Originally Posted by Hayzel

It's nice to know there are people like this still... Even here on Mene, it's hard for me to participate in a debate without getting called various derogatory names due some of my viewpoints. It's interesting how I get called names like 'nazi' because apparently I'm the racist one... >.> Anyways I'm often left on the defensive too, and it's very common for people to twist my words into meanings that don't even make sense to make me look bad. For the most part, once a debate or discussion starts turning for the worse I have to step away from it and then I get called more names even though I'm doing the mature thing. XD

Back on subject though, not loving a child due to their choice of partner is not a commonly held idea even among Christians. In fact many people say 'oh my parents would disown me' without actually posing the question. The truth is most parents will almost always love their kids, no matter what they do or what they're like.

You'd be surprised how often it does happen. I actually do know a few people that when they came out to their parents were thrown out of the house and disowned. The sad part is I KNOW their parents, have spent time around them and they're otherwise perfectly logical, lovely people. I was actually REALLY saddened when I'd heard what they'd done. But more to this specific case: the magistrate asked, and they said categorically that they would NOT love their adopted child as much if the child was homosexual, so I have to agree with the courts that it's not in a child's best interest to be put in an adoptive home where they might be treated differently. And that's in the UK, that doesn't even begin to delve into the serious problems facing the foster-care/adoption system in America.

Which, again...is straying from the point of the discussion. But, lacking any new participants who wish to discuss home schooling, I don't suppose there's any reason not to discuss whatever the topic happens to be.

Originally Posted by Hayzel

It's nice to know there are people like this still... Even here on Mene, it's hard for me to participate in a debate without getting called various derogatory names due some of my viewpoints. It's interesting how I get called names like 'nazi' because apparently I'm the racist one... >.> Anyways I'm often left on the defensive too, and it's very common for people to twist my words into meanings that don't even make sense to make me look bad. For the most part, once a debate or discussion starts turning for the worse I have to step away from it and then I get called more names even though I'm doing the mature thing. XD

Back on subject though, not loving a child due to their choice of partner is not a commonly held idea even among Christians. In fact many people say 'oh my parents would disown me' without actually posing the question. The truth is most parents will almost always love their kids, no matter what they do or what they're like.

I think I agree.
I hear too often "You stupid, dimwitted, narrow-minded name-caller!"

pffttalkvjsdcvhlawi

It's a bit hard for me to realize "not loving" a child because they come out as homosexual. I would agree with not condoning anything that one's child does, and not aiding them in it, but not loving them? That's another matter, entirely. People too often confuse the issue of differences with parents "not loving" their child if they don't let them do whatever they want. As I said before, I don't see children in my future but, if he were to "come out," I'd still love him. I wouldn't aid him in what I don't believe in, but he would still be my child and loved.

My own exp. with homeschooling/unschooling has been (and still is) the greatest learning period for me. For kindergarten to 9th grade and part of 10th grade I went to public school. I disliked it most of the time.

It was very boring and tedious. Learning useless facts from a textbook, doing hours of homework, studying for tests, etc. All for what? For those useless facts to disappear into oblivion during another school term or during summer. Stress and pressure added to this did not help either.

I had very few friends when I attended school. Most were not in the same age group (thus in different classes) and those that were either eventually moved away or were transfered to another school. The rest were the following: routine trouble makers who loved to annoy others and get in trouble frequently (in highschool a few of them were finally expelled after they broke into the school and stole stuff, a few others got sent to a boot camp); jocks who were really into sports (I never was interested in sports); air headed girls who loved gossip and watch all the most popular crap (such as twilight, friends, dawsons creek, etc.). I know it sounds as if I'm stereotyping the whole class but that's how it was.

Also it didn't matter how badly you did thruought the school year, as long as you pass the final test you went to the next grade. It really irked me to see the trouble makers and jocks fail and goof off and then pass the test whilst I worked hard on whatever homework/schoolwork I had only for it to be for nothing.

The lessons that were taught were often dull. I had to do everything in my power not to fall asleep. And what was taught was usually and easily forgotten.

