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Ava The Vampire
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#1
Old 12-27-2018, 03:46 AM

*WARNING! MIGHT BE TRIGGERING! PLEASE READ AT YOUR OWN RISK!*
(Trigger warning; rape, abuse, etc.)


I was recently on a forum where someone asked this question..
"If I am having sex with someone, I'm not on birth control, and they don't pull out to avoid pregnancy... is that rape?"

I'll give you my opinion... It's not rape. The sex itself was consensual. Having sex, then later regretting it, or not liking the way it went IS NOT RAPE. I know, I seem harsh here, but honestly, I've been seeing more and more of this lately... People having sex, or being in sexual situations (all consensual) and then later having regrets about it... NOT rape!

I'll admit, that particular situation is a grey area. I do believe that what he did was really asshat of him. If a partner does not respect your boundaries, they are not worth having sex with. But this person did say that the sex was consensual. They were not drugged, drunk and did not say "no". But some people may interpret their request for their partner to pull out as "saying no". What are your thoughts on this?

The reason why I am upset is because people act like *I* am the bad person for saying that bad sex =/= rape. I've been seeing shit like this more and more. On this same forum someone asked, "Is it rape if my mom touched my butt as an infant while changing my diaper?" LIKE... SERIOUSLY! WTF! And the sad thing is, people are so quick to say, "Yes that was rape! You were an infant! How DARE your mother touch your butt!"

It's so frustrating because it invalidates actual rape. I was not taken seriously by police, therapists, my parents, anyone I told about the fact that I was raped... I'm glad that people are not victim-blaming anymore... But not EVERYTHING is rape! Rape is a very, very serious crime and can have a HUGE effect on your life and mental state... It can cause PTSD, night terrors, flashbacks, unstable relationships... Having your ass touched as a baby IS NOT SEXUAL ABUSE. How the fuck do you even remember being in diapers?!

Someone got really anal with me on that and was like, "She was assaulted and you're NOT helping her!" It hurt me a lot. It hurt because I was *actually* raped and NO ONE believed me. I spent years holding it in, listening to people telling me that I was "lying"... I even lost friends in middle school after I told them what happened. It was the most isolating thing I'd ever experienced.. But, someone has regrets after sex? Yeah, it's rape!

And the worst part about it was, this person said, "We've come a long was as a society. Women don't have to do everything a man says anymore!" As if that being "empowered" means to call everything sexual assault/rape. I like the #MeToo, I like that more and more women are coming out and sharing their experiences... But I don't like it when people try to jump on the bandwagon... I don't know. Because they want to be involved?! It's just like the whole "I'm OCD because I can't stop washing my hands!" Thing...

I don't agree with victim blaming... *I* was a "victim" of victim blaming. What I *don't* agree with is when people say they've been abused when they clearly were not. I hate that. Bad sex or painful sex or awkward sex is NOT rape. If the person was drunk, drugged or said no, that is rape, even if they didn't want to have sex but were coerced into it, even THAT is rape.. But consenting to sex and later regretting it for whatever reason, that is NOT rape.

/rant

And please, tell me your opinions?

Risque
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#2
Old 12-27-2018, 07:48 AM

Hey Ava. Sorry to hear you had to go through that. I agree when you say that some people are too liberal with their definition of rape and that it diminishes the severity of when actual sexual abuse occurs.

By law (in the US), consent is based upon the "terms and conditions" of the act, which is why it's rape if you lie about using a condom and etc. In this case, consenting to unprotected sex did not automatically imply consent to pulling out (or otherwise), and while the efficacy of pulling out as a method of birth control is dubious at best, it's still something that would have affected whether or not the woman agreed to sex in the first place, so I think it can be classified as rape. Additionally, you can be actively having sex and then withdraw consent during the act.

IDK all the details of what happened, but yeah... I might be disagreeing with you.

Totally agree on the rest though... regretting the sex != rape.

