Originally Posted by Kris

Why in those cases but not in others?
Is the fetus worth less in these cases?

it's not that the fetus is worth less, but the mother is worth something too.
Her psychological and physical health is just as important as that baby's.
If a five year old gets pregnant, they probably couldn't carry the child through to birth without negative health effects. The odds of a five year old getting pregnant are pretty slim, but I do believe it has happened before.

Originally Posted by Xxbl00dyxangelxX

it's not that the fetus is worth less, but the mother is worth something too.
Her psychological and physical health is just as important as that baby's.
If a five year old gets pregnant, they probably couldn't carry the child through to birth without negative health effects. The odds of a five year old getting pregnant are pretty slim, but I do believe it has happened before.

But, is the mother's psychological state not as important when she consented to have sex? Why is it that, if a woman consented to have sex, she is suddenly not allowed to have an abortion? Isn't her well-being and her state of living important?

Originally Posted by Kris

But, is the mother's psychological state not as important when she consented to have sex? Why is it that, if a woman consented to have sex, she is suddenly not allowed to have an abortion? Isn't her well-being and her state of living important?

it's different with rape. Haven't rape victims suffered enough? They'd feel like they were carrying the devils child in their womb..and when that child came out..when they looked in its eyes...and they saw their rapist..well you can imagine how that would feel.

Also, most rape victims are college students, their education is at stake.
If it was consensual, the person should have practiced safe sex, but I'm not going to flip on them on having an abortion. It's their choice.

Now if the father wants to keep the child..well that complicates things and is a different story.

I personally don't think I could ever go through with one, but no one is exactly alike and I know some people go through traumatic events that leads to unwanted pregnancies.

In my person opinion abortion should be legal but a scanned process. It shouldn't be allowed for birth control, only rape situations.

Well, abortion should be the decision of the mother, since it is she that is giving life to the baby. Some people are saying that it's murder to abort the baby - so what? the mother is the one keeping living daily they should get the choice if they want to provide life to them anymore. If you think that abortion is like murder, then it is the same as how you see someone bleeding on the street and you don't say "want help?", walk away, and know that they're going to die.

What a woman does with her body is her choice. This is going to sound harsh, but babies can make or break lives.
Also: telling people to just use protection, or worse, "don't have sex" is stupid. Stupid, stupid!
Besides, why let a baby be born to a parent that doesn't want it? If people are so concerned with the well-being of a baby, they need to consider the kind of environment the baby would grow up in. I'm not saying that the mother would be a bad parent, I'm just saying, once again; Babies make or break lives.

I still say it should be allowed under a scanned process and only for horrid things like rape.
Using it to fix a "boo-boo" is crazy. I'm not saying they have to keep the baby, there's always adoption, but if you got pregnant because you willingly had sex, you shouldn't be allowed to erase that. It's a risk anyone who has sex knows about and maybe someone should have thought about before committing the act.

Originally Posted by Scarebear

I still say it should be allowed under a scanned process and only for horrid things like rape.
Using it to fix a "boo-boo" is crazy. I'm not saying they have to keep the baby, there's always adoption, but if you got pregnant because you willingly had sex, you shouldn't be allowed to erase that. It's a risk anyone who has sex knows about and maybe someone should have thought about before committing the act.

It's not a "boo-boo", it's more like a devastating laceration that if not handled and timed properly, could mentally and physically scar the woman and the being of the baby for the rest of their lives.

Having a baby and going through the process of pregnancy unwillingly, forced, alone, and super scared I would argue is almost just as worse as rape. Pregnancy is not a straight result of just having sex. I could willingly have sex and my protection may fail; is my 'punishment' suddenly to be forced to carry a pregnancy I don't want? No, and it's wrong to turn something that should be natural, beautiful, and wanted into a 'punishment.'

And again, saying that it's okay for a woman to have an abortion because she's raped, and then saying that you can't in other situations is already contradicting what you're trying to defend. You've already proven that the welfare of the woman is important in one situation, and that the fetus is of less value. If the fetus can be of little value in a 'rape' scenario for the sake of the woman, then what's the difference with any other case? A woman seeks an abortion for a good reason. Abortions are expensive, damaging, and emotionally traumatizing. NOBODY uses it as a form of birth control, and if they do, then they're nuts.

Also, saying that "adoption" is a perfectly OK thing to do after you make a person bring a child into this world is horrible. Have you ever been adopted before? It's ghastly to think that people see it as an 'acceptable' solution to plop a child into a system of foster care and mental trauma. It's shameful to have to do that. So why even put a concious child through that? It's better to take care of the issue beforehand, and go through with the abortion while the fetus won't care.

