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Stardragon
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06-24-2010, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Hermes
This thread isn't funny anymore. I demand satisfaction.
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Why does it need to be funny?
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TheYaoiButterfly
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06-25-2010, 04:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philomel
Negligence, yes. But terrorism? Absolutely not, unless you're suggesting a conspiracy on a massive scale. Considering that the only thing this could possibly convince people to do would be to abandon offshore drilling, if indeed it was terrorism (that is, assuming any part of this was intentional), it would mean that whoever orchestrated this, likely BP's president and others with a great deal of power in the company, were secretly AGAINST oil and have spent their entire careers preparing for this single event. It's possible, I guess, but I don't find it exceptionally likely and certainly no action should be taken based on that possibility. As for the drilling itself, while it is destructive and I'm completely against it, terrorism doesn't really work if no one's afraid of it. I guess they're terrorizing the sealife, but unless otherwise stated, that's not illegal.
This whole thing just sucks, there's no doubting that, but environmental disasters far worse than this have been caused by human greed and negligence, and no one was charged with a crime.
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You took the words right out of my mouth. This was a case of negligence, not terrorism. This oil spill wasn't intentional. Terrorism as I understand it would be if BP had done this on purpose. They didn't want this to happen any more than we do. But BP and the people who inspected the drilling and didn't stop BP or say anything in their reports about it should be charged with something, but terrorism is going too far.
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Stardragon
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06-25-2010, 04:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheYaoiButterfly
You took the words right out of my mouth. This was a case of negligence, not terrorism. This oil spill wasn't intentional. Terrorism as I understand it would be if BP had done this on purpose. They didn't want this to happen any more than we do. But BP and the people who inspected the drilling and didn't stop BP or say anything in their reports about it should be charged with something, but terrorism is going too far.
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What about the so called attempts at capping the well and why did they take so long to respond to the wreck site? Oh your version of terrorism involves human lives not the future of the planet we stand on. Do you know how long it will take the Gulf to recover? What about Hurricane Season? Do you want the oil in drinking water for miles inland?
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una
God's own anti-SOB machine.
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06-25-2010, 06:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stardragon
What about the so called attempts at capping the well and why did they take so long to respond to the wreck site? Oh your version of terrorism involves human lives not the future of the planet we stand on. Do you know how long it will take the Gulf to recover? What about Hurricane Season? Do you want the oil in drinking water for miles inland?
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Are you asserting that BP intentionally choose to ignore the oil leak in it's early stages to worsen the environmental disaster? Shambolic organization is not the same as terrorism- no matter how grave the consequences are.
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Stardragon
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06-25-2010, 07:31 PM
Yes I am. Also why didn't they ask for help early in the disaster? I know that treasure hunters and harbor dredges have vacuum equipment that they can rent or buy. They could of kept the damage to a minimum. Now they have a possible Tropical Storm to deal with and in a few months Hurricane Season.
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slickie
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06-25-2010, 07:46 PM
This is not terrorism, as it was unintentional, but it could have been prevented. Now that it has already happened, it would be of no use to put people in jail. However, a few policy changes could prevent this from happening in the future. This event was caused mainly by deregulation, which means the government is no longer requiring oil industries (and many others) to properly inspect and repair their equipment as often as they should. The lack of proper training of the staff and lack of managerial supervision is another effect of deregulation.
Solution: re-regulation (yeah like that will ever happen:sarcasm: )
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Keyori
Stalked by BellyButton
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06-25-2010, 08:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stardragon
Yes I am.
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Ah, yes, of course, this is all one big conspiracy to take their sweet time so they can watch their stock prices fall to a third of its value pre-spill! BRILLIANT!
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una
God's own anti-SOB machine.
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06-25-2010, 08:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stardragon
Yes I am.
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There is major difference between negligence and intended harm. There is no logic on earth that could convince me BP would intentionally caused an oil spill in the gulf for shits and giggles- endangering itself and its reputation in the process-that is unless you have some really good bat shit insane crazy conspiracy to humour me with.
Think of it like manslaughter and murder. Murder is when you purposefully kill some one, i.e shoot, chop up with axe or beat to death with a pointy stick. Manslaughter is when someone dies as a consequence of your actions i.e negligence, drink driving, dodgy health and safety ect. Murder is to do something with intent like terrorism. Manslaughter is not intentional- it is accidental like the oil spill. Thus why it is not consider an act of terrorism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stardragon
Also why didn't they ask for help early in the disaster? I know that treasure hunters and harbor dredges have vacuum equipment that they can rent or buy. They could of kept the damage to a minimum. Now they have a possible Tropical Storm to deal with and in a few months Hurricane Season.
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Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
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Stardragon
(っ◕‿◕)&...
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06-25-2010, 09:11 PM
True but I think the plan was to jack oil prices up even more and also make them heroes.
