- I think it would be fair to say most- models, especially fashion models, are quite thin. Sure, the rules have been changing a bit, but thin has been 'in' for quite some time. I've heard the opinions of certain designers regarding 'heavy' girls.

"These are fat mummies sitting with their bags of crisps in front of the television, saying that thin models are ugly," Lagerfeld said in an interview with Focus magazine. The creative director of the fashion house Chanel added that the world of fashion was all to do "with dreams and illusions, and no one wants to see round women".

i love when people try and say that the modeling/fashion industry creates an unrealistic ideal of beauty as though the rare combination of being both slender and tall and having features that are almost alien was unrealistic, when clearly these girls exist.

Certainly, they exist. No one is saying they dont. "Clap your hands if you belieeeve!" The fact is, there is a lower percentage of very tall, and naturally very thin women. Knowing a bit about genetic human history, this makes sense. But when on every cover of the magazines in the grocery stores give you tips on 'How to lose 5-10 pounds fast!' printed over a skinny, lovely woman, and every garment or jewelery piece in a fashion magazine is being worn by a thin, lovely girl, it starts to make one think.

Thin and tall and lovely seems to be the average perception of aesthetics. Life seems to be very harsh to those who aren't. That's just how it is. But if the fashion industry would be more accepting of average sized women, less young girls would be compelled to starve themselves in hopes of attaining a impossible ideal.

Oh girls like that certainly exist!! They're not imaginary people going down the runway.. but I think it's the fact that women want to be like that when it's clearly not in their genetics that's the problem, or their body type is shunned when they might not even be overweight (like the average sized girls).
They're basically being told to be one way and look a certain way -only-. I just can't help but feel like that's a little wrong, since there are plenty of pretty girls who aren't skinny.

And Mau, the OP is a boy (the eyes gave it away).. just a very well kept, clean, good looking boy. I can't tell the age though.. he looks so young, but his grammar and spelling tells me he's older :gonk: oh the guessing!

I actually believe the fashion industry and societal ideals function as entirely separate entities.

The fashion industry is merely a reflection of artistry and subculture--nothing more. It does not set standards of how a person should physically look--but rather what style of clothing or aesthetics they should be wearing.
While I do notice that there are never really any curvy or overweight models, I don't take it as a personal attack or stance against people who are bigger.
After all, the fashion designers are like any other type of artist, and they have the right to use whatever canvas they please. If tall and thin is what suites them best, then I don't see why society should force it upon them to change their styles.

It's my belief, rather, that society takes these images created by the fashion industry and uses them to set 'comparisons' and 'standards.' After all, you won't necessarily find a fashion designer protesting against 'fat' people on a street corner, it's that one 'fashionista' in high school calling the girl who's twenty pounds overweight 'fat' and 'disgusting' because she set a standard for other girls her age based off what she saw on Teen Vogue (nobody told her to do that, especially not the magazine).

People make other people miserable.
And the fact is, I could look at 'tall and thin' images all day and NONE of them would ever pop out and tell me that I was too 'fat' or too 'ugly.'
It wouldn't be until my low self-esteem, jealousy, etc. kicked in and told me that I should be unhappy with myself, and that I should look more like that skinny model in the photo that has been altered so that even her eyebrows aren't real.
Or if some other person came along and told me I wasn't as 'good' or 'attractive' than the model in the picture.


Now, I'm certainly not suggesting that the fashion industry has not been the cause of subculture ATROCITIES(who can forget sequin clothes, dogtooth, crocs?), but they're certainly not the sole cause of people being too sensitive or having low self-esteem. Or for that matter, how people decide to project themselves towards others. Only they can make that decision, the industry does not force anybody to do anything. People give this industry wayyyyyyyyyyy too much power.

LOL crocs...

Crocs were just bad >.>' I heard they're bankrupt now though.
I mean, there were only so many colors of crocs and Dora the Explorer push-buttons you could own before you had them all.

Originally Posted by pojke

i changed the wording of my sentence, after i realized that attainable wasn't the word i was looking for. also, what is being implied is that i am unaware of eating disorders, and the causes of said eating disorders. in many cases, eating disorders are issues of control, rather than being issues with body image.