There were a few exceptions though. There was the fun activities we did such as playing checkers in part of the Civil War classes. I enjoyed learning cursive. I loved the lessons in history and geography (my best subjects), and I esp. loved the way my highschool science teacher taught (the class at times could seem like Bill Nye The Science Guy on crack!). But as I said with the exception of those school ranged from a raging hell to a mindless, soul-less purgatory.

When I became homeschooled/unschooled (after years of trying to convince my parents to do so) my learning took off. With my newly found free time I read book upon book, did hours of research into favorite subjects, and watched educational television such as Discovery Channel and Link TV. I learned about the world outside of the US, a very new world for me which was not taught at school. I truely learned about politics and philosophy. I learned Latin/Greek roots and started studying languages such as Japanese, French, Middle English, Esperanto, etc.

I started looking at the subjects I once despised (math, chemistry, English) and learning them the way I wanted to. No grades, no excessive work, just learning them at my pace and in my way. I actually started to love those subjects!

For companionship I had my Boy Scout group (had more friends there than at school) and my online friends.

I'll post more in a bit.

Excellent. New person.

Sadly enough, this all kind of makes me think I needed this kind of education.

We took the like California Standard IQ test when I was in the third grade (yeah, the third grade) which would have been in...1991 I think, before individual states started really doing their own testing (throughout my elementary education we took the California End of Course exams) and I got placed in the Academically Gifted program, which meant that basically one day a week a snarky woman would come and try to give me MORE homework to do. And it was always boring like...mathy stuff, which doesn't interest me, and isn't my strength. My verbal skills are significantly higher than my math skills (I can't hold numbers in my head past about 3 digits. My numeric short-term memory is atrocious. My verbal memory is kind of scary sometimes.) So in addition to feeling like kind of a freak because I was the only one in the class, and the fact that I'd moved into an area where it takes a good decade before the people REALLY warm up to you, I was terribly bored by all of it.

I literally did as little homework as I could get away with throughout my education, until college when I actually started doing more work...sort of. My personal opinion was "homework is designed to help learn the material. What if I learned the material during class? I shouldn't have to do homework. I know the material. Don't believe me, test me." It doesn't help that my father has been a high school teacher my entire life, so I know EXACTLY how the system is designed to work, and where it's flaws are. If it was a class that interested me, I'd ace it. I'd maybe even do the homework, depending. But I have a voracious appetite for knowledge and information, so I was absorbing as much as I could even if I didn't look like I was listening. The internet has been one of my greatest advantages, because I will sometimes just look things up that I don't know just to learn them.

I'm one of those people who could skate by coming up with project ideas the morning they were due and still make solid B's on them without batting an eyelash. My transcript is littered with school semesters where my report cards would look like AAFA or ABFA right up until the EOCs, which I would breeze through because they're multiple choice and my memory is perfectly suited for it. I'd fail classes all year long because I didn't do homework and then I'd nail the tests and they CAN'T fail you if you pass the tests.

Unfortunately, my dad was a high school teacher my whole life, so home-schooling wasn't an option, even during the chunks of time when my mother was not working for one reason or another, because my mother has literally NO patience for me. It's not people...it's just me. She's worked the last ten years with the Employment Security Commission and I have to twist her arm to get her to LOOK at my resume to double-check it for me. But I've seen her spend a night with a friend of mine talking about getting a low-voltage electrical contracting business running. So...yeah. I begged my mom throughout my childhood to teach me how to program (she was, at the time, teaching Programming at the Community College...so it wasn't like I was asking her to teach me to build a boat) and never could get her to even attempt.

So I suppose that, given a child AND parents with the proper disposition, home-schooling can be an incredibly beneficial arrangement...it's kind of all about how you do it...and considering the continued overcrowding of the public school system...it seems like it's about the best way to guarantee that your child can get a GOOD, solid education without having to shell out the ridiculous costs for private schools. (teachers in NC make like 5000 a year above poverty level for the state, which is ABYSMAL, we're like 47th or 48th in the nation for teacher salaries.)

I do have a question though, which might sound kind of stupid. How does being home-schooled affect your chances of getting into college? Like, do home-school programs have some kind of "diploma system" that is recognized by major accredited universities?

