If there has, indeed, been a case in the US of a student punished for praying, as an individual, in school, I would most like to see it. Otherwise, the entire "debate" is a strawman argument, and it isn't the first time I've seen it. I used to go to religious ed classes. There was one class that mentioned the school prayer controversy. We were elementary-aged kids, and it wasn't explained that "prayer in school" meant that the school was running the praying. I, at least, felt vaguely led to believe that it would be against the rules to put your hands together mechanically for a minute or so before eating lunch. But, that's not really what the issue is about, is it?

For determining how to rule on church/state issues, we have the Lemon Test, from the supreme court case Lemon v. Kurtzman. It includes three questions: is there no secular purpose for the action? does it inhibit or promote religion? does it create excessive entanglement between the church and state? An affirmative response to any of these questions is enough to deem an action unconstitutional. School-run prayer is then pretty obviously unconstitutional.

This hypothetical case of a teacher punishing a student for individual prayer is also unconstitutional. The student is acting privately, so teacher interference is intended to stop one form of religious opinion, its effect is to intimidate, probably the entirety of the class, and it's pretty clear there's no secular purpose. Now, if a student goes to the floor, and starts chanting or dancing or speaking in tongues, there's a pretty legitimate secular purpose for telling the student to stop, and any reasonable observer would see the purpose, and conclude that the inhibition of religion is not the matter.

Originally Posted by Angel Naomi

If teachers are punishing students for praying before a test, they must be Atheist or anal, not the school. I guess it all depends on the teacher. School systems, the government, the justice system, everything is messed up now-a-days =\

I think I should point out here, it's incredibly unlikely that an atheist would support, or even tolerate, the hypothetical action in question here. Lacking a belief in a god does not compel a person to try to control other people's thoughts.

Originally Posted by gamefreak1993

i may not believe in god,
but i believe it is wrong to punish a student for praying before a test. they say that since its a public school ur not allowed to pray.

do u think its fair or unjust?

Haha, kids getting in trouble for praying in school?

That is punishable by law, first off it is breaking the first amendment which can easily get the school principle/ board in big trouble. Punishing a child for there religion is abnormal. And it is breaking the students rights.

The first amendment gives rights to assembly, speech, religion, yada. And these cases HAVE been brought to the supreme court before. And the supreme court have come to the conclusion many times before. "Their is nothing wrong with a student praying in school." But they said they can't make everyone pray, because it is their beliefs. And it is their rights.

So, a student can't legally get punished by it. Inless they want to get in trouble for breaking a students rights.

Has anyone actually been punished at school for praying?

If so that is a violation of their rights.

lmao, I pray before tests

I do it discreetly though cause I don't want to be embarrassed.
I'm not sure if it is not allowed in my school or not.

It is allowed just fine. The only thing that isn't allowed is faculty-directed prayer.

Freedom of religion.

As long as they're not forcing anyone else to pray, it's not wrong. It's about as bad as bringing a lucky charm in the hopes that it'll increase your luck.

okay, when I first read the first post, I had WTF running through my head, mind you I know we shouldn't use AIM terms unless we're in an actual chatroom, but I couldn't contain myself, heh. Well, enough with my rambling, I'll share my views. :3

I believe that praying is just a religious practice, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. If you're going to punish a student for practicing their religion, then you are not respecting their religious views. I know many people do not care and are racist, insensitive, the works, but there is no reason one should be given punishment for practicing their beliefs publicly.

I have prayed in resturants before, those are public areas.

If praying in a school is wrong, then praying in any public area is wrong. Therefore, I should have been booted out of that restaurant before I could even have finished my prayer with an 'amen'. I believe the punishment was just either bias or prejudice, both of which disappoint me. D :

By the way, no one has posted an article of this... I am seriously doubting it all.

This seems a bit silly - and leaning towards dictatorship. Who are they to say you can't pray quietly inside your mind just before an exam? Maybe if they had made a little altar or something and conducted a little ceremony in the middle of it that would be wrong, but it's not like they're standing on the desk and preaching. I'm all for religion/state seperation but thats no reason to tell people what they can and can't think.

Originally Posted by gamefreak1993

i may not believe in god,
but i believe it is wrong to punish a student for praying before a test. they say that since its a public school ur not allowed to pray.

do u think its fair or unjust?

What school would DO that? Punish a student for praying. That's infringing on the students rights, according to one of the amendments...

It's supposedly wrong for the TEACHER to pray, or tell students that it's time to pray would be even worse... but for a STUDENT to be PUNISHED is wrong. It's against the law, even, and if they went to court [if they would even want to spend the time and money] the student would win the case. =)

They shouldn't be picking out individual kids for praying. I think the law's there to prohibit, for example, a teacher forcing all kids to pray, regardless of each student's religious beliefs.

To keep students from praying before a test is simply ridiculas. They are not doing any of the class by praying to themselves. Odds are they aren't asking the rest of the class to join them in prayer, so I don't see how it could be offensive to anyone.

My school doesn't have a problem with prayer before tests, although I've never seen anyone do it during class. I know right before the AP tests we would have a joined prayer and a student from our class spoke for everybody. I personally am not very religious but I had nothing against standing with my class for one prayer before the big test we had been dreading all year. The student did a good job and didn't say anything that I would disagree with so I didn't have a problem.