What is being implied is that insight into the fashion industry is not the same as an insight into the hypothetical effects of the fashion industry. Take this crude MacDonald's analogy, just because you know how the burgers were made does not mean you understand the obesity epidemic. The two things are separate. Your knowledge of the fashion industry does not enable you to absolve accusations against the fashion industry.
In cases of anorexia, control may be a contributing factor. In bulimia, certainly not. Bulimics have an inability to control their binging episodes. Body image can be a contributing factor in eating disorders. People perceive themselves as being to fat or fear gaining weight in case they are too fat. What causes the eating disorder varies from individuals, so it would be a fallacy to assert it as control.

Originally Posted by pojke

something that is very obvious that a lot of people seem to not understand is that an agency isn't going to represent a model who gives them negative press. an agency WILL drop you for being too thin, an agency WON'T take you if you are too thin, and an agency definitely is going to drop you if they find out you have an eating disorder because that reflects negatively on the agency.

The agency's perceived norm for a model is not the medical perceived norm for a 'healthy' weight individual. This is what is being criticized. As I said before, even organizations and figures within the fashion industry have come out and said that there are problems with how the fashion industry presents itself, hence why some agencies and fashion weeks ban size zero models, or use older models or plus size models or disabled models.
The industry that you are trying to defend recognizes the problems that exist within it.

Let's be honest it's not the shows that are the problem. They don't claim this is what it's like, they in fact state that while they are giving a glimps of things . . . it is very different. No it's not the shows, the problem is in the people watching them. Not all, and this sort of thing will happen with any kind of show about anything. People in a very general sense are stupid. Very, very, very stupid. There will always be those who will see something on tv and turn around and start claiming they know everything about it now cause they watched a half hour special on it. The worse part about this is the less they know the more adamant they are about how the know more than you, even if you just spent the last four years of your life working in the industry.

I assume people are including eating disorders when they talk about blaming the fashion industry. Well, to be honest, if it was cool to be fat I think we'd have more fat people than thin. Whether or not the fashion industry is trying or not trying to do something, girls and guys are still going to go for that "perfect" look.

But anyways, if we're all so ignorant of how the industries work, why not instead of just saying that, EXPLAIN IT. hm?

A similar statistic says that 99% of opinion dump threads don't belong in the Debate forum.

Funny, right?

Good debate brah.

Kris - LMAO *hifive*

Originally Posted by Kris

A similar statistic says that 99% of opinion dump threads don't belong in the Debate forum.

Funny, right?

i didn't post it in the debate forum it was moved lmfao

The media has incredible power over how people in general, not just women, and not just men, even children and adults, the young and old, all skin colours, all sizes view themselves.

It's hard not to compare yourself to that girl in that one ad, with the hot boy all over her.
You have to think, "What's she got that I don't?"
"What's so special about her?"

The media emphasizes sex. Why? Because SEX SELLS.

Also, coming from someone who has dabbled in modeling when I was younger, it's a brutal field.
You have to fight to stay on top, I didn't have the drive so I dropped out and now, as an adult, do adult modeling on the internet. :lol:
Yes, that means I pose nude. It's a lot freer and a lot more fun and since I am making my own website and I can have people who are directly interested in my "style" come right to me, instead of worrying about "will my manager approve of this shoot? Will this shoot help or hurt my image? Shit, I hope those 5 pounds are just water weight and I'll lose it before the shoot next week."
Because YES, in some places, shit is like that. Those 5lbs right around your belly, is a big deal sometimes.

On the other hand, you don't have to be perfect if you've got the right face, or a good name already, there is photoshop and a lot of men and women, especially kids, don't realize that, "not all that you see is real".

If you mean blaming the fashion industry for beauty standards.
Without all this studying the industry, I don't why not place some of the blame on the fashion industry?.

Unless you have a deep interest in becoming a model or designer or anything in or around that branch of work, I find it near pointless to keep up with celebrities and models.

Just this month Prada and Marc Jacobs have been attempting to change what the industry views as the perfect body. They sent women down the runway in outfits emphasizing their breasts. Yes, women with breasts, not women who look like 13 year old boys.