That and people don't always get pregnant from having sex all the time, it doesn't work that way.

Where did I say they get pregnant from having sex all the time? I'm saying it's a known risk that sex could lead to it. If you don't know that and that birth control does fail here and there, you shouldn't being having sex.

Originally Posted by Scarebear

Where did I say they get pregnant from having sex all the time? I'm saying it's a known risk that sex could lead to it. If you don't know that and that birth control does fail here and there, you shouldn't being having sex.

You really made no sense with that. Yeah, Sex, even with protection, can cause pregnancy. Accidents happen, Even if you KNOW they might happen, they're still gonna happen, so it doesn't really matter, does it?

You've managed to latch on to the least important aspect of the argument, so let's try again.

I think Deviant was right. Why should it matter if it was rape or not? Why is it, in your mind, a fetus produced through a rape is any less valuable then one produce through normal unprotected/protected but failed sex? Why is it that the rape baby doesn't deserve a right to live? Obviously, if the mother is considering an abortion, the fetus isn't wanted (at least not at that moment). So why should it matter WHY it isn't wanted? Why should it matter that the mother doesn't want the baby because it's a rape product or the mother doesn't want the baby because she is financial unable to care for/mentally unprepared to care for/physically unwilling to care for the fetus?

In simple English.. Why is the REASON important? If the mother doesn't want to carry a fetus around in her for 9 months, why should it matter how it got there?

In my opinion(I'm well aware my opinion is different then other peoples), abortion used outside of a case like rape comes off as someone using it as birth control...kind of like a back up plan for the first method failing. I feel it shouldn't be used that way. That's my problem with it. I know in other people's mind, it's just a fetus, but in my opinion, once I choose sex and get pregnant, even by accident, that fetus/child is a part of me and so getting rid of them seems cold.

I'm just expressing my views though. No need to get hostile becuase they don't match yours.

Originally Posted by Scarebear

Where did I say they get pregnant from having sex all the time? I'm saying it's a known risk that sex could lead to it. If you don't know that and that birth control does fail here and there, you shouldn't being having sex.

"It's a risk anyone who has sex knows about and maybe someone should have thought about before committing the act."

The way you implied it, however, makes it sound like you think a lot of people don't consider the risks.

If a person is on any form of birth control, then they obviously don't want to get pregnant--and they have taken the precaution. If everyone was afraid of an accident occuring, then nobody who wasn't trying to get pregnant would have sex, ever. And that's completely unnatural and unrealistic. Nobody should have to be in fear of having their sexual needs fufilled, or sharing an intimate moment with their partner because they're afraid they'll be forced to carry a pregnancy if they get pregnant. That's just not fair.

Originally Posted by Scarebear

In my opinion(I'm well aware my opinion is different then other peoples), abortion used outside of a case like rape comes off as someone using it as birth control...kind of like a back up plan for the first method failing. I feel it shouldn't be used that way. That's my problem with it. I know in other people's mind, it's just a fetus, but in my opinion, once I choose sex and get pregnant, even by accident, that fetus/child is a part of me and so getting rid of them seems cold.

I'm just expressing my views though. No need to get hostile becuase they don't match yours.

But why is a rape any different? If it's a child you didn't plan or you're not able to care for in some way, why would it matter if it was an accident or by force? Why would you keep a child you didn't plan for but abort a child produced through a rape?

Originally Posted by MollyJean

But why is a rape any different? If it's a child you didn't plan or you're not able to care for in some way, why would it matter if it was an accident or by force? Why would you keep a child you didn't plan for but abort a child produced through a rape?

Because in my own opinion, a child born through rape would be more traumatizing to a woman then one through accidental conception.

Originally Posted by Scarebear

Because in my own opinion, a child born through rape would be more traumatizing to a woman then one through accidental conception.

Besides the violence that occured during the rape, unexpected pregnancies are very much equally traumatizing for people who are not ready and unprepared. Just the fact that each person's situation when the unplanned pregnancy occurs is so diverse, there is /no way/ that you could make the generalization because nobody knows for a fact how each individual handles it.

Originally Posted by Scarebear

Because in my own opinion, a child born through rape would be more traumatizing to a woman then one through accidental conception.

