i kind of agree with tirael, the yummy pudding that tir is. there's so much out there. and a lot of it can be totally not based on reality ... like abstract arts... (droplets of paints on the canvas, whut)... which, though i don't pretend to comprehend and certainly not one of my palates, can be a valid form of an art style to many other people.

anyway. styles aside.... it's really quite disappointing to see an artclass to conform to a bias. pb's choice of self expression shouldn't be penalised in an artclass, since art - in a way - IS a way of self expression.

(whutwhutlolz, loves the sarcasmfest mah pretties *___*)

(^__________^)

ProdigyBombay, I am in love with your anime style, I honestly am. And I believe it is not so much you they discriminate against...
It's just now that the anime craze has festered in America, most art teachers assume that a student who draws anime does not have the talent to portray any reality.
I had a friend who did amazing anime style pieces but she added a realistic touch on them. She also did some amazing still life pieces as well. I guess art teachers just take students like you for granted, which really sucks because you're not getting the credit you totally deserve.

There are, however, students at my school who strctly draw anime and call it art. I wouldn't argue against it so much if their anime was actually good, but it isn't. The only solution to end the discrimination between the two genres would be to offer an anime/manga drawing class (which my school used to do as an after school lesson).

And as far as figures go, both require a sense of anatomy...only most anime exagerates a bit.

I don't know about me personally...I've lately been obsessing with Art Nouveau, but am a major realist. However my Art Nouveau inspired pieces have a anime-esque spin on them, which I don't know whether or not will hurt me for the AP exam.

Originally Posted by [Amphorae

]I don't know about me personally...I've lately been obsessing with Art Nouveau, but am a major realist. However my Art Nouveau inspired pieces have a anime-esque spin on them, which I don't know whether or not will hurt me for the AP exam.

Hmm, everyone has raised valid points. As for an anime-esque spin on art hurting you on the AP exam, I'd say that wholly depends on which category you're planning to submit to. I did the 2d design portfolio and submitted a few anime-esque pieces in my portfolio to the AP exam, and still got a 5. Although I would say, don't try it if you're going to do the fine arts portfolio. I think 2d design definitely gives you a lot more flexibility.

@PB i don't disagree with you, there is a select few number of people who can do both and whether they start using one style or the other. it doesn't matter what they did first because the outcome is still magnificent. that still is not normal or average, though i am only speaking from my experience. i have seen anime people all through all my artistic life - fine arts hs, through college, tutoring and in my professional experience. from what i recall, i only came across one person who managed to do both really really well. it's really a lot rarer than it seems, it's rare enough as it is to find anyone with an once of talent let alone someone who can do both styles well.

Originally Posted by magaly

@PB i don't disagree with you, there is a select few number of people who can do both and whether they start using one style or the other. it doesn't matter what they did first because the outcome is still magnificent. that still is not normal or average, though i am only speaking from my experience. i have seen anime people all through all my artistic life - fine arts hs, through college, tutoring and in my professional experience. from what i recall, i only came across one person who managed to do both really really well. it's really a lot rarer than it seems, it's rare enough as it is to find anyone with an once of talent let alone someone who can do both styles well.

Perhaps DA gives me a skewed sense of the number of people who can draw both realism and anime well, but I don't think its as rare as you say, that it is only the select few. Yes, many people who draw anime as a hobby find it difficult when they have to turn around and draw realism, but I have seen my fair share those who take art seriously, but still like to draw anime. If you know Poli-chan fron gaia, both she and I had the same private art teacher, and we both took several years of traditional art classes with this teacher...meaning we did still lifes, watercolors, and oil paintings. And yet, both of us enjoyed using the things we learned to in turn, draw anime. And we weren't the only ones in that class who had the same diverse interests.

I feel that taking realism classes made a huge difference in how fast I improved in drawing anime. Even with CG, the oil painting that I did in my traditional drawing class taught me about painting, and I could in turn translate what I had picked up in class and put it onto a digital canvas.