Going to college depends primarily on which one you go to. Most community colleges will accept you as you are. For certain programs or going to other colleges you'll need a GED (general education/equivolency diploma) and in other cases also pass one or more of the following: SAT, ACT, GRE, etc.

I do have a question though, which might sound kind of stupid. How does being home-schooled affect your chances of getting into college? Like, do home-school programs have some kind of "diploma system" that is recognized by major accredited universities?

Now, I left homeschooling in high school because my mom didn't want to teach those subjects to me but I have friends who went through high school being home schooled so I know how it works.

There is a credit system that is actually harder than the public school credit system. You have to take the required subjects, and then there's a grade sheet required along with examples of a lot of stuff like completed tests. You have to do something called a portfolio every year(even in lower grades) to show that there is work being done throughout the year, and that's how the students earn credits. Then at the end of the year, you actually do earn your Diploma. Homeschooled Students can also register for the SAT or ACT just like any traditionally schooled student so when it comes to applications to college they're good to go. What's really cool about homeschooling though, is that many seniors graduate anywhere between 3 months and 2 years early and then attend a community college for college credit in classes. For the past 2 years I've been in a cyber school, and I love it. It's a tad more structured than homeschooling but it's still flexible and it gives me the next best thing since my mom no longer wishes to teach, and it's considered public school so I get all the perks of being able to access the facilities at my local public school.

As for Acobjum's comments I completely agree. While I never had the learning revelation because I started off being homeschooled, I started reading book after book at the age of seven, and while math has never been my strong suit, I was able to excel incredibly to the point I was in Geometry in 8th grade and now I'm out of math courses to take my senior year. But I'm planning on college next year to be a math teacher. I was in public school for one year and it was just monotonous and by the time I got home I was exhausted and I still had homework to do. Now, I'm usually done by noon and have the rest of the afternoon to do as I please. I usually find myself researching something online or borrowing small books on things like economics, logic, debate, etc. just to expand my own knowledge base. Homeschooling from my experience, lights a fire under your rump and makes you WANT to keep learning.

I'm actually going to agree with Hayzel when she said at the start that the OP's posts felt insulting, perhaps even sickeningly so. It's the ignorance people have for other kinds of lifestyle which causes strife, unhappiness, and the very desocialisation which the OP is criticising.

Originally Posted by Lorika

I'm actually going to agree with Hayzel when she said at the start that the OP's posts felt insulting, perhaps even sickeningly so. It's the ignorance people have for other kinds of lifestyle which causes strife, unhappiness, and the very desocialisation which the OP is criticising.

OP was looking at it from a behavioral psychology point of view. He wasn't being insulting, he just didn't know. Everything he'd heard about homeschooling was terrible, so he was prying and probing to find out what other people thought.

Originally Posted by quasievilgenius

See in some cases, like with child actors or the children of musicians, private tutoring is really the only feasible option, but that's not really what I'm trying to address in this particular instance, because then you're talking about a whole new kind of lifestyle overall. I'm not discrediting it as viable for discussion, but I will point out that predominantly I'm talking about the people who lead otherwise normal lives with the exception of the fact that they're home-schooled.

Well the girls are religious as am I. They've always been home schooled, however have extremely busy lives. They've always gone on missions trips, church activities, band stuff (the youngest was only 9 when they pursued their dream), etc. I don't think private tutoring was thought of since they were always home schooled. Prior to that they did lead relatively normal lives just like you talk about. They got plenty of interaction with other people.

However, my family could not afford fancy lessons and my church had very little of a youth group. I'd go to church and see the same 2 friends and then go home. Plus I loathed the way my mom set it up.. except for the shopping at noon part. Oh we loved that.

Originally Posted by quasievilgenius

Personally, I have issues with people who aren't willing to believe in evolution, but I'm also an academic and I'm fairly familiar with things like the archaeological record.

I've never believed in evolution....

----------

Originally Posted by monstahh`

OP was looking at it from a behavioral psychology point of view. He wasn't being insulting, he just didn't know. Everything he'd heard about homeschooling was terrible, so he was prying and probing to find out what other people thought.