Our society really needs to address implied consent and make formal rules for that shit because let's be real, if I met some dude at a club and agreed to go up to his room, that's pretty much consenting to something. It sucks that people feel like they've been coerced or pressured into giving consent when they didn't really want to, but jfc we need to give women the credit and agency to own up to their own failure to say "no."

On a related note:
Real victim shaming like what you went through, is abhorrent. But I can't help but shake my head when someone gets trashed at a party all alone and without trusted friends to look after them.

That's just my 2c. A lot of people will disagree but whatever, I just want a world where people can be safe from sexual violence.

Ava The Vampire
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#3
Old 12-27-2018, 09:23 PM

I've calmed down since posting this...

I can accept that in that particular case, it was not consensual of the man to not pull out. That makes sense..

I think the truth was, I wasn't actually mad over that. It was that someone else in the thread was accusing me of things that I've actually been a victim of myself.

Perhaps I was over-identifying, though.

I guess in my mind, if you consent to the sex, yes, you can take away consent at any time... BUT if you don't say "no" or "stop" or make any sort of gesture to indicate that you don't consent anymore... how is your partner going to know that you withdrew consent? They can't read your mind...?! If you're drunk or drugged, you can't give consent. But, say you give consent and then later want to withdraw consent. If you don't make it known that you've withdrawn consent and then later on say, "They raped me".. I mean, that doesn't make sense to me.

Your partner cannot read your mind. If you were coerced into it, yes, that is rape. But if you fully consented and then later on didn't want to consent anymore but don't make an effort to tell your partner...? That's not fair to them!

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#4
Old 12-28-2018, 05:58 AM

When you put it that way yeah... withdrawal of consent should be explicit, but doesn't that mean that implied consent shouldn't be a thing either?
It's a dangerously grey area though because as I mentioned earlier, people implicitly consent to sex all the time, heck, I doubt that married couples have to make verbal agreements every time they initiate sexual contact. I dunno man.. we've come a long way from "it's not rape if you're married" and there has to be a good middle ground somewhere...

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#5
Old 12-28-2018, 09:53 PM

I completely disagree with the notion that "it's not rape if you're married" :(
As a victim myself, I've heard many people tell me that since I was "dating" the guy who raped me that that meant I automatically consented.

I think the thing that upset me is when someone doesn't make it clear that they revoked consent. It hurts me because the rape I experienced happened many years ago, but still haunts me to this day. It ruined my life and while I understand that rape effects everyone differently, I don't believe in telling someone that they were raped when they never told their partner that they no longer consented.

I went through hell to get someone to believe me. I feel that when someone makes false accusation or even just exaggerated accusations, it reflects badly on survivors because it creates a sense of doubt and it diminishes the impact that rape has on a person.

I think of it this way, if someone says, "I have mood swings, does that make me bipolar?" Would you say "yes" because that's what they want to hear? Or would you be honest and say, "It's not bipolar to just have mood swings."

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#6
Old 12-29-2018, 09:42 PM

I should have specified that I'm *thankful* we've come a long way from the days where being married automatically meant consent.

Yeah... or like, if I consent but I'm not 100% in the mood, I don't think I automatically have the right to later backtrack and say that I only consented because I felt like I should, or because of external pressures, it would be a very slippery slope otherwise.

I wish people would be honest with their intentions, because there are lots of bad people in the world. Even though there are some evil people out there who would leverage the #metoo movement for their own gain, there are plenty of women who fight tooth and nail to be believed, and I'm positive there are many legitimate cases where a woman was pressured to consent and it should constitute rape.

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#7
Old 01-03-2019, 10:14 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ava The Vampire View Post
"If I am having sex with someone, I'm not on birth control, and they don't pull out to avoid pregnancy... is that rape?"
Too many follow-up questions before you can answer that question, including but not limited to:
Did the man ejaculate inside the woman even though there was implicit or explicit agreement that he should avoid getting her pregnant?
Did the man ask for permission to ejaculate inside the woman?
Did the man intend to pull out but ejaculated inside by accident?