This really depends on the situation of the mother. If she's unable to BE pregnant for 9 months, has no one to care for her, no education, no money, no home or no family, and she knows that the fetus would suffer if it was allowed to be carried to term.. not to mention SHE would suffer for any number of reasons, then how is it any different? How is accidentally conceiving while living in a homeless shelter any less traumatizing? How is knowing that, once you reach that point in a pregnancy where you can't work, you will lose your job, which means you might lose your home, any less traumatizing? How is the idea that, because you are unwed, your family might disown you, or that some member of your family might hurt you for being pregnant any less traumatic?

I can appreciate that, in your position, you might abort the product of a rape, but feel that an accidental pregnancy wouldn't be as traumatic, but the truth is, it isn't all you, it varies from person to person, and what might seem mundane in your eyes might be psychologically scaring to another woman, and there are no two situations the same.

You said before;

In my person opinion abortion should be legal but a scanned process. It shouldn't be allowed for birth control, only rape situations.

But this really isn't viable, because there are a lot of situations that can be traumatizing to a woman, rape is only the most commonly spoke of.

Fine, I stated my stand and that's where I am on it.
No matter where I stand, how would a scanned process not work?

To get an abortion I think a therapist should have to examine the woman in question, take in all the factors mentioned above and decide whether it's in the best interest of the woman and pending child to come into this world. I feel something should be done to prevent the rare case of someone just wanting to erase a mistake. And if it would be traumatizing for the woman or not in the best interest, then a therapist will be able to see that and fine, let it be done.

Originally Posted by Scarebear

Fine, I stated my stand and that's where I am on it.
No matter where I stand, how would a scanned process not work?

To get an abortion I think a therapist should have to examine the woman in question, take in all the factors mentioned above and decide whether it's in the best interest of the woman and pending child to come into this world. I feel something should be done to prevent the rare case of someone just wanting to erase a mistake. And if it would be traumatizing for the woman or not in the best interest, then a therapist will be able to see that and fine, let it be done.

Then tell me this. When a woman says "I don't want to have this baby" how does a therapist decide it's in a woman's best interest that she does? Does she say "Well, you're physically able, your mentally stable and you have the money for it"?

And how traumatizing would it be for a woman to say "I don't want to have this baby" and a therapist to come in and say "Well I say you are going to have it anyway"?

What would be scanned? What would be looked at? What would matter? What factors are important? And what is more important then the woman's right to the functions of her own body? You've clearly stated that the fetus isn't more important just through your insistence that a rape can be aborted.

I don't see any way a scanned process CAN work. Unless we become a society where a human has lost rights to their own body and it's uses.

And just so we're clear, when a woman has an abortion, they do, or at least by law, they SHOULD, speak to a therapist about the situation. Clinics, every single one, employee licensed, educated therapist and psychologist to deal with women, because the abortions themselves can be traumatic. But that Doctor has no right to decide what is right for a woman and can't force her to do anything.

Originally Posted by Scarebear

Fine, I stated my stand and that's where I am on it.
No matter where I stand, how would a scanned process not work?

To get an abortion I think a therapist should have to examine the woman in question, take in all the factors mentioned above and decide whether it's in the best interest of the woman and pending child to come into this world. I feel something should be done to prevent the rare case of someone just wanting to erase a mistake. And if it would be traumatizing for the woman or not in the best interest, then a therapist will be able to see that and fine, let it be done.

Actually, prior to a surgical abortion(I'm not sure about medically induced), at a lot of clinics it is a requirement that the women talk to counsellors. They have to discuss the after effects of the abortion, the reasons why they're getting it, and what are some of the feelings that they're experiencing. It's recommended that a therapy session post-abortion should be followed up at these clinics. Antibiotics are also given to prevent infection.

So in a sense these women are being psychologically 'scanned' already. And at many clinics, if a women has had an abortion multiple times, she is often turned away for the fact that her insurance won't cover the operation, or that she has been scarred too many times from the previous abortions that it would be too risky to perform the procedure due to infection and mortality rates(they make you sign a medical release stating that there is a possibility of sterility and mortality). Although instances of a woman coming back to an abortion clinic more than three times is rare.

Then I was misinformed about it. My bad.

Originally Posted by Scarebear

I still say it should be allowed under a scanned process and only for horrid things like rape.
Using it to fix a "boo-boo" is crazy. I'm not saying they have to keep the baby, there's always adoption, but if you got pregnant because you willingly had sex, you shouldn't be allowed to erase that. It's a risk anyone who has sex knows about and maybe someone should have thought about before committing the act.

Ah, I see, it's not about how sacred a life is at all.
It's about punishing women for having sex drives.

Having sex is not a crime. It should not be punished. A pregnancy should NEVER be a punishment, ever. Not only does that demean women's rights, but it also diminishes the value of the child created from that pregnancy. It is no longer there because the mother wanted it to, but it is a punishment.

