A version of this has probably been done, but basically, I am currently having a "heated" (as in, i'm raging, he's trying to explain) debate about it.

His view: Basically, anyone can learn to be great at art. It's a skill. He's basically backing his opinion with what "professionals" say. He says anyone who can't do it can't because they are lazy and can't be bothered to try hard enough to learn.

My view: Yes, you can learn to progress at art, but you have to have some form of artistic talent in the first place to become a great artist. I'm backing my view on the fact that, no matter how much I try; watch videos, practice, study object and pictures and things, I cannot get my head around 3D perspectives or making stuff look 3D on a piece of paper. For example, a person facing the front holding their arm out. I can't work out how. . . Just how?! It seriously stresses me out because I SO want to understand but it's one of those things my brain just can't calculate and if I think about for too long it's just a jumbled blur of WTF!?

So, what are your views?
Also, does anyone have any certain aspects of art they can't get their head around?

If anyone can teach me perspectives, i'll worship them forever. ;D

Mm, I think I sit in the middle. Sorry, I'm going to ramble quite a bit. ^^;;

I think those who are more artistically inclined do have a sort of headstart. They can develop their skills a bit easier, because they have "the talent." They will still need to practice, because they're not going to produce masterpieces just because they have an inclination toward art.

I guess I would compare it to kids playing soccer. Any kid can learn how to run and kick a ball. Having a propensity to maneuver your body skillfully to avoid the other team, kick the ball toward the goal or your teammates, or just be able to move without tripping your own feet gives you a higher chance of success than an average clumsy child. If...that makes any sense. @_@;;

What I think is more important than "talent," however, is passion. There's liking art, and really loving, breathing, and dreaming it. That passion to create and express yourself is what I think drives you to improve. Sure, you can say anyone can learn calculus, but it will take an individual with no interest in math much longer to do it. They will more likely become frustrated and give up long before they understand it. Someone with an inclination toward math will definitely pick it up faster because that is what they're passionate about.

I wouldn't exactly say that people who aren't as "good" at art are lazy. There's a lot of tricks to learning how to draw.

When I was just a kid, I was using references and my own reflection to help me with poses. It wasn't until I was older that I learned how to deconstruct complicated drawing ideas, like the person facing forward and holding their art out example you gave. I would break the arm down first by making it nothing more than circles and lines. Then I would fill them in as cylinders. Finally, I'll add muscle tone. I'm so visual that I'll still use my own reflection or one of those manikans to help me take that image in my head to draw on my paper.

If you'd like some help on perspective, I can give it a try. Post one of your works and I'll break it down the best I can to help you improve. I'm no professional, nor do I teach, but I taught myself from years of observation and practice. I'll be happy to help out the best I can. ^^

I think it can go either way depending on the person. Some people have an innate or accelerated ability in art, some just work their arses off for a very long time.
I'm one of the latter. I practiced everyday for about 2 years and became okay but not great. Others pick things up in less time.

ToriKat: Help would be great, but I don't really think i've done much involving perspective because I tend to try and avoid it. xD My art post thing is here, but it's really not good. Although, i've found i'm better with creatures than people.

Art is all about looking and really seeing an object and drawing it. That is how you get better. Those that don't won't improve. Sure some people learn faster then others but everyone can learn.

I'm a person who hates the word talent. You won't see a talent unless it is used, ether way you will have to work.

No one is born as any profession.

I guess I'm kind of in the middle on that.

Anyone can learn to draw from books and tutorials, in my opinion. Anyone can draw a circle, then draw perpendicular lines through it, then draw eyes and mouth, etc, etc. Not everyone can take those tutorials and make it their own.
But you also need to practice to find your particular style, so it can be learned.
You do need to have a creative inclination in the first place though. Like I said, anyone can learn to draw. But to want to draw, and have ideas on what to draw isn't learned. You can't teach vision and inspiration.

Perspective, I can help you on. I bought a two dollar artist mannequin and it improved my art dramatically. Granted, I broke it within a week (new toys never last very long with me xD) but it helped long term in fixing my proportion and perspective issues.

I can't give you much more advice on perspective than that, because I suck at teaching. But I found this tutorial on DA a while back, maybe you can use it.

I'm definitely in the middle with this. You can be born with a very natural disposition to express yourself visually and draw. Children LOVE to draw. But many give it up (outside of the random doodle here and there) once they hit their teen years. A lot of the time it's because they can't get something right, so they give it up instead of learning how to draw it. As children we draw symbols of what we THINK something is supposed to look like instead of really seeing it for what it is. You know, macaroni and cheese arms, and eye balls that look like this, but flipped to the side: (o)

Some kids just continue drawing and do it because they enjoy it, and gradually see themselves improve. Later on, they realize that it's something that they are really good at and don't give it up. Then eventually learn how to improve more through practice and learning from classes and what have you. Though yes, some kids are way more predisposed to drawing than others. I know I didn't do the symbol thing as much growing up at least past kidnergarten when I observed the wonders of joints lol. XD The people who are more predisposed to visual expression of any sort tend to stick with it.