Oh but home schooling can be done terribly. My mom did it absolutely terribly. It was better than public school to me as I was no longer being taunted relentlessly but it was really really boringly executed. Its why I only did it for a year.

To home school you either need am extremely active church, have a part time job, money for lessons or classes, or a home school group that meets more than once a month. I was 14 so I wasn't allowed a part time job and we had no extra money for ballet and our home school group met once a month and was 2 hours away. It sucked. All of the bad things about home schooling are true and do happen. But that's because some parents really don't know how to do it well or aren't willing to shell out the extra money to make sure their child gets everything they need.

Originally Posted by monstahh`

OP was looking at it from a behavioral psychology point of view. He wasn't being insulting, he just didn't know. Everything he'd heard about homeschooling was terrible, so he was prying and probing to find out what other people thought.

It just seems to me like someone taking their own, very thin scope of an issue and projecting it onto every single case of homeschooling. I think it's good that he's trying to learn more, but... I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I usually appreciate when my experiences with something are limited and know without asking that not all cases are the way I've seen them to be.

I certainly wouldn't go ahead and make a long argument based on such a closed point of view, and I don't consider it very well thought-out or professional and certainly not something to be expected from an anthropology student. Not trying to be mean, just saying why it rubbed me up the wrong way.

Originally Posted by Lorika

It just seems to me like someone taking their own, very thin scope of an issue and projecting it onto every single case of homeschooling. I think it's good that he's trying to learn more, but... I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I usually appreciate when my experiences with something are limited and know without asking that not all cases are the way I've seen them to be.

I certainly wouldn't go ahead and make a long argument based on such a closed point of view, and I don't consider it very well thought-out or professional and certainly not something to be expected from an anthropology student. Not trying to be mean, just saying why it rubbed me up the wrong way.

Not really, please note the "I believe" statements. He was opening them up for discussion by bringing them up, because his view isn't the only view, and many people see homeschooling in a similar light. It was not to insult or berate people.

I'm not saying that this is unanimously the case, because it's not, but in my personal experience, the people I've met who have been home-schooled have been at a SERIOUS social and emotional disadvantage when they are released into the population (often during high school, which is the WORST time to introduce a young mind to an entire world of new stimuli.)

And then he backs that up with behavioral psychology--it's not unfounded or unreasonable to think that kids who are home schooled might be a little bit socially deprived, because as Pixie said... it happens! It's not unheard of.

I know a family who home schooled all three of their boys. It was very very sad. They did not know basic public etiquette at all. They were loud and very obnoxious and academically were well below average. I've seen home schooling work for some and fail for same, including myself. Its very sad how kids are home schooled to keep from certain information. I was home schooled because public school just wasn't working. I couldn't tolerate any more taunting and harassing. Also, my public school doesn't know how to teach kids with learning disabilities...

Its very sad how kids are home schooled to keep from certain information.

This can be interpreted in different ways. True, kids shouldn't be "kept from" the answers to the questions they ask, but that doesn't mean a parent should be loose with what they teach their kids.

Originally Posted by Lorika

It just seems to me like someone taking their own, very thin scope of an issue and projecting it onto every single case of homeschooling. I think it's good that he's trying to learn more, but... I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I usually appreciate when my experiences with something are limited and know without asking that not all cases are the way I've seen them to be.

I certainly wouldn't go ahead and make a long argument based on such a closed point of view, and I don't consider it very well thought-out or professional and certainly not something to be expected from an anthropology student. Not trying to be mean, just saying why it rubbed me up the wrong way.

Okay, I'm going to be perfectly honest here, it seems to me as though you read a small portion of my original post, disagreed, skimmed and found someone who disagreed with me so you could add your banner to theirs, and started making personal attacks, completely ignoring the fact that my position has changed over the course of this discussion as new information has been brought to my attention.

If you'd read the full length and breadth of this discussion as it has been shaped since that original post, you will see that I have merely voiced my opinion and beliefs, and then ASKED for people to talk to me about their experiences, have asked specific questions that I feel are relevant to what I'm asking of people who know better than I do, and have done so as respectfully as possible, in a sincere effort to learn more.