Do you have no respect for human value or rights whatsoever?

Your opinion doesn't matter in someone else's trauma. If you have a woman who is pregnant and keeping the pregnancy to term would cause her a great deal of personal strife and pain, your opinion doesn't matter. You can't say to her "Well, in my opinion, it would be worse if it was rape", because it is not your trauma. It is not your situation, body, or emotions in term oil here. Your opinions have no bearing on the feelings of others, nor do mine, or a therapists, or anyone but that person's. If a woman is pregnant, keeping it to term or not is personal and only she has the ability to decide what is best for her.

I didn't mean it as being seen as a punishment, I must have worded it badly for that to be seen. I don't see pregnancy as a punishment I just don't feel the fetus should be punished for the woman's sex drive...Eh...nevermind. There's probably no way for me to word it where it won't be taken in the worst way so I'm just dropping out of this debate since I can't find the correct words to say.

Originally Posted by Scarebear

I didn't mean it as being seen as a punishment, I must have worded it badly for that to be seen. I don't see pregnancy as a punishment I just don't feel the fetus should be punished for the woman's sex drive...Eh...nevermind. There's probably no way for me to word it where it won't be taken in the worst way so I'm just dropping out of this debate since I can't find the correct words to say.

I can help you a little with this one. The best way to word it is to say "This is what I HOPE I would do with MY body if in this situation, but I have no right to make those choices for another woman."

Well, no, you don't have to say that if you don't want too, but in the end, that's what I would say.

If you don't want to get an abortion, if you feel that, for you, it's not ideal, then that's great, and I wish you all the luck in the world. But to say a woman shouldn't get an abortion unless she meets your criteria is more then a little insulting. No one really has that right. Not a single person and not the government as a whole, can decide what a grown woman is allowed to do with her body. I don't even want to think about what that might lead to.

And it's a bit vicious to say that another woman who might have had a very valid reason for her abortion wasn't deserving of one because those reasons weren't as sever as rape. Who, exactly, judges those things? I don't think anyone has that right.

Originally Posted by Scarebear

I didn't mean it as being seen as a punishment, I must have worded it badly for that to be seen. I don't see pregnancy as a punishment I just don't feel the fetus should be punished for the woman's sex drive...Eh...nevermind. There's probably no way for me to word it where it won't be taken in the worst way so I'm just dropping out of this debate since I can't find the correct words to say.

No one is trying to punish the fetus. However, it seems obvious that
1) You do not have much concern for the value of life for the fetus, as it is okay to abort it in circumstances of rape. Why is this? Is a fetus produced from rape worth less than a fetus otherwise?
and
2) Any suffering of the woman is not something you have too much concern for. It is quite possible to suffer from a pregnancy that you do not want if you are forced to go through with it. What if forcing a woman to go through with a pregnancy means that she loses her job? That she has to drop out of college? That she is shunned by family and friends?

Sex is not only used to reproduce. Are you sexually active? If so, has every single time you've had sex been with the goal of having a child? Isn't this an unreasonable thing to expect?

Furthermore, how do you expect to decide who was "really" raped or not? If a woman is desperate enough, she could make a false claim. Then, you also have rape victims who lose their court cases. Even if they can have a court case to see who was "really" raped, then this could take months and months. Not only does this not solve the problem of the woman not wanting the pregnancy, but it might take so long that once it is done, she may not even be eligible to have an abortion.

Originally Posted by Kris

Ah, I see, it's not about how sacred a life is at all.
It's about punishing women for having sex drives.

Having sex is not a crime. It should not be punished. A pregnancy should NEVER be a punishment, ever. Not only does that demean women's rights, but it also diminishes the value of the child created from that pregnancy. It is no longer there because the mother wanted it to, but it is a punishment.

I'm not one to really get into these kinds of debates, but I can't help but to ask why a child is considered a punishment to a woman who doesn't want one instead of simply a responsibility. Accidentally getting pregnant and being forced to birth the child because a woman or man simply didn't use birth control isn't a punishment. It's a responsibility.

You're right that a pregnancy should never be a punishment, so why is it looked on like one? The child is there not to punish the mother, but because of a choice the mother made in birth control.

This, of course, does not apply to accidents or rape I know. But you have to admit that many women misuse the right of abortion as birth control. I know two people that have done so, and it's simply sicking.

Again, I'm going to state that NOT ALL WOMEN USE ABORTION AS A BIRTH CONTROL, so please don't jump all over me.