Originally Posted by Kah Hilzin-Ec

Then there wouldn't be any baby born with anencephalia, unless you consider that successful.

You then must go into the issue of how something cannot be 'good' without being compared with something 'bad', and how the trials the family of that baby goes through might prepare them for something else.

You mean the Higher Power makes errors to show off to us he can do good?

First of all, I'm not supporting it as a personal stance, I'm just fond of a good debate! I'm not intending to step on anyone's toes, here. xD

And who's to say it's a mistake? The Higher Power could be doing it on purpose for some bigger plan.

It would be easier if that Higher Power materialized his/herself and told us directly what his plan is so we could actively and informedly participate in his game. Because I find using us and not telling rather abusive, but hey, maybe that Higher Power doesn't think like us and doesn't want to know how we think because we're part of his creation and mere guinea pigs belonging exclusively to him/her.

I'm always fond of a friendly debate too ;D

That's a good point!

And for all we know, it's not so much not caring as being so completely alien in all matters to us that what comes across as cruel could really be nothing it even noted, like giving a sick animal a vaccination shot.

Has anyone ever really thought about whether or not evolution is actually scientifically believable or not? .... =/ Just.... curious....

It is scientifically believable IF you give it enough time. It's merely the result of constant adaptation, which has been proven in nature, even in everyday life. Corn, for example, started off as a type of grass. It's environment favored the largest specimens of each generation, and that's what proliferated, until you have the tasty weed seed we enjoy today. Eventually, that sort of thing could logically happen in other forms of life.

Originally Posted by Kitten Disaster

It is scientifically believable IF you give it enough time. It's merely the result of constant adaptation, which has been proven in nature, even in everyday life. Corn, for example, started off as a type of grass. It's environment favored the largest specimens of each generation, and that's what proliferated, until you have the tasty weed seed we enjoy today. Eventually, that sort of thing could logically happen in other forms of life.

But isn't that just microevolution? As far as I know microevolution is the evolving of a something in-so-far as the DNA "manual" would allow... macroevolution is what evolution is based off of, and it would require the addition of DNA, would it not? Example would be a mutation, as seen in albino squirrels or other such things. Which brings up another point: if one is to conclude that the key to the past is through the present, then mutations being generally harmful to those said mutation is found in... how is it possible that an entire species could be formed from such "evolutionary" mutations?

This is where such concepts as 'natural selection' take place. Barring completely unforeseen occurrences, such as asteroid showers and the like, the creatures that develop a useful mutation is more likely to survive than its more 'normal' kin. As survival is an attractive trait for most animals, the genetic sequence containing the mutation is carried on to the next generation and so on. It is not a quick process to get an entirely different type of creature, but given enough time, minor changes add up.

Also, I would like to add that Soul Searcher is assuming all mutations to be harmful. This is not the case. A mutation is simply any random change in your genetic makeup. Have you ever seen someone (humans have it occasionally, but it's far more common in certain breeds of dogs) who has two different-coloured irises? That's a mutation, and it does not in any way negatively impact their chances of survival. Mutations can be very helpful, and improve an individual's chances to survive and reproduce.

There are facts proving that evolution is a real an naturally occuring thing. I suppose intelligent design suggests that evolution was on a guided path by a superior force? I think if you are going to include it in a class setting, that is all you really need to know. "Some people think that evolution was guided by a supirior intelligence." That's that. Personally, think that something should only be taught in school if there is hard facts supporting it. Which is why I will never agree with Creationism. However, I don't think it would be too much of a strech to think that a god or whatever was guiding it. I don't believe in a god myself, but if other people want to believe in one I have no problem with it. It's the religion I generally have a problem with.

To quote the Christian Bible itself, "Religion will lead you straight to Hell."

Which verse, Kitten? Cause that seems to contradict the whole system >o>'

Well, it was referring to the Pharisees, leader of the major faith at the time, which was as politically overrun as the Catholic Church is today. Basically, it's saying it's only Faith in God, not blindly following tradition, that will get you to heaven.

I do believe in intelligent design. I just dont think this is all just random chance. Too many wonders abide on our earth to think otherwise. Though I do think nature has been allowed to take its course.

But Echo, that position doesn't make sense :|

If nature's been allowed to "take its course", doesn't that then mean that all those "wonders" really are by chance? Those "wonders" are all caused by entirely natural phenomena, some we can even replicate, so if your god lets nature takes its course and do what it does, it's just thanks to chance that we have those pretties, regardless of whether or not it actually exists. In essence, the addition of that last sentence makes your entire argument falter quite a bit. But hey, if you're willing to admit that you have no real logical reason to believe what you do (not that there aren't perfectly good possible reasons that aren't based in logic), you're ahead of most of the IDers I've met XD

Intelligent Design and Creationism are very important to be taught along side Evolutionism. However, my people also deserve equal footing. If you teach evolution and intelligent design, then you must also teach the truth of how the great Flying Spaghetti Monster created midgets and trees and mountains out of nothing and thus birthed the world. Us Pastafarians have been ignored for too long!

Pro tip: "Evolutionism" isn't a real word. Stop trying to turn observable fact into religion, kthx.

I was being satirical O_o

Oh, my apologies then XD I've dealt with many people who actually use that word and are serious, so I figured you were.

It's fine. I know evolution to be true. So do Pastafarians. It all started when Kansas had the whole ID thing going on. This guy sent a letter demanding that his religion (which he made up) also be taught in classes in the name of religious equality. A bunch of people thought it was hilarious and its now become something of a movement. Kind of like the Invisible Pink Unicorn. Or Intelligent Falling, which says that their religious belief is that gravity is actually G-d's hand pushing down on you and so they demand that this be taught as an alternate theory to gravity, since gravity is a theory.

I know Pastafarians well. I do feel a bit sorry for them, what with people taking it seriously nowadays.

As to that last bit, that's actually not that far from a real, still-existing belief that sin is what is keeping us from being able to fly around in the air and ascend to Heaven itself.

O_o Are they like that group that tried to kill themselves so that their spirits would go up and catch onto some comet that was supposedly actually a spaceship? They even got new shoes before they did it.

Nope, lol. If I'm not mistaken, they're just a continuation of an early explanation for why we don't just go floating off into space. Since we can't see gravity, and can't touch it, and can't taste it, they figure that there's no good reason to believe it actually exists and instead go with the old "scientists are agents of Satan" and say that it's just sin that weights us down. Which, I guess, would make pigeons holier than Jesus, technically, but whatever.

That's it. I've had an epiphany. I will now worship the clouds.

For they dost hover onuppan us meager men with such simplicity. Nay, naught in a tallst fashion, but that of G-ds! No Cloud hast ever sinned and thus they art able to achieve such lofty heights. Would but I could raise myself up with them and cherish in pure innocence. Oh Brethren, wilst Thou join me in my pious quest? Wither dost Thou travel? With beastes or among G-ds? Let us remove ourselves of these temptations and return to our Great Fluffy Fathers in yonder fullsome Heavens on-high!