Originally Posted by Techmaga

Personally, my belief is that the baby's life begins just as the egg is fertilized, and science has proven that fact.

For your argument as a whole, I'll say this: at least it's consistent. If you believe it's murder, exemptions don't actually make much sense.

However, I'm gonna take you to task on the science. The foetus begins developing when a fertilised egg implants in the womb lining. Many fertilised eggs do not implant successfully, and thus, by your criteria, hundreds of women unintentionally abort daily.
Not to mention that a 5 year old or a 30 year old, or indeed any human, is a developed being with a working brain and the capability of thought and emotion. For the first few weeks - and two-thirds of abortions are had before 12 weeks of pregnancy - a foetus is little more than a clump of cells that it'd be hard to distinguish from, say, a tumour. The issue becomes fuzzier the longer the foetus develops, but for the first trimester at least, it's only something that could be a person, not an actual person - it can't perceive or feel or move or do anything but sit there and let its cells divide.

Originally Posted by Kyoko Otonashi

Excuse me? I really resent you calling my grandmother a slut. It was all by the same man. They were married and he died of throat cancer.

It turned immature when you walked in. I made fun of an ARGUMENT you insulted a person, repeatedly. Please leave the debate so we can get back to some useful debating without you

So it's ok for you to insult her mother? But she does the same thing it's immature? Talk about double standards. Don't make fun of something if you can't handle a person doing the same to you.

Originally Posted by AkashaHeartilly

So it's ok for you to insult her mother? But she does the same thing it's immature? Talk about double standards. Don't make fun of something if you can't handle a person doing the same to you.

what? I never made fun of her mother....she said "i don't know about blah blah blah" i retorted with, "yes, i do, because my grandmother blah blah blah." I don't insult people in debates, i insult their argument. kthxbai

Originally Posted by Kyoko Otonashi

what? I never made fun of her mother....she said "i don't know about blah blah blah" i retorted with, "yes, i do, because my grandmother blah blah blah." I don't insult people in debates, i insult their argument. kthxbai

I read it as insulting her mother, and I think she may of read it the same way but I can't speak for her. Maybe you should think before throwing insults and getting all butt hurt when they get thrown back at you? kthanxbai!

Originally Posted by AkashaHeartilly

I read it as insulting her mother, and I think she may of read it the same way but I can't speak for her. Maybe you should think before throwing insults and getting all butt hurt when they get thrown back at you? kthanxbai!

I'm not sure where you got the insulting to her mother crap from that post. I went back and reread it. I didn't even mention her mother. You might want to reread it.

This is a debate section, where you challenge ones opinions and ideas. That's what i was doing by calling someone's argument moronic. I didn't bring personal insults into this, and i refuse to, as i view it as an immature act. Now, unless you're going to get back on topic, quit talking to me, because it's a waste of my time.

Originally Posted by Kyoko Otonashi

I'm not sure where you got the insulting to her mother crap from that post. I went back and reread it. I didn't even mention her mother. You might want to reread it.

This is a debate section, where you challenge ones opinions and ideas. That's what i was doing by calling someone's argument moronic. I didn't bring personal insults into this, and i refuse to, as i view it as an immature act. Now, unless you're going to get back on topic, quit talking to me, because it's a waste of my time.

Your the first one flinging insults, by insulting discussion and bringing it to an immature level. Sorry you don't see yourself as being moronic. You can debate the topi without flinging insults, of any kind, Wether it's at the arguement or at people.

does anyone have anything that's not useless to debate about on abortion? I'm passionate about the subject and would rather have a debate with someone than have all this whining going on.

Actually, i do debate abortion and many topics, but not with some who feels they have to fling insults and make fun of an agruement about it.

Though most of my views and opinions are posted in the original Abortion thread, and not a repeat thread.

As said, my views are pro-woman, and whatever each individual women feels is right for her and not what someone else's beliefs and opinions are that should happen to her body and her uterus. Sex does not equal consent to pregnancy, and another has no right over anyone's bodily domain.

There are so many ways to prevent pregnancy. But nothing short of having your ovaries removes is 100% safe. Not even vasectomy. So if you get pregnant because of that or a ripped condom - I think you should be allowed to have an abortion. More than anything, because giving birth to a child isn't just the mother's or the father's life - it's the kid's. Like choosing to give birth to a retarded baby or not.
It effects the baby just as much as it effects you, if not more. A 12-year-old gets pregnant and has the baby - and then what? She raises a kid when she's not even legal yet? How would that kid feel? How would s/he do socially?
-Your mom's so young!
-Yeah, teenage pregnancy for the win!


Or rape victims. Can you imagine how that conversation would go?
-Mommy why don't I have a daddy?
-Of course you have one, everyone does.
-Where is he?
-I don't know - hopefully dead in some dumpster!
-What?
-Yeah see, he was just a stranger with a mask who raped me...