People are really too scared of offending everyone else. As long as no one is forcing you to do something you don't believe in, than I don't see what the problem is.

Edit: I have had a teacher tell us that if we didn't study we should be looking for divine intervention. But he was a pretty weird exchange teacher. :/

Though yes it should be wrong for TEACHERS to practice their religion or teach it to the students there should be nothing wrong with students teaching their religion to someone who wants to listen.

As for praying, what gives someone the right to say "God isn't allowed to help you with this test"? Thats just... rude. Even if they prayed "Please god give me all the answers" It's not like they'd be cheating or something.

Clearly any student (or any person, for that matter) should be allowed to call upon his or her god any time he or she feels it is worthwhile or necessary. I don't think any one is debating that. The real issue is: what if that praying distracts other students or hinders someone's learning?

Should a student be allowed to leave a classroom to kneel when they pray? Should they kneel while in the room?

What if the religion calls for prayer with volume? Is a student allowed to audibly pray?

If a prayer is distracting in the classroom, I think it would be best for the student to pray outside the classroom before the test begins, during a 5 minute "get to your next class" period in the hallway, outside during lunch, etc. Anything that distracts during the test - whether based in religion or not - should not be allowed.

But if you're just praying silently during the test? I don't see any problem with that.

I think punishing someone for praying at a public school is ridiculous. I mean, people should be allowed to believe in what they want and therefore pray for what they want. As long as the person isn't trying to force others to believe in their religion or anything, I don't see it as a problem.

I think students should pray silently in their heads before a test, rather than doing it overtly. That's what I used to do in school, and it was never a problem for me.

The separation of church and state ideals are baloney, seeing as the current legal system was based on Christian morals... Thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not commit adultery, etc. Removing "under God" from the pledge of allegiance may be a small start to the break down of the governmental system in the long run...

But I digress, prayer in the classroom among students should be completely fine. Even if it's a few friends in class who go to church together, they should be fully allowed to pray with each other. In fact, I believe the teacher should be allowed to pray for the success of her students. Pushing prayer onto the students is a bad idea, though.

For a public school, I think it's inappropriate to have the teacher lead a prayer. But, I think if the student or teacher wants to have their own personal prayer, they should be allowed to.

It's extremely unfair to punish a student for praying before a test. What harm is it going to do? Not like they're praying that the test will get delayed or anything bad. It wasn't even a disturbance, and people should be allowed to practice any religion.

I know you can get out of watching a movie in a public school if you have a parent make a note saying something like "It's against our religion to watch movies like this, I will not let my child be involved in watching the movie", so why is it so wrong for a child to pray before a test?

I didn't read every bodies posts so I am very sorry but I think it's very ironic how a student was punished for praying before a test when a few years back I believe a student was punished for not wanting to say "under god" in the pledge of allegiance.

I think that everybody should be allowed their own prayers wherever and whenever as long as it doesn't disrupt others. If a student is praying out loud then I think a teacher has a right to ask them nicely to do it silently or to finish it right outside the classroom. Of course there will be people who make a big deal about that as well but they are horrible horrible people. well not really but they could consider that they were being disruptive about it.

I believe that the student should have been allowed to pray in school. It is part of their culture to pray and you cannot stop that from them because of religious freedom. I mean if the kid was gathering everyone to pray with him then its an issue but I'm guessing he isn't. As long as he's keeping it to himself, its okay.

They re trying to separate church and state, but I think that's going a little too far.

If a kid was praying and not disrupting the class, He should be allowed to pray.

Originally Posted by SaiyukiCosplayer

I don't think it's very fair.

But the school would have a reason....the Separation of Church and State law....that's why schools are starting to crack down and pull "Under God" out of the Pledge of Allegiance. It bring religion into the classroom, which is illegal. It makes sense, but at the same time, it's sorta stupid. I mean, it's only the Holy Trinity religions that it's towards, because the government assumes that everyone else must follow the same belief or something....What hurts the most is the fact that I'm a Catholic Taoist (which IS possible. Taoism isn't a religion, but another way of living and viewing the world), and I've had to stick up for a Mormon because she prayed before the finals and the teacher tried to give her detention for it. I have a bad reputation with the teachers for sticking up for what I know is right....@.@ But it wasn't right. Yeah, it's "breaking the law" but it's a stupid law!

I think praying before a test should be allowed, as long as sermons don't become part of the school curriculum.

I don't want to burst any bubbles or start an argument but.... There is no such law. The real reading of the amendment says:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. "

And what the founding fathers were trying to do was not to keep prayer out of schools, but rather to keep the government from forming one religion as the national religion because in england that was why so many people died. When a catholic queen was on the throne, protestants died by the thousands, when a protestant queen was on the throne, catholics died by the thousands. It was a vicious cycle that this amendment was meant to stop, it was by NO MEANS AT ALL a "Separation of church and state" those words don't even APPEAR in the amendment.

What the GOVERNMENT is trying to do is see what it can skew and twist and still get away with so that the general public believes in no other deity than itself, and is therefor makes them subject only to it. And that's the truth.

It would do a lot people a lot of good to know what the law REALLY says.

ANYWAYS, as for your non-chrisitan religious books, that was also not right, the school should NOT have confiscated them on the pretense of disruption in class because, hell, schools are ABOUT books, and unless you were hitting someone over the head with it, it was a very bigoted thing to do and that principle should have been faced directly with a parental complaint.