Over the summer two years ago, I took a summer course at SVA for Cartooning and Illustration. And many/most of the people in my class were influenced at least a bit by the anime/manga style. However, this didn't mean that we were incapable of drawing realism just because it was a class on cartooning and illustration. At the same time that we were receiving instruction in paneling and inking, we also had marathon 6 hour figure drawing classes with nudes.

Drawing anime isn't just about drawing the lines and then filling them in, there s a definite technique and style that goes into it, which each artist develops over the course of years. Even just looking at the mini-art community on mene, you find that each artist has a different style, even though most, if not all are influence, even if in part, by anime.

Yes, in the work place today, there is a bias against anime. However, I feel that things are slowly changing. As our generation, which grew up watching sailormoon and pokemon slowly trickles into the working class, things might begin to change. Perhaps they are already changing. I really hope so.

>.< I don't get why people hold up realism on this pedestal-- Why is it the end all be all of figure art/illustration? Huh? Why MUST you be good at realism if what you want to do is anime/manga?

Most of the artists I know who are just hobbyists don't study realism as much as an art student because all they really want to is one genre--those who want to do other things learn it.

Most of the artists I know who went to (or wanted to go to) art school had to do realism and if not the best at it at least have a profficient knowledge and passable ability.

Those anime artists I know who are bad at realism never spent much time studying it--it's not what they want to draw so it's not what they draw. How can you be good at it if you never studied it? To get good at anime you must learn how to draw it--to learn realism you must learn to draw it. You can be good at anime without learning strict realism.


But to say "Oh well you draw anime so you must be bad at realism" is discriminatory. Every person is different. To be so general about it doesn't make sense--everyone should be given the benefit of the doubt.

I very much sympathize with your dealings with teachers and their reactions to anime. When I was in high school, I had an art teacher that, at first, I adored. I thought what he said was law, that he was brilliant and that everything was just wonderful. At first, he was patient with me drawing anime, and I'd even go so far as to come to him on my free time to ask for help with anatomy, coloring, shadows and so forth. (He did make a weird comment that I remember, which was that he saw very few girls drawing anime or comic book art and that it was strange to him to see me into it. I've seen just the opposite, though. It's only been girls I've met who are into anime art... but anyway.) But as he kind of took me under his wing, he started really discouraging the anime thing.

He would criticize it as inferior, forbade me to draw anything similar to that style during class (which I had never done anyways) and went so far as to tell my parents that it was for my own good that they force me to stop drawing cartoons. He felt that I was "wasting" my talent. My parents were so angry with him that they skipped him during subsequent parent-teacher conference meetings.

I think it was largely because of my experience with him that I never felt any inclination to go into art professionally, and it's also why I hide my artwork from people I don't know well. I'm a Japanese major and I hide my artwork and hobbies from my classmates and teacher because I'm afraid they'd take me less seriously if they knew. My artwork is a lot more western influenced now because of my interest in superhero comics as of late, but it's still got that anime tint to it that over the years I've struggled to squash out because I've been told so many times that I'll be looked down on for it.

I love drawing cartoons/anime, and I love drawing realism, but my opportunities for realism are sadly very limited. I love drawing people more than anything else, but I get really worked up over the details and I prefer to have a live model... and it's kind of hard to talk my friends and family into sitting still for 4+ hours. I'm a painfully slow realism artist, and a very fast cartoonist. Therefore, I draw cartoons more frequently, more comfortably, and I think it's my stronger side.

Originally Posted by ProdigyBombay

Hmm, everyone has raised valid points. As for an anime-esque spin on art hurting you on the AP exam, I'd say that wholly depends on which category you're planning to submit to. I did the 2d design portfolio and submitted a few anime-esque pieces in my portfolio to the AP exam, and still got a 5. Although I would say, don't try it if you're going to do the fine arts portfolio. I think 2d design definitely gives you a lot more flexibility.

Yes, that's actually the portfolio I'm working on this year. Thank you.

• It really irks me when people make the assumption that I'm not a good artist at all because I prefer to draw anime/manga style over realism. I find realism incredibly boring unless someone is in a good pose or has a great facial expression. Bone structure also plays a roll in my willingness to draw realistically.
  
