I realized just today that a great deal of realistic artists (and a lot of non-realistic too) use grids to make sure their art lines up with their subject. I've been reluctant to use this technique myself, because it's so close to tracing. But I'm thinking I may be handicapping myself needlessly.

So does the end justify the means? How important is the journey, next to the final result? After all, no one veiwing the picture is going to know whether you spent weeks learning to truly visualize something, or if you just used a model. When does it just become copying?

I've never had a problem with using a grid, and my art teacher doesn't. And she's a fairly sensible person. ^_^

The main purpose of the grid is really just to keep things in proportion. It's almost the same as if you hold up your pencil to measure parts of a still life to make sure they look all right next to each other. And even when you get the basic outline of the shapes down, it takes a lot of skill to shade everything properly.

Also, I don't think that an artist who draws straight from their imagination is necessarily better than an artist who draws using a model.

I never use a model and I never use grids. I usually do artwork just for the sake of enjoying it.

I consider it cheating, as do I with most layering editing and digital effects used in things like Photoshop. Mostly because I'm old fashioned like that, I guess. When I've been doing alot of artwork that I want to undo a line on, I usually can't do the same on paper so I try not to let it become a habit.

Handicapping myself? More than likely. Do I feel prouder about my works even though they suck more than the others? Absolutely.

Most professional portraiture[other] artist doesn't have the time and luxury to play around or wait for inspirations, cause they are always piled up with works & commissions, so they use grid to speed up their working pace. Grid is also used if you are about to replicate someone else artworks.

But for a hobbyist or starving artist who has the time to play around with their works and can afford to wait for inspirations, they don't need the use of a grid... cause they can be considered as "lazy artist" yes it can cripple your improvement, cause it suppress your expressions and for being creative[you are tied to what the grid tells you] I suggest to avoid using it.

Violet: Pencil measuring occurred to me too. The only difference in an increase in accuracy.
I think I agree. There are wonderful works in both methods. It's like the difference between classical and experimental theater.
But not really. That's a stretch.

Avaedan: I've felt the same way for years. And I get so much joy out of being able to say I've done something without a guide. Or without any effects. Or with only a mashed up crayon. ^^
So is that pride I have helping me? Or is it holding me back? Am I doing this for myself? Am I conveying what I want to convey this way? Am I (in theater terms) taking care of my audience?
Probably the answer is a happy medium as always. I'm glad I'm not the only one who carries these old fashioned values.

Tal: That makes a lot of sense.
The goal is different. The professional goal is the end product.
The experimentalist has the goal... I guess it depends on the person. Perhaps to improve. Perhaps something else.
So the question is, maybe... What is my goal in art?

I've avoided it for so long, I wonder if I might discover something new about drawing by using it. I have some nasty habits in my drawing, and I wonder if using a grid once or twice on something I have already attempted might be a way to isolate and correct these.
One supposes there is a happy medium.

Being able to draw a full artwork in pen in 20 minutes during class while people watch in amazement is a pretty fun thing, honestly. I got plenty of compliments afterward. The best part is that it was on regular lined notebook paper - just started out as a sketch.

I think the value of the medium itself has disintegrated. People only care about the outcome because that's all they see.

They never see time, effort, or efficiency hardly at all. Personally, I'm more of an animator so I don't spend alot of time on one frame of artwork, because I know it's just one frame.

With that mindset in my head, I tend to make my artworks less complex. I learned proportion through tips, hints, guides and drawing it out, but some people learn better through doing the artwork with a model or frame of reference.

The only thing I hate about tracing or copying someone else's artwork is that you tend to learn everything and anything of that artwork in the artist's style and only their style and it becomes a hard habit to break. You lose your own style.

Originally Posted by Penny

I've avoided it for so long, I wonder if I might discover something new about drawing by using it. I have some nasty habits in my drawing, and I wonder if using a grid once or twice on something I have already attempted might be a way to isolate and correct these.
One supposes there is a happy medium.

Nothing is wrong in trying :D but there is nothing much to it, but as an artist... grab all the knowledge and experience you can get *nod* there are things far worst than grid, things like rotoscoping yet it was not considered as cheating.

Yeah, rotoscoping is the same way to me. But I guess regarding to the same subjects, if you perfected your own work at drawing something to the best it could be,it would be just as realistic as the enviroment you're drawing it from.

Which you could just as easily take a picture for the same effect.

But then there's always style. :wink:

Tal: So that's why Gulliver looks so perfect... Crazy.

Perhaps in conjunction with some other techniques. Like building a frame through a grid and then detailing. That might be of more use knowledge-wise than flat out copying.

Avaedan: For sure. Nothing like a good high class classroom doodle to make on feel like something special.

Perhaps there's a way to bring the focus to the process visually... I need to write that down and make that a goal. Someday I will be able to show people what I'm going through when I draw. I don't know how that'll possibly work.

