Well I've yet to see a Democrat do any good ever. And you can't blame Bush for the situation we're in right now completely. Everyone who's been in office in my lifetime has sucked like a vacuum in overdrive.

One of the major problems with the British "conservative" party is that... they're not. I mean not really. They tend to put forth controlling policies which are well... not politically conservative.

I'm extremely politically conservative, which is why I think gay marriage should be legal, and the government should keep themselves out of my business.

Originally Posted by sarofset

Well I've yet to see a Democrat do any good ever.

Seriously? Here's a small list of what Clinton did while in office.

• Longest economic expansion in American history
  The President’s strategy of fiscal discipline, open foreign markets and investments in the American people helped create the conditions for a record 115 months of economic expansion. Our economy has grown at an average of 4 percent per year since 1993.
• More than 22 million new jobs
  More than 22 million jobs were created in less than eight years -- the most ever under a single administration, and more than were created in the previous twelve years.
• Highest homeownership in American history
  A strong economy and fiscal discipline kept interest rates low, making it possible for more families to buy homes. The homeownership rate increased from 64.2 percent in 1992 to 67. 7 percent, the highest rate ever.
• Lowest unemployment in 30 years
  Unemployment dropped from more than 7 percent in 1993 to just 4.0 percent in November 2000. Unemployment for African Americans and Hispanics fell to the lowest rates on record, and the rate for women is the lowest in more than 40 years.
• Raised education standards, increased school choice, and doubled education and training investment
  Since 1992, reading and math scores have increased for 4th, 8th, and 12th graders, math SAT scores are at a 30-year high, the number of charter schools has grown from 1 to more than 2,000, forty-nine states have put in place standards in core subjects and federal investment in education and training has doubled.
• Largest expansion of college opportunity since the GI Bill
  President Clinton and Vice President Gore have nearly doubled financial aid for students by increasing Pell Grants to the largest award ever, expanding Federal Work-Study to allow 1 million students to work their way through college, and by creating new tax credits and scholarships such as Lifetime Learning tax credits and the HOPE scholarship. At the same time, taxpayers have saved $18 billion due to the decline in student loan defaults, increased collections and savings from the direct student loan program.
• Connected 95 percent of schools to the Internet
  President Clinton and Vice President Gore’s new commitment to education technology, including the E-Rate and a 3,000 percent increase in educational technology funding, increased the percentage of schools connected to the Internet from 35 percent in 1994 to 95 percent in 1999.
• Lowest crime rate in 26 years
  Because of President Clinton’s comprehensive anti-crime strategy of tough penalties, more police, and smart prevention, as well as common sense gun safety laws, the overall crime rate declined for 8 consecutive years, the longest continuous drop on record, and is at the lowest level since 1973.
• 100,000 more police for our streets
  As part of the 1994 Crime Bill, President Clinton enacted a new initiative to fund 100,000 community police officers. To date more than 11,000 law enforcement agencies have received COPS funding.
• Enacted most sweeping gun safety legislation in a generation
  Since the President signed the Brady bill in 1993, more than 600,000 felons, fugitives, and other prohibited persons have been stopped from buying guns. Gun crime has declined 40 percent since 1992.
• Family and Medical Leave Act for 20 million Americans
  To help parents succeed at work and at home, President Clinton signed the Family and Medical Leave Act in 1993. Over 20 million Americans have taken unpaid leave to care for a newborn child or sick family member.
• Smallest welfare rolls in 32 years