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#8
Old 03-15-2019, 03:02 AM

I've taken some extremely serious thought over this...

I've come to the conclusion that I will believe ANYONE who tells me that they had experienced sexual violence of ANY kind.
Yes, there are some people who abuse the #MeToo movement... Yes, some women falsely accuse men of rape/sexual violence. I won't deny that. But until their stories have been 100% debunked, I will support the victim always.

I know from experience, nothing feels worse than telling someone you care about and trust about sexual violence to be met with disbelief or shame.

The Wandering Poet
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#9
Old 04-11-2019, 04:01 PM

I would say no because the fact that they are not using protection already puts her at risk of pregnancy wether they finish or not.

You also end up incriminating a lot of people with a sexual disorder can not control it.

A person should never be believed simply because they say so. Especially simply because of their gender. It is primitive in nature and gives a young adult way more power than they are responsible enough to handle safely.

Even just mentioning it destroys a mans life even of he was innocent. Many of them turn to suicide from the abuse.

That is to say if a friend tells you this you should certainly comfort them, but also help them to file a legal case not a Facebook case.

Edit - reading a bit of the replies I can understand how you might consider that rape of he does so and you say not to, however two major issues with this argument.
1. You are not using protection and have already consented to the risks that entails whether you think about it or not. Not using a condom even without finishing can result in pregnancy. Pulling out can also result in pregnancy. The woman is equally responsible for this result. If a woman can not consider that consent she should be using protection.

However there is a thing called ghosting, which involves removing said protection and that is very much so a bad thing. BUT in order to incriminate this action the woman herself can also be incriminated by means of a lie about birth control and/or stopping it without telling their partner.

2. You may revoke consent at any time however for any time before that they still have consent. You can not backdate consent. The act of saying no can't be used minutes/hours/days later. It must be before or during at which it goes into effect at that time only.

----

The number one issue with how this topic is always discussed is that 99% of the time only a man has responsibilities. However as an adult the woman has equal responsibility.

A man is equally capable of being a victim and so all accusations should go both ways.

Last edited by The Wandering Poet; 04-11-2019 at 06:04 PM..

Ava The Vampire
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#10
Old 04-15-2019, 10:48 PM

I completely agree with most of your post, Poet!

It does make sense, and it's NOT fair that some women take advantage of the #MeToo movement to incriminate men that they regret sleeping with. :(

It completely infuriates me that some women would lie about abuse... regardless of their motives! I know someone (who used to be my best friend) lie about her mom abusing her... I was *there* when "it" happened and I remember it well. We were like 8 and her mom said we couldn't eat dinner until we cleaned up after ourselves... And my friend says THAT was abuse??? Bitch, please.

Someone I know on a Discord server said that if someone came to them and confided that they were abused, that they would not completely believe that person until proof came out that they were right.... I get that, but "proof" can't always be found. If your "friend" told you that they were raped, you'd tell them, "Well, I can't totally believe you until you give me proof"....? I mean, that's just low. That's not validating at all and I wouldn't feel safe being their friend if they would just dismiss me like that because I don't have solid "proof"...

They also said that there are "character witnesses"... Ergo, a rapist will always have someone who will provide "character information" against them. Which, I completely disagree with. Most rapists are known to their victims and to everyone else, they are the best person in the world! To everyone who isn't their victim, they are a saint and they would never ever hurt anyone.. So I disagree with that.

If a man came to me and said that they were raped. I would believe them just as much as I would believe a woman who told me what happened...

I guess in my last post, I made it seem like I would "believe all women", when what I REALLY meant was I "believe ALL victims", male, female, other...

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#11
Old 04-16-2019, 01:55 PM

I think in terms of wanting proof, a friend shouldn't need proof yo comfort their friend. A stranger should expect proof.

Though if this person had this event and then never went to therapy for it I would be skeptical. As you don't just brush off trauma.

It is quite common that they know their victim. However there are also opportunists.

 


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