Indeed. It is another way to process the issue. I'm chock full of guidelines and rules (whether they're conscious or not) But I still miss a lot. Maybe I'm one of the model people. *shrugs*
I'd prefer to draw from my head.

I disagree strongly with copying anyone else's artwork. Grid or no. That's definitely passed my personal ethical line of cheating. I see absolutely no reason to copy art. Photos can be used as bases for new ideas, and guides for proportions and such. Photos can be learning tools. But if one copies something that came from some one else's head-- one has no business copying something that came from someone else's head. It's their head, their thoughts.

@ Avaedan: you have a sound principles with art, keep it up! :D

@ Penny: ahhh but there are art collectors who would want to have the work of the masters hanging on their walls :twisted: since most of them don't have enough funds to buy the original arts, they will commission professional artist to make replicas or copy of artworks of the masters like Da Vinci, Rembrandt etc... and it is much cheaper that way >_<;

Everything has its use, that is why it is best that you learn it[Grid] as well, but not to use it for your regular basis in creating art. maybe not for the sake of art itself, but for your financial benefits :D who knows, you might encounter an art patron who is willing to pay handsomely for a Van Gogh replica. :twisted:

Ach. You've got me there. Money trumps principles for starving artists. Though that's another can worms. ^^

Artist are making money out of it http://www.canvasreplicas.com/Canvas...troduction.htm

You can't blame them, they too need bread on their table and money to pay the bills. that is why it's best to have other profession[career] to support your life as an artist :D

Aw... poor artists...
I'd hate myself if I had to do that for a living. Ah what we do for food. Then again. Better than asking if you want fries with that all day.

it sounds like you're thinking that a technique to help improve realism and accuracy would be considered, "cheating"--which it's anything but.
if you get a client who wants an accurate picture drawn of a man or woman, what do you use?
models and grids.

these systems have been used for as long as artists have been putting portraits on canvas.

are you saying that artists like vermeer and picasso (when he was still doing realism) are, "cheating," because they had models coming into their studios so they could paint them?

@Avaedan
as an artist who uses both traditional and digital media, i've never considered using digital art programs to be cheating. it takes the same amount of time and effort to complete a picture in photoshop as it does to sketch it out on a piece of paper.

:/

I am definitely not suggesting such a thing.

I am laying out a question to see what other people's views are. As well as questioning my own motives for wanting to draw.

So obviously, modeling from life is not cheating. Nor measuring. And from measuring grids are a small step. What are your views on modeling from photos though? And how far is grid work from tracing? (When) Is that okay?

Not loaded questions here. Just wondering, as I don't really have this worked out myself.

In my experience, it takes less time and effort to make something look passable on the computer than in traditional mediums. But it takes just as much time to make a masterpiece (something I have only witnessed :( ).
Computer programs, it seems to me, make some easy shortcuts for mediocre work, but the great stuff still shines through the same way that it does in material mediums.

actually, if you hang out on some serious art forums, you'll find that many of the artists on there use photos of models as anatomy references (or whatever) for whatever they need. not only is it hard to get a good model in for you, it's also very expensive for an up-and-coming artist.
a friend of mine is a tattoo artist who specializes in doing portrait work, and she needs to use the actual photo of the person, and often, needs to use lines or grids to fit the piece for the person's body.

from my experience, grids are best used for resizing pictures without shopping them. they're a pain in the ass, but they work.

i would consider it cheating if someone laid a piece of blank paper down over a piece of completed artwork and just traced it--but that's obvious.

whenever i use photo references poses or anatomy, i always state that i used that reference out of fairness to the photographer and model.
i do, however, think it's unfair for an artist to use a picture in the same way (or in a similar way) as i do but not state that they at least used a reference.

& about the photoshop issue...
if you consider adding lots of lensflare to a shabbily colored piece of lineart passable, you're easily won. it takes me the same amount of time, if not longer to create and/or color lineart in photoshop as it does to do in traditional media.
the only major advantage of using photoshop is that, if you make a mistake, you can create multiple layers and delete the layer you made the mistake on instead of going through the hassle of erasing a bunch of crap on paper.

:P

For avatar art I use people's models..because..that's what they want. other than that I don't.

I don't know how to grid so I can't really say much on that.. lol. I think using a model for poses is okay but tracing and etc..no not really. I mean you have to know how the body would look, and can even use yourself as a model..

Fact is, artists have been using many things to help their art look better..not just with computers though.. um.. I'm sure you could probably guess *nods* Some people are just good at looking then doing..

My drawings never turn out like I want them.. then when I have no idea about how I want them to be they turn out better than I thought they would.

Many people use short cuts.. I don't for like...drawing stuff..that's why it takes me so long to do a lot of things.

edit: I thought you were talking about a computer grid system XD lol..anyway the drawing grid thing.. I don't like it.. It's..yucky.. I rather free hand things, but it's good if your trying to get a pose down or something.