I realize this is not a funny subject, I'm not trying to make it seem like a joke, but I think there certainly are cases in which the baby, for its own sake, should be aborted - or at least the family should get the option.


Also, while some people think of pregnancy as a form of punishment 'yeah you didn't use a condom NOW WHAT? HAHAHA!' I disagree. And you have to think, abortion isn't easy either. Whether you were pregnant for one week or three months... You get attached, even if a little bit. You wonder how the baby would be, would it be a girl or a boy? Which school would s/he go to? Etc etc... It's never not-painful to give that away. Even if it is the result of a rape. It's still a little human in you.
Also, abortion is very risky for the woman and she may never have a baby ever again.

It's not like 'whoosh baby gone, no responsibilities yay!'

I feel the woman should be able to choose. There are some reasons I don't agree with such as that being their only form of birth control, but if they don't want the kid then the child isn't going to be able to have a good life. Plus I believe in reincarnation, so even though they can't live their life this time around, they will be born to a better family. The only thing that does bug me is when the woman and the child's father are set to have the baby and then the woman has an abortion behind the father's back. It's really not fair, and she should at least talk to him about it.

Originally Posted by Neko Neko Kitty

I feel the woman should be able to choose. There are some reasons I don't agree with such as that being their only form of birth control, but if they don't want the kid then the child isn't going to be able to have a good life. Plus I believe in reincarnation, so even though they can't live their life this time around, they will be born to a better family. The only thing that does bug me is when the woman and the child's father are set to have the baby and then the woman has an abortion behind the father's back. It's really not fair, and she should at least talk to him about it.

Well, would you vote for their being a limit on abortions you can have to prevent people from using it as birth control?

Also, i seriously think school's should teach kids about the effects of abortion...physically. Because not many do, cuz it's TABOO, but i think that if more kids knew the risks that they're reconsider what they're doing (mostly having sex without too much thought into contraception).

If an unwanted child's life is going to be crappy due to the mother's inability to take care of them or nurture them into functional members of society, then it's better to end that questionable life before they go through all that pain.

What, would you rather have as many people as possible be miserable? You sick pro-life bastards.

Originally Posted by Sash

If an unwanted child's life is going to be crappy due to the mother's inability to take care of them or nurture them into functional members of society, then it's better to end that questionable life before they go through all that pain.

What, would you rather have as many people as possible be miserable? You sick pro-life bastards.

No, i wouldn't. I'm pro-life (without forcing anyone to follow my beliefs) because i value human life more than anything. And i've also seen woman who go, "ZOMG ABORTION!" wish they hadn't, and some woman who had wanted to but the father thought it was a bad idea, change their minds to keep it and are now happy. Just because a woman is freaking out and didn't originally want a child doesn't mean she will never grow attached to it. I strongly believe in maternal instincts.

I don't think abortion should be allowed. Ever. Even in rape cases. My girlfriend is a rape victim, and it was traumatizing for her, but luckily she wasn't pregnant, and got no STDs. However, during the time she was tested and waiting for results, she thought on what she would do if she was pregnant. She thought she would have the baby. It's not the baby's fault she was raped, and it's not hers either. Why should the baby have to die because of it? Sure, it's part of the rapist's DNA in her, but it's also part of her own. And if you can't take care of the child, that's what adoption is for.

Originally Posted by Pkero

I don't think abortion should be allowed. Ever. Even in rape cases. My girlfriend is a rape victim, and it was traumatizing for her, but luckily she wasn't pregnant, and got no STDs. However, during the time she was tested and waiting for results, she thought on what she would do if she was pregnant. She thought she would have the baby. It's not the baby's fault she was raped, and it's not hers either. Why should the baby have to die because of it? Sure, it's part of the rapist's DNA in her, but it's also part of her own. And if you can't take care of the child, that's what adoption is for.

Do you know how bad the american foster care system sucks, and the fact that few people adopt from america?

Originally Posted by Kyoko Otonashi

Do you know how bad the american foster care system sucks, and the fact that few people adopt from america?

Yes, and so does she. She's in her current family after going from place to place after being with abusive parents who were druggies and alcoholics, who turned out to NOT be her real parents. But that doesn't matter. I'm not a religious person, but I have my own morals to live by, and I disagree with abortion. Anywhere, not just America.

Originally Posted by Pkero

Yes, and so does she. She's in her current family after going from place to place after being with abusive parents who were druggies and alcoholics, who turned out to NOT be her real parents. But that doesn't matter. I'm not a religious person, but I have my own morals to live by, and I disagree with abortion. Anywhere, not just America.

i'm against abortion too, but sometimes i feel that putting a child into the foster care system is almost worse than abortion.