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Lorika
I am poop now
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06-25-2010, 09:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stardragon
True but I think the plan was to jack oil prices up even more and also make them heroes.
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Ah, conspiracy theories. So rarely an accurate representation of reality.
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TheYaoiButterfly
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06-25-2010, 09:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stardragon
What about the so called attempts at capping the well and why did they take so long to respond to the wreck site? Oh your version of terrorism involves human lives not the future of the planet we stand on. Do you know how long it will take the Gulf to recover? What about Hurricane Season? Do you want the oil in drinking water for miles inland?
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No...I'm saying that BP didn't intentionally do this to harm our environment. BP wasn't taking specific steps to lead up to what happened. I doubt they wanted the oil well to break. They may have cut corners, but not because there was malicious intent to make sure that the well would break and start spewing oil. I'm not saying they shouldn't be charged with a crime...just not terrorism. It would be negligence at the most. I'm positively livid with BP and what they did. And I'm well aware of the impact on the environment down in the gulf. I care deeply about what happens down there. But this isn't a case of terrorism. there was no actual intent to have this happen (there were some stupid decisions made that ultimately lead to the oil spill)...but it wasn't like Hayward was planning for it to break and doing things to specifically make sure it happened.
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una
God's own anti-SOB machine.
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06-25-2010, 09:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stardragon
True but I think the plan was to jack oil prices up even more and also make them heroes.
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History has taught me that generally oil spills are not welcomed with a ticker-tape parade. Nor are the people who stopped them celebrated in any way.
BP oil prices have to be competitive to keep up with the competition otherwise they would loose business. You conspiracy theory does not really bear up to scrutiny*- but it was fun while it lasted :heart:
*see sig for further details, terms and conditions
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Philomel
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06-25-2010, 10:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stardragon
True but I think the plan was to jack oil prices up even more
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1) Probably not going to happen. It's a lot of oil to be in the ocean, but compared to what we use every day, it's not that much. Thus far, it's not affected prices much at all, not nearly as much as most other factors.
2) In case you haven't noticed, they don't need a reason to raise oil prices. They do what they want, because they know they have us by the balls.
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and also make them heroes.
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How? Even if they'd stopped it immediately after the explosion, their negligence still would have killed 11 people, so they wouldn't be heroes, and they KNEW they couldn't stop something like this. How does this statement, that they thought they'd come out of this as "heroes", not contradict your previous suggestion that they're intentionally screwing things up?
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Hermes
Bloviator
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06-26-2010, 08:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stardragon
Why does it need to be funny?
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Because the entire concept of this thread is hilarious. There is no logical reason to tie BP to terrorism. The only arguments for are those asserting that BP should be tied to terrorism actually have no proof or are simply just a reassessment of the fact that the oil spill is bad and somehow ignore the fact that we're talking about terrorism. And terrorism is deliberate.
So logically, this thread must be hilarious, or it is pointless.
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Fortis Silas
Dead Account Holder
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06-26-2010, 05:28 PM
I agree with the greater number of people here - and agree particularly with Hermes' excellent wording on the matter. Here to further assist in this side of the debate I have the delightful wonder of definitions pulled off of Merriam Webster's online dictionary, linked so you can see it yourself.
Quote:
Terror - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Main Entry: ter·ror
Pronunciation: \ˈter-ər, ˈte-rər\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French terrour, from Latin terror, from terrēre to frighten; akin to Greek trein to be afraid, flee, tremein to tremble — more at tremble
Date: 14th century
1 : a state of intense fear
2 a : one that inspires fear : scourge b : a frightening aspect <the terrors of invasion> c : a cause of anxiety : worry d : an appalling person or thing; especially : brat
3 : reign of terror
4 : violent or destructive acts (as bombing) committed by groups in order to intimidate a population or government into granting their demands <insurrection and revolutionary terror>
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(The bolded definition is the one that would apply in this case.)
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Negligent - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Main Entry: neg·li·gent
Pronunciation: \-jənt\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French & Latin; Anglo-French, from Latin neglegent-, neglegens, present participle of neglegere
Date: 14th century
1 a : marked by or given to neglect especially habitually or culpably b : failing to exercise the care expected of a reasonably prudent person in like circumstances
2 : marked by a carelessly easy manner
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(Once again, the applicable definition is bolded.)
Looking at the accurate definitions as to what both terrorism and negligence is, evidence points towards there being no way you could call the BP oil spill terrorism. Negligence, yes, and they should be rightfully punished for their lack of attention and forgetfulness, but they were not deliberately trying to instill fear and panic in the populace so as to persuade them to meet BP's demands.
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What about the so called attempts at capping the well and why did they take so long to respond to the wreck site? Oh your version of terrorism involves human lives not the future of the planet we stand on. Do you know how long it will take the Gulf to recover? What about Hurricane Season? Do you want the oil in drinking water for miles inland?