  The President pledged to end welfare as we know it and signed landmark bipartisan welfare reform legislation in 1996. Since then, caseloads have been cut in half, to the lowest level since 1968, and millions of parents have joined the workforce. People on welfare today are five times more likely to be working than in 1992.
• Higher incomes at all levels
  After falling by nearly $2,000 between 1988 and 1992, the median family’s income rose by $6,338, after adjusting for inflation, since 1993. African American family income increased even more, rising by nearly $7,000 since 1993. After years of stagnant income growth among average and lower income families, all income brackets experienced double-digit growth since 1993. The bottom 20 percent saw the largest income growth at 16.3 percent.
• Lowest poverty rate in 20 years
  Since Congress passed President Clinton’s Economic Plan in 1993, the poverty rate declined from 15.1 percent to 11.8 percent last year — the largest six-year drop in poverty in nearly 30 years. There are now 7 million fewer people in poverty than in 1993. The child poverty rate declined more than 25 percent, the poverty rates for single mothers, African Americans and the elderly have dropped to their lowest levels on record, and Hispanic poverty dropped to its lowest level since 1979.
• Lowest teen birth rate in 60 years
  In his 1995 State of the Union Address, President Clinton challenged Americans to join together in a national campaign against teen pregnancy. The birth rate for teens aged 15-19 declined every year of the Clinton Presidency, from 60.7 per 1,000 teens in 1992 to a record low of 49.6 in 1999.
• Lowest infant mortality rate in American history
  The Clinton Administration expanded efforts to provide mothers and newborn children with health care. Today, a record high 82 percent of all mothers receive prenatal care. The infant mortality rate has dropped from 8.5 deaths per 1,000 in 1992 to 7.2 deaths per 1,000 in 1998, the lowest rate ever recorded.
• Deactivated more than 1,700 nuclear warheads from the former Soviet Union
  Efforts of the Clinton-Gore Administration led to the dismantling of more than 1,700 nuclear warheads, 300 launchers and 425 land and submarine based missiles from the former Soviet Union.
• Protected millions of acres of American land
  President Clinton has protected more land in the lower 48 states than any other president. He has protected 5 new national parks, designated 11 new national monuments and expanded two others and proposed protections for 60 million acres of roadless areas in America’s national forests.
• Paid off $360 billion of the national debt
  Between 1998-2000, the national debt was reduced by $363 billion — the largest three-year debt pay-down in American history. We WOULD HAVE BEEN on track to pay off the entire debt by 2009 had we not been "Bush-wacked".
• Converted the largest budget deficit in American history to the largest surplus
  Thanks in large part to the 1993 Deficit Reduction Act, the 1997 Balanced Budget Act, and President Clinton’s call to save the surplus for debt reduction, Social Security, and Medicare solvency, America has put its fiscal house in order. The deficit was $290 billion in 1993 and expected to grow to $455 billion by this year. Instead, we have a projected surplus of $237 billion.
• Lowest government spending in three decades
  Under President Clinton federal government spending as a share of the economy has decreased from 22.2 percent in 1992 to a projected 18.5 percent in 2000, the lowest since 1966.
• Lowest federal income tax burden in 35 years
  President Clinton enacted targeted tax cuts such as the Earned Income Tax Credit expansion, $500 child tax credit, and the HOPE Scholarship and Lifetime Learning Tax Credits. Federal income taxes as a percentage of income for the typical American family have dropped to their lowest level in 35 years.
• More families own stock than ever before
  The number of families owning stock in the United States increased by 40 percent since 1992.
• Most diverse cabinet in American history
  The President has appointed more African Americans, women and Hispanics to the Cabinet than any other President in history. He appointed the first female Attorney General, the first female Secretary of State and the first Asian American cabinet secretary ever.