  In high school, I was discriminated against in my drawing class for doing a few projects in the anime style. It's just that kind of feel I wanted to achieve, and she never gave me the score I deserved for what I did with the project.
  
  It also kind of pissed me off that my storyboarding teacher made a 'no anime' rule, when my style is a hybrid of realism/anime. D;
  
  They truly don't believe that it takes talent to do anime/manga style because I'm sure they never catch any of the good stuff, like the Miyazaki movies, Cowboy Bebop or Samurai Champloo(or any other well animated/drawn animes), but instead catch things like InuYasha and Full Metal Alchemist that have less animation quality and a lot of the time don't consider how a person truly moves and acts like some of the better ones do.
  
  Bah, I just wish that they could get over themselves and accept that different people have different styles, and not everyone likes/appreicates JUST realism, even though realism influences a lot of the better anime/manga artists. The only things that are truly different are facial structures/layouts.
  
  Not to mention that it's just incredibly ironic that they love disney, but hate anime, when disney is purposely disproportionate with certain aspects of a character anymore, then there are things like Tim Burton's animations and the Pixar stuff that purposely distort figures, but are still well received. D;
  
  It's like they secretly have a grudge against artists that are influenced by Japan or something. D;

I don't get why people undrecredit realism, though. Like, it's the basis to teach a lot of skills - the way anatomy works, color works, line works, almost everything works. And anime hobbyists shove is aside so often - like, "I dont' need that." or worse "I don't feel like doing that." That's like saying "I don't need to learn algebra to do calculus." A lot of the concepts are differnet, but a lot are also necessarily the same.

It's practice, and trying new things that'll help you improve, help your anime improve. Some people just aren't willing to expand. :/

IMHO, botha nime and realism are stepping stones to creativting an individuality, and individual style. And I say anime's reputation comes from the fact htat it's "cartoons" 9and cartoons are for kids), it's often simpler, and there are TOO MANY GODDAMN WEEABBOOS.

Originally Posted by fongmingyun

I don't get why people undrecredit realism, though. Like, it's the basis to teach a lot of skills - the way anatomy works, color works, line works, almost everything works. And anime hobbyists shove is aside so often - like, "I dont' need that." or worse "I don't feel like doing that." That's like saying "I don't need to learn algebra to do calculus." A lot of the concepts are differnet, but a lot are also necessarily the same.

It's practice, and trying new things that'll help you improve, help your anime improve. Some people just aren't willing to expand. :/

IMHO, botha nime and realism are stepping stones to creativting an individuality, and individual style. And I say anime's reputation comes from the fact htat it's "cartoons" 9and cartoons are for kids), it's often simpler, and there are TOO MANY GODDAMN WEEABBOOS.

There's a difference between understanding realism and spending a great deal of time doing realism. I can still understand anatomy, perspective, value/contrast without doing hardcore realism.

I don't need to draw realistic portraits to know how a face is structured--sure it helps, but it's not necessary for everyone.

It boils down to how well you can apply a sense of reality to your stylization. If you need to study realism to do that... then do that. If you don't... why should people harp on you to do so?

If you can still learn the basics while doing anime, though anime and what you're drawing is anime... why not?

Before coming on the web, I didn't knew there was so much problem betwen the too. For me, both are creating and make other people enjoying it.
Art is being made for other people to appreciate it so I don't see wy we all need to put barrier betwen them.

It's like a sort of racism but for art and some people don't even realize this.

They only think that prejudice are bad if it's on race basis but it's wrong everywhere >.< and in every domains !

It happens in a lot of domain anyway. I saw lots of people saying that comic books were stupid because they only read a bad one... ut when they read a bad book, they just try to find another bettter one !

Originally Posted by GainaSpirit

It's like a sort of racism but for art and some people don't even realize this.

They only think that prejudice are bad if it's on race basis but it's wrong everywhere >.< and in every domains !

Lol. I think you're going a bit overboard there.