Originally Posted by organique

actually, if you hang out on some serious art forums, you'll find that many of the artists on there use photos of models as anatomy references (or whatever) for whatever they need. not only is it hard to get a good model in for you, it's also very expensive for an up-and-coming artist.
a friend of mine is a tattoo artist who specializes in doing portrait work, and she needs to use the actual photo of the person, and often, needs to use lines or grids to fit the piece for the person's body.

from my experience, grids are best used for resizing pictures without shopping them. they're a pain in the ass, but they work.

i would consider it cheating if someone laid a piece of blank paper down over a piece of completed artwork and just traced it--but that's obvious.

whenever i use photo references poses or anatomy, i always state that i used that reference out of fairness to the photographer and model.
i do, however, think it's unfair for an artist to use a picture in the same way (or in a similar way) as i do but not state that they at least used a reference.

& about the photoshop issue...
if you consider adding lots of lensflare to a shabbily colored piece of lineart passable, you're easily won. it takes me the same amount of time, if not longer to create and/or color lineart in photoshop as it does to do in traditional media.
the only major advantage of using photoshop is that, if you make a mistake, you can create multiple layers and delete the layer you made the mistake on instead of going through the hassle of erasing a bunch of crap on paper.

:P

So we've got it leveled that we pretty much all agree professionals are not cheating, or artistically wrong to use grids or models.

Models are square with our ethical line on professional and non professional sides for 'not cheating'. At least for the majority of people we've heard from. Yes?

Perhaps passable isn't the right word. I certainly wouldn't pass such things.
Ugg.

I'm not sure what word I'm looking for. It has to do with... maybe it has more to do with what others outside of art think, and the actual merit. Which means that I'm judging artistic merit on 'what everyone else thinks' which is a terrible thing.

Why is that a terrible thing, Penny?
Because art is selfish, little voice.
Why isn't art made for them, Penny?
Because if it were, I would have to draw chibis. And I hate chibis. 'They' might love me for it, but...

there's no joy in praise without personal satisfaction first.

I use pictures as guides to help me practice, but I usually use anatomy when I'm not using pictures.

It isn't copying when you have a real subject.
It's copying when you're taking someone else's picture and drawing it. It's wrong when you're posting it and claiming you did all the hard work.

Aaah... hmm.
Especially with realism artists, this is quite necessary, using grids n' whutnot. I, and many other artists, would actually recommend using grids.
I don't really. I got out of that because it takes too much time for me.

Then again, I don't do much realistic drawing.

Do you know super-realism (art style)? They MUST use some kind of grid or measurements to get the amazing and incredibly excruciating detail that they achieve in each artpiece.

I use free stock photos and credit the artist/source if it's a seriously different pose.
If it's quite generic, like standing there with the arms by the side, I won't credit.
Quite 'legal'. Quite necessary.

Some of the people we now consider master painters used grid type things to make sure their perspective and proportion was right. I consider it a tool, though I've never really used it much.

Originally Posted by Solin

Some of the people we now consider master painters used grid type things to make sure their perspective and proportion was right. I consider it a tool, though I've never really used it much.

Yeaaah... too much work. I don't even create concept sketches. Sometimes I don't even plan out the position or create skeletons for the anatomy. I visualize everything in my head.

Too much work. >o<

It is fun, because it is included in some painting programs. And then there's the golden ratio grid.
Nice to know it's there at least.

I think the grid method is good for people who are serious about art and want to improve of getting a body or item correct in proportion. I personally was never a fan of the grid method, but I was never against it. I just never needed it when drawing.

A lot of people consider it cheating, but, I don't see it as cheating necessarily. It's a tool to keep things in balance. Drawing from perspective with out the grid is great, the artist gets a grasp of objects in a 3-D sense as opposed to someone who draws from a picture with a grid on it. Some people prefer drawing from a grid because it makes the scene 2-D and it's easier for them to see detail.

But I'm currently going to school to become an animator and I use a light table and a small grid to make sure all my images look similar and match. I'm basically tracing and using a semi grid, but it's not cheating. Lol. If that makes sense.

Animation is a beast unto its own. I think all animation and animators are excused for any methods they have to use to make their images line up. :3

Originally Posted by Penny

I realized just today that a great deal of realistic artists (and a lot of non-realistic too) use grids to make sure their art lines up with their subject. I've been reluctant to use this technique myself, because it's so close to tracing. But I'm thinking I may be handicapping myself needlessly.

So does the end justify the means? How important is the journey, next to the final result? After all, no one veiwing the picture is going to know whether you spent weeks learning to truly visualize something, or if you just used a model. When does it just become copying?

There are different kind of technique to make arts and making grid is a good way to make sure you're doing the right measurement in your art, realistically or not. Even manga/comic artists and animators use grids.