Now, once an adult sits down and actually LEARNS how to see (draw from life and what not) they CAN actually produce similar results to those who have done it all their life. The difference is that someone who's done it their whole life with that "talent" has more practice, so they can be better. Some people with talent are really able to recreate what they "see" inside their head as far as a concept goes a lot better than someone who has art as a learned skill. Or they may be able to switch between mulitple styles, techniques and mediums more fluidly than someone who only has a learned skill in art. :D

Agreeing with most people on here, I'm in the middle.

I'd say I'm pretty good at drawing, but I don't think I could ever get as good as some people who really have a lot of natural talent. I definitely could improve, though my skills may not develop as much as someone who has "the talent".

I'm sure many people have heard of those genius painters who are like 6 and 7 years old, that's definitely untaught natural talent.

I've drawn ever since I could hold a crayon. It's just what I did. Drawing was entertaining, even if I wasn't very good.
Here, I even have an example of what I drew then: http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs71/i/20...ed-d4fzmgv.jpg
But as I drew more and more I got better.
Here's some recent art: http://th03.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/...ed-d4foo6f.jpg
There's about an 8 year span between the two pictures, improvement doesn't come overnight.

So I wouldn't say you have to be born with talent, I wasn't. All you really need is the will to improve and lots of paper. :>

As for how to improve?

Draw the things around you.
Draw the people you see.
Use photographs for references, so that you get a good understanding of real life before you develop your own style.
Draw individual body parts.
Look at pictures of muscles and bones, so you understand how they lay beneath the skin.
Draw them.

My anatomy and perspective are not perfect, but this really helps.

I'm dead center on this debate. I read somewhere once that we have a part of our brains that's mathematical, and part that is artistical. Most of use are inclined to use more of one part than the other (Like the artistic student who gets c's in math or the math student who looks like they'll only ever be able to draw stick figures).

I'm more of the people that are in the middle. I love math and art and just as good at one as the other. I'm not as good as my friend who is completely artistic and I'm not the number one mathlete in my grade.

My friend could look at something and draw it better than it is in real life while I had learned to break it down, because of that math part of me. As soon as I learned to break it down, it got a lot easier for me (like how when you start a face, you start with a circle and two perpendicular lines through it, it made no sense to me at first until I watched it step by step and thought of it as a process). Other things that are smaller, like an object instead of a person, I use my artistic side and I just remember from memory in which I'm better than her.

I think it just depends if your a more mathematical or artistic person, so yeah, you can be "born with it" but anyone can learn to do it with little tricks that my seem insignificant but can truly help (like instead of trying to learn to draw a face all at one, you learn to draw the head shape or eyes the way you want it first).

Hoped that help, but sadly, I have no scanner to show you the difference (though there is a big one).

Originally Posted by TheSoundTheory

I read somewhere once that we have a part of our brains that's mathematical, and part that is artistical. Most of use are inclined to use more of one part than the other

Yeah, I've read that your dominant hand influences which side of the brain you prefer. I've heard that lefty artists have better artistic ability because the left hand corresponds with the artistic side of the brain, but I wonder if that's true or not.

Well, I'm a lefty and I disagree with that stereotype entirely. I love drawing and being creative, but being a lefty is more of a pain than anything when it comes to drawing for example- because you have to go out of your way and keep the work from smudging depending on the amount of detail you're putting it.

That said, there's very few people in the world who are able to be good at something the moment they put their hand to it, and no one is born with a talent- skill like you see from professional artists comes from hard work and perseverance. The professionals you see and admire these days were once newbies too- wondering if they had what it took, but they took a bit of time every single day to practice, and they weren't afraid to make and learn from their own mistakes, or give up when they made them. Sure, some people learn faster than others- but that's not talent, that's just how their brain works differently, or a difference in how devoted they are to getting better and how much time they put in.

Yes, it's nice to have an aptitude to learn a specific thing quickly and efficiently, but just because a person might not have this ability doesn't mean that they can never rise to a professional level in skill.

No disrespect towards you or anyone else's opinions, but I believe that saying talent is a necessity to being good is just impatience on the part of working hard and persevering.

I have to say that it doesn’t matter if you have ‘talent’ or not. If you stick it out long enough, and dedicate enough time and effort to it you will get better.