Originally Posted by Pkero

I don't think abortion should be allowed. Ever. Even in rape cases. My girlfriend is a rape victim, and it was traumatizing for her, but luckily she wasn't pregnant, and got no STDs. However, during the time she was tested and waiting for results, she thought on what she would do if she was pregnant. She thought she would have the baby. It's not the baby's fault she was raped, and it's not hers either. Why should the baby have to die because of it? Sure, it's part of the rapist's DNA in her, but it's also part of her own. And if you can't take care of the child, that's what adoption is for.

What the womans life was in danger if she carried on with the pregnancy/birth? or if the fetus died while still in the womb and won't come out naturally as a stillbirth?

Originally Posted by Kyoko Otonashi

i'm against abortion too, but sometimes i feel that putting a child into the foster care system is almost worse than abortion.

I know people who've been through the system who agree with you.

So your girlfriend turned out ok, one of the few from my experinces with people. Also that is your moral beliefs and not mine and not your choice, but mine or the women considering an abortion. Not everyone feels the same way and believes that life is scarced. If that was the case, most people wouldn't eat meat and actualy be working on making the world a better place and helping those who already exist.

I honestly don't see a problem with abortions. If a person doesn't think they can handle a child I think it's better to stop it before the kid is born then to abandon it after it's born.

Also at what point does a fetus actually get to a point that me removing it is wrong?

i think that abortion is good and bad. say if a teen gets pregnant, than she should have a choice other than giving birth ruining ther life and adoption. and if its just some woman that doesnt want kids cause shes worried about her figure then that is just wrong, and if you just dont plainly dont want a kid, then you could put them up for adoption. there are lots of optoins other than abortion. and say a woman got raped and she got pregnant, she should have the option of abortion. but when the person getting an abortion just cause they dont want kids, well thats like murder.

Originally Posted by Miss Polly

What the womans life was in danger if she carried on with the pregnancy/birth? or if the fetus died while still in the womb and won't come out naturally as a stillbirth?

Ectopic pregnancy!
Every now and then, a fertilised egg implants in the fallopian tube rather than the uterus, and a foetus grows there. If left to develop, it inevitably kills both the foetus and the woman carrying it. I believe even the Catholic church permits abortion in cases like that (due to 'double effect', where the 'sin' is not intentionally caused by the lifesaving surgery).

But I digress, 'cause, well, only the most callous anti-abortion sorts would object to that, since in cases where the foetus would die anyway, any argument against abortion is blatantly about something other than the welfare of a child.

Abortion is not good! How would it be when you are sacrificing an innocent life because you don't like/want it. And besides, have you people ever heard of the word "ORPHANAGE"? The child can grow there if he/she is not wanted. Don't you want to give the child a chance to grow into a good individual? Who knows, maybe he will be a change catalyst and will lead the start of a better world someday? Who knows? How will you know if you never gave it a try? Just think about it. I know it's not the fault of woman if they got raped and became pregnant at such a young age, but why use abortion when the child could have a good life when born and adopted?

Originally Posted by unloved_prinzes

Abortion is not good! How would it be when you are sacrificing an innocent life because you don't like/want it. And besides, have you people ever heard of the word "ORPHANAGE"? The child can grow there if he/she is not wanted. Don't you want to give the child a chance to grow into a good individual? Who knows, maybe he will be a change catalyst and will lead the start of a better world someday? Who knows? How will you know if you never gave it a try? Just think about it. I know it's not the fault of woman if they got raped and became pregnant at such a young age, but why use abortion when the child could have a good life when born and adopted?

Only if the kid is white and healthy and new born.

Also on the same coin the kid grow up to be the net Hitler or a child molester.

Have you actually met someone who has gone through the system? Some of the people i have met who have gone through it would of rather have been aborted than gone through the living hell they did.

Orphange are not wonderful and happy things and they do not always end with rainbows and kitten as they do in "Annie" Really, why add more kids to the system? Where they get tossed around, treated as nothing and then dumped on the streets at age 18, sounds like a great life to me.

Originally Posted by AkashaHeartilly

Only if the kid is white and healthy and new born.

Also on the same coin the kid grow up to be the net Hitler or a child molester.

Have you actually met someone who has gone through the system? Some of the people i have met who have gone through it would of rather have been aborted than gone through the living hell they did.

Orphange are not wonderful and happy things and they do not always end with rainbows and kitten as they do in "Annie" Really, why add more kids to the system? Where they get tossed around, treated as nothing and then dumped on the streets at age 18, sounds like a great life to me.

Actually, I know of a person who did what I said!! And the kid's doing nicely. Just one question, which one would you choose? To live or die? I've wondered so many times about why lots of people live instead of just putting an end to their lives? You, for example. Why do you even care to live if you can just die? And besides, orphanages are good!!! The children would be cared for there!