Anyhow, uhm, all those poepl who're like "it's just copying what you see in real life!" It's not - like, many religious paintings are done in realism style without direct refere.ce

woef: XDD maybe they mean copying real life-style? 8D;; I mean people say anime style is just copying other peoples style and if you follow that line of logic... realism is more of a copy of what you see than anime... something like that.

I think drawing realism requires a really different sort of eye to be applied to the work. It's not comparable to eyeballing someone else's drawing and copying it that way, and it's certainly by no means easier or less demanding of the artist. XD;

Neither anime or realism are inherently unoriginal. Unless you really are tracing, in which case... that's bad art no matter what style you fancy.

• I guess I'm lucky, because my teacher almost, favours me not doing realism permanently. Even though I'm as good at it, as I am Anime. (I've been life drawing since I was 10 xD Anime since I was almost 13) To be honest, I'm a little rebel in my art class at school (XD) whenever I get told to do something, i don't do it. Everything I do tends to be stylised, depending on my mood, that can be a bad thing, or a good thing xD
  
  I get pissed off severely, when i'm told I can't draw, because I draw anime. I don't even draw anime big eye styled anyways. (Someone once told me I couldn't draw because of that, seriously) That time, really did piss me off, I've heard people say I copy peoples style. (What marilyn mansons clothing style? xD) And Many things and been called unoriginal. I'm strong willed and stubborn, so those things pissed me off.
  
  I think it's unfair to say against either, because i like drawing both style, whenever I want to. If I'm painting on the other hand, I'll prefer realism thats stylised. I also hate being told to reference, other than maybe a pose. I just dislike it and I'm always asked where I got my reference from, because most of the time, all I can say is, I looked at my hands for the hands and my feet for the feet and thats it. I have no image to show you.
  
  I also found it odd, I started to understand the human body and anatomy a lot better while i was studying and drawing anime styled art. Generally because, I was understanding more about anatomy and the basics and slightly beyond. I learned some basic perspective doing anime art and I prefer it to realism, although i do like stylised realism, which I draw for school. i found that while I was trying(and failing) to study realism it didn't work for me with anatomy, science class with musicle groups and one of those bone manakin things, helped me, because if a bone and tendon and thingy that attatches it, can't move that way unless its broken, it can't move that way. (strange? hope I wasn't rambling too much)
  
  I think both have very good points to them, but just because you draw one, doesn't mean you can't draw the other equally as well. A perfect example would be my art class teacher about a year and a half ago, she asked me to draw something, that was sitting in front of me. I drew a hat and some other things. When I'd finished, she told me that she was worried that me drawing anime had weakened my ability to draw realism, and that she didn't think i'd be very good at it, but then she said that she was sorry and obviously from the picture I'd drawn, it hadn't, she even said she thought i'd improved. Since then, I've improved a lot in both fields. And Just because you drawn anime, doesn't mean you can't draw realism.

Uhm. I think it's bad to not reference. Period. You're shafting yourself of a useful resource. You don't have to do it ALL the time (heck, I'm lazy, I do it only for things I REALLY want to look good), but referencing is useful - and is generall considered a good thing (I'd consider you very lucky if you had a model to pose for you, it's really hard to get my friends to take ref shots for me). Nobody's really 'above' referencing, even for stylistic excuses. My guess is people who're telling you to reference are trying to help you. I think the reason you were understanding anatomy better when you did anime was because you were forced to do things without a reference. I mean, I started that way, but I went back to realism figure drawing, and now I understand so much more and the realism has built on top of the anime.

My art teacher said, "Don't show anyone your humanoid work until you've been doing it for ten years." People are so akin to thier own bodies. So mistakes are usually spotted quickly by anyone ("doesn't take a chef to know the soup is bad" - Dan Howard). Referencing helps minimize that, i feel.

That said... Ii understood anatomy best when I went to the trainer at the gym and he explained how muscles work :p And went online and looked up more infromation about the human body. Lol, most of the stuff I use in art, I rarely learn in art class. Color theory, learned from Communications. Perspective, I learned in Geometry. Art's not, well, art-subject alone. It's really interdiscipliary.