Personally I think that people with ‘less talent’ make better artists. They really have to work for it. They have to know that it is a priority for them and it isn’t going to be easy. They put the pain, sweat, tears, and frustration into it. They come out as stronger people in the end with more drive and determination than someone who is just a natural.

We are always learning. Becoming a skilled artist takes years and practice. Every year that passes you will improve if you keep working at it.

Don’t be afraid to make bad drawings. For many artists – for every ‘good’ picture they create, there were 10 bad ones first.

The trick to drawing perspective is not to draw what you know is there. Draw what you see even if it seems ridiculous and exaggerated. Something closer may be massive compared to something farther away.

I'm on the fence with this. I think that you can learn how to draw or how to do any kind of art. And if you care enough to work hard, I think you can eventually develop great skills. I believe that anyone can do it, so long as they have the patience to keep working and not give up.

But, that doesn't mean they will be a great artist.

I think that there are a lot of people who are good at drawing or doing some form of art. But something that they lack is creativity, originality. I used to go to a magnet school for art when I was in high school, and a lot of people just copied other drawings. It was sad. For example, they would bring in an anime picture and just copy it. Or they would find a photo and just draw it. Did it look good? Sure. But there was nothing real. It wasn't art. It was a copy. They didn't have their own style and the work was never engaging. It was empty.( The school was horrible btw. It was really good in its first few years, but went down hill pretty rapidly.)

So yeah, I believe that anyone can learn the skill of making art, but not everyone has what it takes to be an actual artist.

And I have a lot of problems with perspective too. And I REALLY suck at drawing still life. Well actually, I'm pretty good at if it involves something interesting. But I HATE drawing bottles, boxes, chairs, etc.

Well judging from all the manga I've read and such I think every artist has their own style. If you can't do 3D stick to 2D if you feel it doesn't work. I know Realism is a problem for me, and I can't draw from memory very well. And Practice. I thought Art is whatever you make of it anyway? It seems all opinionated to me, I mean I bet there are people out there that would even Argue how bad Devinci's paintings were. Not everyone thinks the same.

I think anyone can learn to draw but that won't necessarily make them an artist.
I know lot's of people who can draw with a perfect technique. But to be an artist you need to have a certain vision. Even if you want to do draw realism.

Just like in photography, anyone can press a button on a camera and take pictures, but some just take amazing pictures.

I'm with him, you can learn, not born with it. I am artistically talented due to my mental illness and a bit of practice, not genes. No one in my family is good at art, not even the ones with mental illness. I just got the good part of my illness. (Bipolar, if you are wondering.)

Proficiency in any skill is learned. The term "natural talent" is a misnomer, although varying neural patterns are formed before birth, so it is possible in theory that one person's brain may be more conducive to a particular skill or trade.

I actually have to say, that I am, unlike everyone else, not on the fence about this subject. Talent is what ever you are initially good at from the start. This can be dancing, drawing, acting, crying, Running, etc ,etc and so on and so forth. "talent" can be wasted away by not using it.

I think people who have "talent" at something is because they are naturally inclined to want to do these things, thus making them more comfortable with going thought he motions that someone with less talent, or less drive.

Just because someone doesn't have the same drive to work hard at their art, or are just being lazy doesn't mean that they can't draw outstanding things, it just takes time and patience. And a hell of a lot of practice.

Think of it this way, have you ever tried to draw something that you've never actually seen in real life, like a koala bear? We all know what a koala bear looks like, but once we get the pencil to the paper, our brains start thinking about where things need to go. It's hard to draw something that you don't see on a regular basis. So looking at reference a lot can really help, search images on google or yahoo or what ever preferred search engine that you prefer to use. Don't be afraid to have many pictures to the side to look at for referencing (drawing from life). Pictures are a great reference because you don't have to worry about them getting tired of staying in the same place and you don't have to worry about your perspective changing when you decided to sit a different way. :)

I can say, from personal experience, I used to have a mirror I could move around on my floor and I would sit in front of it when i needed to see how a part of my body looked a different way. that way I could get the angles and perspectives that I needed the most. Hands and feet were always my bane, and I found the mirror to be my best friend when it came to referencing my own hand and foot structure.

Don't be afraid to break your image down into shapes to make it easier to see what you are doing. I used to hate using shapes, still do for the most part, but I do use them on a regular basis, especially for body limbs.

Now a days I find myself still using mirrors, my cellphone, my camera, for my own body structure. and for those poses that I have a hard time with myself, i have a habit of going to Posemaniacs.com The site is really really helpful when it come to poses and to getting things that rotate so that you can get them in the position that you want them in.

When it comes to fantasy creatures that aren't actually around, the best way to draw them with reference is to reference real life animals, take from parts of their bodies to help with your structure of the creature you want to create. Most fantasy creatures are bases of of real life animals to begin with.