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You do realize that if someone accidentally kills people, it's not terrorism, right? Say someone's fireplace goes out of control while they're sleeping and burns down their house and all the houses around it, that person isn't a terrorist. Even if he burned down a whole city. Why? Because he didn't mean to. Mr. Ill Fortuned didn't sit there and plot to burn down the city so people would be scared and do what he wanted. He'll be charged, but not with terrorism.
It has nothing to do with whether or not human lives are directly or indirectly involved, but rather with whether or not it was the intention of the one who committed the atrocity to do the act in the first place. Nobody is disagreeing that what happened is awful - I think we all understand that - what we don't understand is your lack of listening to reason in what should be obvious.
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Lorika
I am poop now
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06-26-2010, 07:58 PM
Excellent post, Silas. Someone should've done that sooner.
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Fortis Silas
Dead Account Holder
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06-26-2010, 08:14 PM
Thank you, Lorika! I feel like it's important to establish definitions before you're able to debate them properly. As thus I tend to abuse the dictionary. I always have a physical copy nearby, and frequent online ones as well.
Also, I wanted to come back on the debate to say one thing:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasumi
I was wondering if polluting our beaches,marshes,ruining fishing in that part of the Gulf for maybe years,and doing a bad attempt to clean it up/making it worse. Are grounds for the charges to be handed down? Also should he be sent to Quantonimo Bay and stripped of everything he/company owns? Does anyone know how much money will be lost due to no Spring Breakers,no Snow Birds,no fishing,hospital bills,and the loss of the Summer Season(Summer Lifeguards/Tourism)? Let alone what it will do to the fragile Ecosystem there? The place is already trying to comeback after Hurricane Katrina.
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Quantonimo Bay?
I daresay that you mean Guantanamo Bay?
Should you be allowed to make political accusations if you aren't even aware of how to say one of the far more controversial political issues in both recent years and the latest election? :\ Or can't at the least bother to research or spell check to make sure it's accurate?
You act as if you're politically informed, but can't even do simple research on something as important as Guantanamo bay. I don't feel like I can trust your evidence unless you site some pretty reliable sources after something like that.
Last edited by Fortis Silas; 06-26-2010 at 08:21 PM..
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Stardragon
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06-27-2010, 05:25 PM
This might change your mind about the charges. OpEdNews - Article: Government Insiders: Get Ready for the Gulf Dead Zone Just can't wait for the Corexit9500/Methane Rain. Thank you for everyone down playing you can say it was accident when people have to leave their homes.You can also smile when food prices go up in Winter due to ruined crops.
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Keyori
Stalked by BellyButton
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06-27-2010, 06:04 PM
Let's assume for one minute that there's a shred of validity in your argument. That, for some reason, BP has orchestrated this huge conspiracy to kill some oil rig workers and spill thousands or gallons of oil into the Gulf, despite the fact that, financially, it would be beneficial for them to continue to harvest the oil instead.
You still have yet to answer: why would BP terrorize people when their purpose is profit? BP is a public company; they have shareholders to answer to. How does this spill in any way benefit them? How does this spill further their goals?
I'm not even going to touch the article; you didn't even bother to link to the original which shows your inability to fact-check and examine credentials.
Last edited by Keyori; 06-27-2010 at 06:14 PM..
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Philomel
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06-27-2010, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Stardragon
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There are a ton of problems with the information in this article. First off, it assumes that the White House is employing psychics, since it's impossible to accurately predict (accurately enough to let the predictions affect policy) weather patterns that far into the future. It also assumes we know exactly how the oil and long-term weather patterns will interact. We dont. Nothing on this scale has happened before, so by and large, everyone's just guessing. For every meteorologist who thinks one big hurricane and it'll be raining oil across the country, there's another who thinks it will do absolutely nothing, or even help matters by spreading it out thus impacting each individual area less. And the way it describes the situation is just completely off on a lot of counts. AND, it assumes that no one, ever, prepares for the absolute worst-case scenario. If the government weren't creating an evacuation plan should this happen, they'd be as guilty of negligence as BP. Then there's the problem absolutely every conspiracy theory has -- this is one unimportant, nobody publication, and yet it somehow is privy to all sorts of inside information absolutely no one else is? I'll believe it when it turns out that aliens really did fly across a galaxy just to probe ol' Farmer Bob.
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Thank you for everyone down playing you can say it was accident when people have to leave their homes.You can also smile when food prices go up in Winter due to ruined crops.