Source ( http://clinton5.nara.gov/WH/Accompli...tyears-01.html )

Originally Posted by sarofset

I'm extremely politically conservative, which is why I think gay marriage should be legal, and the government should keep themselves out of my business.

Do you mean illegal? This makes no sense. Conservatives typically are against gay marriage.

No. actually, anyone who's actually conservative wouldn't think the government should have any business telling you who to marry.

Conservatives like libertarians want less government control. That's all that means really.

and as for what liberals have done recently... U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time

Let's just look historically here, shall we? :lol:
National debt by U.S. presidential terms.
Republicans have been wiping their asses with taxpayer money since Nixon first took office.

Obama's stats aren't shown, but I know the debt has gone up since he's been in office. I'd be interested to see by just how much, though. I guarantee it isn't a 20% increase like Bush gave us, though.

um dude.

Bush Deficit vs. Obama Deficit in Pictures | The Foundry

Obama is a debt machine. Seriously.

I don't think I have enough physical power to fatally bash my head into the concrete after reading your posts.
Brian Riedl is a conservative who theorizes his data instead of actually analyzing empirical evidence.

You can't argue a point when you can't agree on facts.

Point one: That has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

Point two: If you agree on "facts" then there is by definition no argument.

...did you go back in time to 2008 or something? No one cares about Obama anymore. At least, in the circles I run in, his name is paired with rolling eyes, frowns, or sighs of "If only I'd known...I wouldn't have voted for him." But all my friends are liberal/progressive. I have no idea what moderates and conservs think.

Personally, I think he's a cool guy, smart, and knows how to talk to people. But he has turned out to be a huge disappointment. When he tries to be nonpartisan it's even worse.

SIGH.

He's not a bad person, just not a good leader. I'd have a drink with the man, but I don't think he's the savior of the universe like so many still do.

And by the way, I'm in Colorado... pretty much mostly democrats my age, and they act like they're in a freaking cult or something. O.o It's kinda freaky.

Well, as I happened to live in california at the times of election, I was very much in the middle of it (though I'm not american, and therefore could not vote), but would have voted for Obama. Just the thought of someone like Palin in power (country of Africa anyone?) is seriously scary.

Yeah, Obama is young and inexperienced, but McCain is old. It's the young who form the future, while the old are 'set' in their ways. I'm not saying McCain would have been bad as president, but I honestly think someone new and fresh is better. And Obama had a lot of really good ideas, such as his healtcare reform! One of my friends in america broke his finger, but refused to go to the hospital cause he didn't have insurance, and wouldn't be able to pay the bill. I think it's completely grotesque that something that serious is left uncared for, simply because of money issues.
Also, so many americans I met expected Obama to just magically fix the economy overnight. seriously? He was left with a huge pile of steaming sh*t, that's gonna take at least a decade to fix. And republicans hindering him in any way they can. I'm not saying he couldn't have done a bit more, and I don't believe him to be the Messiah or bringer of all good things, but he is definitely better than the opposition.

Thing is he hasn't tried to fix the debt, he's just made it worse at every turn.

Bush Deficit vs. Obama Deficit in Pictures | The Foundry

And socialized medicine is a bad Idea... in fact... in Canada, (the country they keep saying we should base ours on) they declared it a human rites violation because the care was so poor and the wait times so long.

Chaoulli v. Quebec (Attorney General) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Socialism doesn't work... except in Germany, but they're magic or something. Has to do with their attitudes about family and work ethic.

uhhhm. healthcare works fairly well in most of Europe. I live in Denmark now, and I don't pay (directly. I do pay through taxes ;) ) to go to the doctors office, or the hospital, should I need to. I think access to medical care should be a human right, regardless if one has insurance or the money to. It works great here, so I don't see a reason for it not to work in America. And it's not like america is a third world country or anything..

Socialized medicine can work if your society has the correct attitudes, and isn't composed mainly of lazy morons who do not wish to have to work for anything. And by the way, we have free health care here. The clinics are great, and can do most anything for free if you need them to. They'll even give you prescription drugs. And you can get free food from food banks. No one's rites are infringed.

I believe insurance should be abolished all together. It's the very reason that the costs are so high.

Originally Posted by sarofset

Socialized medicine can work if your society has the correct attitudes, and isn't composed mainly of lazy morons who do not wish to have to work for anything. And by the way, we have free health care here. The clinics are great, and can do most anything for free if you need them to. They'll even give you prescription drugs. And you can get free food from food banks. No one's rites are infringed.

I believe insurance should be abolished all together. It's the very reason that the costs are so high.

You're not talking about the United States, right?

I am actually. And being someone who hasn't had money in years I'd know.

Maybe all states are not as good, but Colorado has good free clinics to go to. Not sure about Missouri. A lot of states have them though, and trust me they're clean, safe, and efficient. The only trouble you get is with addicts who show up looking for pain meds.

the problem is, you have people who are deliberately mislead by news stations. They aren't stupid, they are just lied to by what should be reliable sources.