And as for my argument being "closed minded and unprofessional" I cited a VERY HIGHLY respected developmental psychology model to back up my reasons for feeling as I did initially, based on the information I had. This is PRECISELY the way an anthropological project abstract or proposal is written: to determine a hypothesis, to cite accredited sources to support that hypothesis, and then to test the hypothesis through active and/or passive observation dependent upon the needs of the project and arrive at the conclusion that A) my hypothesis was wrong, B) my hypothesis was correct, C) my hypothesis is close but needs revision, or D) my current experimentation has proved inconclusive and further observation/testing needs to be done.

I would go so far as to ask the other members of this discussion if they believe that I have been disrespectful or rude during the course of this debate. If I have, then I offer my sincere apologies now, as this was not my intention in the slightest.

If you would like to join this discussion and help dissolve the shroud of ignorance, then by all means you are welcome to share your experiences and opinions on the matter at hand. If your sole contribution to this discussion is to attack my character, however, then I will kindly ask you to leave.

You have every right to hate school - because forced education sucks This is a very good site to visit. It has many articles and discussions concerning the problems with school and the alternatives that are out there.

Originally Posted by Lorika

Not trying to be mean, just saying why it rubbed me up the wrong way.

I usually flag my post with "I haven't read the whole thing, but..." when I haven't read the whole thing. I did read the whole thing, and the attitude of quasievilgenius' posts bothered me throughout.

I'm sorry that my criticism of quasi's approach to learning more about homeschooling bothered him so much. Perhaps it was in poor judgement for me to post my opinion in the first place, but as this is a free forum I don't think there's a problem with posting all kinds of opinions, even negative ones.

Anyway, since quasievilgenius has replied with criticism of my own character, I suppose we're even. ^^ It has, however, unfortunately reinforced my opinion that the person in question is ignorant and more than a little egotistical, and I'm not interested in debating with "someone like that." Therefore, I will graciously accept their kind invitation to leave, and leave a simple question in my wake: u mad?

U mad? Weird question...:lol: Being mad honestly has nothing to do with the debate. but that's just me.

Anyways, my older sister was homeschooled through high school. I would have to talk to her to get a better idea of what she went through, but I do know that she had wide education opportunities (She could study whatever she wanted, so she concentrated on the sciences and English stuff) which did cause problems when she hit college because she never learned math. She's not good at math though, so she may have ended up in the same place anyways. Even though we were poor (my dad was a chiropractor, but he did one of the more unorthodox schools and we also lived in a somewhat rural community, so we got a lot of trades instead of payment sometimes) my Mom would ask if they had scholarships for activities, so she was able to be in dance classes, painting, participate in plays, all types of sports and maybe some other things I don't know about. She hung out with kids her own age in high school, usually doing Live Action Role Playing (or LARP) with them. So she was fairly well socialised and she learned a lot. Now she's back in college, and her main problem is math.

Sorry this post is so long! Anyways, I don't know what SHE would say about homeschooling, but I don't know if she'd regret it or not. Certainly she missed out on a lot of the teasing that I encountered. And she did get to learn what she wanted. But I can't say for sure, since I'm not her.

I suppose that's sort of one of the pitfalls of the system, is that if there isn't some kind of directly mandated curriculum from somewhere and the student is able to choose all their own courses of study...you leave the potential for people to just...decide not to study things they don't like (I'd have never bothered with math if I could have gotten away with it, either.)

Yeah, but now she wants to go into neurobiology so she HAS to. Luckily she has a math genius for a boyfriend, so it's worked out pretty well for her.

assuming of course he's tutoring her, not "dotoring" her.

It doesn't work in type near as well as out loud. "Do-toring." As in doing her math work for her.

neurobiology? That's a hell of a thing to decide to want to go into with a negligible math background...yeah its a good thing her bf is a math whiz.

Originally Posted by quasievilgenius

I suppose that's sort of one of the pitfalls of the system, is that if there isn't some kind of directly mandated curriculum from somewhere and the student is able to choose all their own courses of study...you leave the potential for people to just...decide not to study things they don't like (I'd have never bothered with math if I could have gotten away with it, either.)