Dragons can be related to lizards, salamander, snakes, horses, Some deep sea creatures, Dogs, cats, even weasels. it all depends on how you want your body structure to look.

Unicorns and Pegasus are generally related to horses, but it is the other attributes that you would look towards referencing, the wings can be any type of feathered fowl/birds.
And the horns can be referenced from narwhals, Horned lizards, giraffes (even though the have two horns), rhinoceros, elk, moose, dear, ibex. and even though the majority of these animals have two or more horns, take a good look at the structure and you can break them down into smaller areas to get what you are looking for.

I have to say that antlers are the hardest thing for me right now, because they twist and turn in different directions (lots of perspective there).

Mermaid and Mermen are comprised ow generally two creatures, a human upper half, and a fish like lower bottom. So the array of Mer-people you could come up with is a very, very larger amount. And from here you could create a whole menagerie of sea monsters.

But the biggest thing you have to remember is, every drawing is two-dimensional when you have just an outline. Things start to have that real fleshy three-dimensional look when you are color, or you are shading. The composition of dark and light is what makes something look three-dimensional. Things further away from the light source will be darker, and those close to the light source will be lighter. Metal is shiny and almost white where the light comes from, and the rest of the metal absorbs the colors around it.
Flesh is very not shiny, but it is very reflective. out skin reflects a lot of colors around us, and can sometimes make it a little harder to decided how something should look.

Don't be afraid to contrast when it comes to shading, it's ok to use dark colors. and try to think of the colors around your things that you are drawing to give that three-dimensional look to. it's going to sort of absorb the colors from the walls and objects around it. So you want to incorporate these colors when coloring it in.

So my best advices are these:
- Use lots of reference that you can instantly look at while you are drawing
- Use shapes even though they are a pain in the butt at times
- Remember where your light source/sources are. (even draw a little circle or cut a circle or arrow out to point in the direction of or to represent where your light source is)
- Remember that you Shade are co-dependent on where your light sources are
- Don't be afraid o use contrasting colors
- And most important of all. Know when to take a break and to back away from your art, so that you can let your brain rest for a moment so that you can take it all in. That way you can see the bigger picture as well as the small details. Brain breaks are always good to have.

Sometimes we get too caught up on the small details that we have a hard time making the whole picture come out like who we want it. and out brain will get tired and lazy.

Drawing takes a lot of hand to eye coordination. Some days we can draw an awesome circle, and other days, the closest you can get to a circle is an oval. Some days are just harder than other day. So it defiantly takes a lot of time and patience.

But yeah, I think that anyone, no matter if they have talent or now, with enough effort and dive then can create outstanding art. And I do hope that what I have I offered to you helps out :) Don't be frustrated if things to come out the way you want them to right away. it takes time.

oh and now that I think of it, as for left and right sides of the brain, You have to remember, that the left side controls the right side of the body, and the right side of the brain controls the left side of the body. and I think like only 10 percent of people are left handed. so and don't think the dominate hand side controls what your bodies talents will be. Our brain is hardwired from birth, and then we are programed by our parents, after that school, and beyond that we program the rest of ourselves.

So I think it really comes down to drive, and not being too critically hard on yourself, remember to relax and give yourself time :) and you will get where you eventually want to be.

Originally Posted by keres corvax

oh and now that I think of it, as for left and right sides of the brain, You have to remember, that the left side controls the right side of the body, and the right side of the brain controls the left side of the body. and I think like only 10 percent of people are left handed. so and don't think the dominate hand side controls what your bodies talents will be. Our brain is hardwired from birth, and then we are programed by our parents, after that school, and beyond that we program the rest of ourselves.

Actually, the left brain/right brain personality theory is, for the most part, hogwash. Some functions, language for example, use one hemisphere more than the other depending on which is your dominant hand, but most functions are carried out using symmetrical portions of the brain's hemispheres. The notion that a creative person predominately uses his right hemisphere is archaic and untrue.

Your idea that the brain is "hardwired from birth" is only partially correct. The equipment is all there, but nothing is quite wired together, if that makes sense. At birth we do have all the neurons we ever will, but the connections that exist between them are weak. When we learn, we strengthen those connections, thus any skill or talent we have must be learned. However, since we may be given varying neural patterns to start with, it is plausible that one person could have a better potential for artistic talent than another.

Anyone can learn art.
Just look around on the net.

How I see it:

Drawing : a SKILL that you can developed.

Art : this is CREATIVITY. And creativity is not merely honed with skill. It is inborn , genuine already with a person. No matter how skilled a person is, creativity is still different. Yes you may have the skill, but do you have the talent to introduce something unique? innovative? and could pull at heartstrings? This is a combination of both. Just saying.

This is like: genius VS hardwork.