For one example; some democratic politician a bit ago was claiming that thanks to Obama, we have a massive increase in jobs. When called out on the fact that unemployment has gone up by .1% since Obama took office he got upset and started pretending that number didn't matter.

Fact is, politicians can, and will spin anything to look good for themselves regardless of what the truth is and who is hurt. And I do mean politicians not just one side or the other.

That fact is why I do not belong to any party. They're really both just about the same. Not to mention both evil. Politicians are evil.

Originally Posted by Anaxilea

Let's just look historically here, shall we? :lol:
National debt by U.S. presidential terms.
Republicans have been wiping their asses with taxpayer money since Nixon first took office.

Obama's stats aren't shown, but I know the debt has gone up since he's been in office. I'd be interested to see by just how much, though. I guarantee it isn't a 20% increase like Bush gave us, though.

Well first the graph is incomplete; it starts off 17 terms ago; what did we just not keep records before then?

Secondly if you look at the senate and congress it almost looks like democrats may have been trying to sabotage republican presidents. The most severe spikes in deficit occur when its a republican president fighting a democratic majority in both the senate and congress.

My point is though, numbers can be forced to look like anything. Yeah if you read it one way it does look like you can blame republicans because they had presidents during times of debt, but then again, thanks to checks and balances president can't really control much if he's alone against both other branches.

Another thing I've noticed is that my left wing friends say that Obama "can't fix things because the Republicans won't let him." I find this hilarious since they had an uncontestable majority in the house and senate for the first part of Obama's term.

yeah, they blamed 'filibustering' and called republicans horrible horrible people for doing it, though in reality the only way a filibuster works is if too many people leave before the speaker can't continue talking. it's basically your ability to sit and listen (Passive) vs someone else's ability to stand and talk (Active). Either Democrats in office at the time were wimps, or they just wanted things to go the way they did and blame republicans for it.

Then they turned around and ran away at one point because if they stayed for the vote they would have lost the vote (needed X number of yes votes which were had, but they needed larger number of people to at least make a vote). That isn't even DEMOCRACY, put bluntly they literally denied us our right to democracy because they decided that what the majority wanted was wrong in their opinion. I find it appalling that they can get away with that no matter what the topic is. (really, for leaving the state and refusing to come back I believe their votes should have counted as 'abstain' and allowed the issue to be voted on by the remaining politicians)

Yes the government of, by and for the people should not tell them they are wrong about what's best for them. It's not what our country is supposed to be about.

George Washington: Don't create political parties. They suck. It's a bad idea

Derp Herp

Obama, being a Democrat and having a distinct rallying point against the Republicans is not something they appreciate. Congress, being lined near entirely with Republicans, is now doing their best to tie his hands and make him look like a complete idiot. They don't want him to have a second term, and apparently jeopardizing the nation is within their boundaries to have him removed.

Keep your bug-out bags well stocked, ladies and gentlemen, because we might be in for one hell of a ride.

If that's the case, why did he do most of his damage before the republicans had any power? He had the senate and house majority on his side. He did nothing useful. He screwed us on the debt, and didn't fulfill any of his promises. I'm very much not impressed.

The debt that's coming due now? You mean all the debt that Bush accrued? None of the debt Obama created is due yet. Bush borrowed fistfuls of money and skewed our interest rates to make it harder to pay it all back. Now Obama has to figure out how to pay it back without sending us under. No pressure, though. Obama isn't a great job of fixing it, but he isn't the one who got us knee deep in the first place either. He's sure not the best president in the world, I'll agree with you. He wasn't exactly given a whole lot to work with, though. As I opened with my first statement I obviously think poorly of the system of political parties. It turns presidential elections into a high school prom queen popularity contest.

Um actually, he more than tripled our debt, and national debt doesn't "come due" it's not that kind of debt. WE almost reached our legal limit of the amount of debt we are allowed to have. That's a different thing altogether.

As for everyone blaming Bush for everything. If you look at his policies he was a socialist dictator, so... don't blame the republicans. He wasn't one. Not really. I mean I can claim I'm a banana, but that doesn't make it true.