Yup, if I had the choice I would have never continued with math. Unfortunately the home school program I was in demanded that we covered all the main subjects, including gym (which all we did was take a picture of me on my bike and called it good) and art (we made a photo album which I filled with all my pics from summer camp).

Now, in 10th grade our art teacher at my private school was made the accounting teacher. The school gave me the choice of whether I wanted to continue algebra or join a class with peers in it. It made me feel smart that I could join a class with my peers so I joined the class. It was absolutely the worst choice I've ever made in regards to education. My 10th and 11th grade year I took accounting and consumer math which did little to prepare me for college. However at the time I was trade school bound and not college bound. I changed my mind senior year..

I don't regret private school through. It undid most of the damage that public school caused to my education. Had I had more activities and freedom in home school I probably would have continued with that. Home school would have caused more damage to my math disability (Turner's Syndrome can cause math and science disabilities which only means it takes much much longer for me to grasp certain concepts if at all.) since my parents cannot teach me those subjects.

Math is lame.

Yeah I got to senior year of high school and had completed my math requirements (all our school requires was math through Algebra 2 or three years of math. Since I did Algebra 1 in high school, I had to take Algebra 3/Trig to fulfill the three maths requirement) and my advisor tried to get me to take Calculus, to which I responded "I'm going to college for ACTING. I DON'T need calculus, and the requirements clearly state that I only have to take 3 maths. I did that. I'm not taking another math."

I was always the "way too well-informed for my own good" student. I knew the rules inside and out. Like dress code regarding hats. A teacher asked me to take my hat off at 7:50. I replied "the student rulebook dress code SAYS: hats are not to be worn DURING SCHOOL HOURS. School hours begin at 8:05. When the bell rings, I'll take my hat off." She dragged me around everywhere trying to find a rulebook (it wasn't actually listed in the rulebook, it was listed on a dress-code addendum sheet inserted INTO the rulebook, as the rulebook said NOTHING whatever about hats) and by the time she'd found a book and realized she NOW had to find some other sheet...the bell was ringing, I took my hat off and said "okay I'm going to class now bye."

Alright a few nitpicky things: Statistics can be swayed and actually made up. No way could all homeschool sutdents be surveyed in order to create those stats so i don't think they should even be used. After cutting out the stats, I didn't see much argument there.

Anther thing: Sickle cell anemia gives a person resistance to malaria. That resistance allowed the people with sickle cell to survive malaria attacks even if they died from it...people with Sickle Cell Trait have a bit of both worlds in regards to that.

Lorika, take a deep breath and chill

momochan: She is home schooled...ask her!

Alight so I know many people who have been home schooled and they've mostly been on homebound instruction programs by their school districts as they've been too sick to go to school. While many have learned more being on such instruction, they were lonely. Some school systems allow homeschooled and homebound and online instructed students to participate in their extra curricular activities which I wholeheartedly support. I think being able to be with one's peers, in both religious and secular settings is very important for their social growth.

My friend and I were teased and assaulted in our public schools. I went to private school and flourished; I liked for the most part my Roman Catholic curriculum and I loved the structure. I loved being able to leave my house and my parents and be with other girls (I went to a same sex school) and do the activities I did. My friend switched to homeschooling. She had a so-so curriculum but avoided math and when she went to magnet school, had to REPEAT several years of math whereas I was actually ahead by a grade or two. Her parents didn't have higher education and many subjects they had to actually learn themselves in order to teach them to her.

Another friend of mine was labeled gifted/talented and she really was...public school was boring for her and so she switched to homeschooling. At least one of her parents finished college and for high school she got her GED and began college at the age of 16 and got AP credits and everything. Homeschooling worked well for her and she had friends from where she worked and from her community college but she did get lonely and felt separated from peers her age...but her intelligence separated her too.

From a disability/chronic illness standpoint, doing online school and/or going part time with a tutor does the best for my other chronically ill friends who wouldn't have gotten an education otherwise. Some of my friends have done AP courses with tutors and other supportive measures which they'd never be able to do if they were forced to go to school...they'd wind up too sick. These people I know felt isolated just because they were in general too ill to see anyone and their previous friends all left them and forgot about them.

why was a pinged?! I was in the middle of something! D:<