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Thank you for not reading a goddamned word anyone's said in this entire thread. Not a SINGLE PERSON has "downplayed" it, and quite frankly, I'm offended you'd even suggest that's the case. I'm not sure what your issue is, but I'll say it again and maybe this time it'll get through: IMPACT DOES NOT AFFECT INTENT. I don't care how horrible something is, that doesn't have any bearing whatsoever on whether or not the responsible party meant to do it. If you pass out while you're driving and nearly run me over, you're not charged with attempted murder. If you fall asleep with the stove on and burn your apartment complex down, you're not charged with arson. If you accidentally bump into someone and they fall down and break a bone, you're not charged with assault. Intent alone determines intent. That seems to me like a simple enough concept, but it's one you and Katsumi just cannot seem to grasp.
And you conspiracy nuts wonder why no one with half a brain takes you seriously.
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Stardragon
(っ◕‿◕)&...
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06-27-2010, 06:26 PM
Well there is the power and the sense of being un-touchable. It's not just the toxic rain it's also the methane gas that hugs close to the ground. Water can only hold so much and then it gets dumped into the atmosphere. It's hard to say how long it will hang around.It's hard to say but so far it's not looking good for British Petroleum. It's even worse for the Earth.
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Fortis Silas
Dead Account Holder
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06-27-2010, 08:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stardragon
Thank you for everyone down playing you can say it was accident when people have to leave their homes.You can also smile when food prices go up in Winter due to ruined crops.
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From my first post on this thread:
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Nobody is disagreeing that what happened is awful - I think we all understand that
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If you can't read what I'm saying, then what's the point of me caring what you think? It seems a tad rude to me that you choose to completely ignore anything that doesn't agree with you 100%.
Now to break down your second post...
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Well there is the power and the sense of being un-touchable.
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We don't live in a magical fairy book land, and evil people rarely, if ever do something just because they can. Nobody ruins a company and flushes down millions of dollars just for the thrill of it.
If it sounds like the motivation for a Disney villain, you'd better believe it's a lousy motivation for someone in real life.
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It's not just the toxic rain it's also the methane gas that hugs close to the ground. Water can only hold so much and then it gets dumped into the atmosphere.
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Give me a scientific source that concurs with this statement, as well as informs me of how much is "so much," and I'll believe you. After reading that previous article I don't trust your research.
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It's hard to say how long it will hang around.It's hard to say but so far it's not looking good for British Petroleum. It's even worse for the Earth.
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Pardon me, but that sounds melodramatic and ridiculous. Debates should be about facts and evidence, and you certainly oughtn't end your rebuttal with something that sounds like the end of a High School Freshman's English Essay. Especially when it's obvious you aren't going to sway any opinions with emotional manipulation and need to provide true, cold and hard evidence.
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Hermes
Bloviator
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06-28-2010, 08:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fortis Silas
Quantonimo Bay?
I daresay that you mean Guantanamo Bay?
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I reassert my point that this thread is hilarious. I use well cited evidence.
And then I introduce one killer body paragraph that just rocks my readers.
Come on, it made me laugh.
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Lorika
I am poop now
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06-29-2010, 07:28 PM
Just as before, I'm seconding Hermes' opinion.
Huh, I'm pretty sure my last few posts have just been to agree with him. I'm losing my imagination. Or will to live. Or will to argue in a pointless but lulzy thread.
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FatlinMara
(-.-)zzZ
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07-02-2010, 04:10 PM
If BP were to be charged with terrorism because of the oil spill then the government should also be, because our president refused the requests to put up barracades on the beaches to block out the oil (because he thinks that the barracades weren't enviromentally friendly (cause oil's sooooo much more friendly:/)), he refused the help to clean up the oil in the ocean (Which I might add does not belong to BP, but the world) from several countries due to red tape (I guess this isn't a big enough emergency to Obama to pass red tape and seek immediate help:/ ) specifically the Dutch who had a boat there and ready to go (switzerland and Canada also offered to help), as president, Obama is the master in Cheif and can tell the military to put there efforts onto the oil spill (especially the group of the army that put out the oil fires in a few weeks in the Middle East) And at the beginning of all of this Obama's number one priority was not to stop the spill or even to clean it up, but to point blaim. (Now Obama cannot stop it but he can clean the spill) and because he just pointed the blame it stopped other oil companies (who might have had great ideas for stopping the leak and for all we know could have stopped this weeks ago) from helping out because they got spooked and went to check and make sure they didn't have the same problems.
Also the reason the plant was allowed to start up without the safety equipment installed and functioning was because the government inspector (the US government's inspector) was paid off (on a federal level) to allow the plant to start-up.
I'm not saying BP is free of blame because they're the idiots who started up a plant without the proper safety precautions in place and 11 men lost their lives. That's 11 families without a dad or a really good income.
It's BP's fault that the leak is there and that it started, but it's the government's fault that is has spread to the coastlines and beyond.
My sources are CNN, MSMBC, FOX, Various news papers, Chemical engineers who work(ed) on refineries
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