Lara Stone is one of the most popular models right now, and she has boobs and hips. And people in all facets of the industry love her. She just made the cover of Interview, the last time they featured a model on the cover was years ago.

Kim Noorda is being featured in an essay in the next upcoming American Vogue issue in which she talks about her eating disorder. She entails how she was forced into rehab to gain weight. She doesn't point fingers in it, but she does say that she perceived a lot of criticism about her new weight. She didn't fit into all the sample sizes, and she said that not many people reacted positively to the weight gain.

Anna Wintours has even spoken about how she thinks one reason we might be lacking supermodels in recent years is because they are always on such extreme diets to conform to an idea of beauty. They lose some of their personality when they lose their shape.

So in summation, even Anna Wintours is admitting it's the industry's fault that its models are lackluster and underfed. Two huge designers are trying to do something edgy with these endowed models by showing the rest of the industry that body fat can be beautiful. Hopefully since they're so highly praised that they, along with Lara Stone, can revolutionize the industry.

we recently did a section on advertising and images in our literature class. i don't think it's just the shows. and i don't think that people are 'bashing' the fashion industry because of those little shows. i think people bash the 'industries' because of the image they put up. their standard is skinny women, pretty women. did you know that most of the commercials for products like shampoo, hair products, and cosmetics airbrush and photo-shop the photos of women they use in commercials and for labels and covers? the beauty and fashion industries have also had one thing going,a nd that is the use of only skinny/tall women. i think this is wrong. just because overweight people aren't stereo-typed as beautiful because of their weight, doesn't mean they AREN'T beautiful. there was recently a fashion show done with just bigger women. and they ALL looked gorgeous. either way, America is obsessed with weight. being skinny, losing weight, not being fat, obesity, etc. the fashion and beauty industries feed this obsession with only using skinny models and only making clothes for skinnier people. do you mean to tell me that it is wrong that people look at themselves and feel ugly after seeing multiple commercials for weight loss and for makeup products with only these women? this is a perfect reason for people to bash the beauty and fashion industries.

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also about the '99%', I think that hyperbole is good in writing, but it is wrong that you are using a made-up statistic to support your theory.

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also, dandelina said that people/models are obsessed and compelled to conform to the image of beauty. i support this ^.^

Just thought I would enlighten some people.

I just spent a week as an inpatient at a hospital with about 10 or so other girls with eating disorders. pretty much every single one of them said their reason for being there had nothing to do with self image to my supprise. many of them said that they felt they had no control over their lives- that their parents were very dictating and they binged/restricted themselves from eating because it was the only thing they could see that they could change thus granting them instant gratification for having control over that aspect of their life.

my sister has been in the modeling industry a few times and refused plenty of offers (simply because she would rather stay home and play WoW but besides the point) she said that there wasn't that much difference between the modeling industries she was in and the ones you see on t.v. even though they were just local things, just alot less glamorized. :|

Originally Posted by monstahh`

The media has incredible power over how people in general, not just women, and not just men, even children and adults, the young and old, all skin colours, all sizes view themselves.

It's hard not to compare yourself to that girl in that one ad, with the hot boy all over her.
You have to think, "What's she got that I don't?"
"What's so special about her?"

The media emphasizes sex. Why? Because SEX SELLS.

Also, coming from someone who has dabbled in modeling when I was younger, it's a brutal field.
You have to fight to stay on top, I didn't have the drive so I dropped out and now, as an adult, do adult modeling on the internet. :lol:
Yes, that means I pose nude. It's a lot freer and a lot more fun and since I am making my own website and I can have people who are directly interested in my "style" come right to me, instead of worrying about "will my manager approve of this shoot? Will this shoot help or hurt my image? Shit, I hope those 5 pounds are just water weight and I'll lose it before the shoot next week."
Because YES, in some places, shit is like that. Those 5lbs right around your belly, is a big deal sometimes.

On the other hand, you don't have to be perfect if you've got the right face, or a good name already, there is photoshop and a lot of men and women, especially kids, don't realize that, "not all that you see is real".

i love you.. marry me!?
btw, you're linking me to your website riiight?!