That said, I generally believe that the thing you have to do in addition to taking down other peoples' "art predjudice" walls is to take down your own. Don't think you can stylize everything as you see fit. Don't think that because you draw anime, you are utter crap in terms of realism. The best thing is to master both and everything in between no matter your preference. For me, learning how to draw involves being able to put anything I imagine down onto the paper or canvas - abstract, realism, anime, or whateverthehell. True style comes from choice of subject and the overall message a painting has.

• I think its true in some cases that people cannot switch between two style seemlessly. I started out in realism by doing portraits and drawign people from teenage magazines, then I got the anime fever and haven't been able to go back since.
  
  For example, my friend http://matthewmarcotte.deviantart.com is really awesome at doing art from observation in my figure drawing class, but as you can see in his gallery, his anime is not so great.
  
  I think that if you practice equally in both styles than its easier to switch between the two. ITs really something I have got to work on. I've drawn straight up anime for too long. XD
  
  

I'd just like to say AMEN to what woe said 8'D...

Another thing that's kinda offtopic is the assumption that only people who are great artists or draw in the same style can give credible feedback. I don't think this is true at all. Most people know when something looks good or is horribly wrong, especially in relation to humans. They may not be able to express it in artistic terms but they can still notice the mistakes.

And I learned about color usage in literature class >3>... as well as design class of course <3.





LunaMiel: that may be the difference between observational skills and fully understanding the human body. Someone may be able to copy what they see from observation but to understand why the shadow falls that way or the structure underneath the object is another matter... the understanding can be applied to both realism and anime or whatever style you choose... of course observation leads to understanding, but it's not instantaneous~

I agree with you, Tirael, about people who aren't great artists still being able to give critiques. My husband doesn't draw at all and yet, in pretty much every picture I do, I pull him over to the computer and sit back and say, "What's wrong with it?" and he can proceed to tell me every little thing I missed! Sometimes he can't always determine exactly what's off, but more times than not, he's instantly able to see a line, some shading, a curve, whatever, that needs to be adjusted where I've been sitting and staring at it for hours, knowing it was off, but not knowing exactly why. He just has a good eye for that sort of stuff.

Originally Posted by LunaMiel

I think that if you practice equally in both styles than its easier to switch between the two. ITs really something I have got to work on. I've drawn straight up anime for too long. XD

[/b][/list]

Agreed. I've been doing straight-up too long, too. I don't consider my work realism.

But nevertheless, i think we can all agree it's a mix of obeservation and understanding - it's not like you can do one without the other.

Gah, Aleina, you're lucky. I wish I had someone like that, lol. I harass Dan a lot about WIPs, though.

*generally agrees*

woe: i dont use reference at all. almost ever. i really need to, i know, but i suck at it... once i tried to draw a likeness from someone and he becomes mutantapocalypsevictimlike... T_T.... *gonks in the corner and tries harder*

there's something about ref that makes me inhibited, as if i have to conform to the 'guide' and my stupid inner untrained mind rebels against it :(. i really should have never gone on too long without referencing... but now it become harder and harder.......... awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

*gets off the moanbox and lurks again in the corner*

(XD)

(I watch you on Deviant art... ^_^)

Ha ha, anyway...

Your teacher has some serious issues. At my highschool, the teachers don't mind if you draw anime, as long as it's not for their class. The kids who draw anime well are generally well respected... Those who can do Anime and realism are doubly respected... Though we do have kids who can draw one, but not the other... (Sorry, that was a wee bit off topic.)

As to your teacher... what a jerk, I must say! That's an incredibly rude thing to do to a student, not to mention petty.

I think that both art forms can be equally difficult, depending on the circumstances... Especially if the anime peice is considerably detailed.

My personal style is somewhat anime/realism. I do mostly designing... however, my art teacehr likes my style... Sh just hates the way I paint... because I can't paint in acrylics...

Oh yes, one more thing... I have a hard time with some types of realism (self portrait for example...) because of my different style. However, all the groundwork is there... I just need to work at it more. I just have more fun drawing like I normally do ^_^