Well, I'd like to say...
While manga and anime are art forms in my opinion, they face a lot of backlash because a ton of people pass of crap as anime and manga 'art'
I don't know what you mean by anime is not art, but I would say cartoons and comics aren't usually art to me. I'd say you could take an anime styled character and draw/paint them in a very artistic way though. And it's better if it's an original character or at least an original way of portraying the character. But plain anime characters are more like doodles to me. As far as the cartoons/comics, they usually seem really cheesy to me. Not just anime but western too. I mean some comics can be considered art more so because of the literature, rather than the drawings.
Art is a feeling. To me, most of the manga is just some doodleing, drawing. But in some point manga can turn into art. And that point is when it's touching, bringing something new to your mind and inspiring.
Let me demonstrate. If you see a graffiti on a wall, saying "LOL", you thing it's just a doodle, some bored kid's hobby. But when this "LOL" is seen, I dunno, next to an advertisement of a politician's campaign, it becomes something else.It becomes an argument, it has a meaning! And to me, this is art.
It is about the context! Mona Lisa would be NOTHING without the question of her smile. Except a fine piece of art, of course. A well made doodle...
But don't get me wrong, I know and understand well people who believe art is something that pleases their eyes. My perspective is due to my hobby of studying history of art. I know when something has become art and why, so I have some really hard time watching these new technical miracles when I can't see any purpose for them. I see many of them entertaining but rare of them meaning anything deeper. With manga it's more about the story and text than about the drawing.
Last edited by Isendor; 07-14-2011 at 08:18 PM..
Reason: Oh yeah and if you're interested in the anime more, it's the same thing with it.
To be exact, they got their big eyes and skinny bodies from Betty Boop.
It is art, hell human life is an art! Then again, it's only art in the eye of the beholder. So if one says it's not, well it's not for them. And they shouldn't bash those that say it is, same goes for those that say it is. Don't bash and troll those that say it's not.
From what I understand - (and to me it's a very sad thing and makes me angry because in my opinion they are WRONG) - is that many teachers....not just art teachers....their stance/opinion = "anime/manga is not art" and they hate it or (obviously) just don't understand it , ect.
Anime is "just" the animated version of a manga series. Unfortunately many people still seem to be fixated on the idea that "cartoons" (animated features) and "comics" are "just for kids" ...same for games which is why some people refuse to believe that games can be art. (that's not true either....take Ico or Okami or the opening animated sequences to various anime/manga style games for example.)
Although an older game, I consider secret of mana / secret of mana 2 to have some really lovely graphics especially in the flying dragon (?) friend that turns against you in the end
Although not what I'd call beautiful...Silent Hill series has some amazing visuals if you like creepy run-down looking places and nightmare fuel body horror creatures.....there's another survival horror game while the rest isn't really anything special but in that game you start out in a dreamlike place and there's two blonde twin boys dressed as angels there - I consider that pretty artsy
I'm sure there's a lot more games out there that I'm forgetting the titles of or I can't describe them - there's some really neat stuff out there that you'd have to see for yourself.....
Quote:
What makes art art?
Good question!
For me, just about everything and anything that is beautiful or enjoyable is art.
Or anything that really makes you think or gets a certain emotion (or several emotions) from you.
But even then.....not all things are art.
And I agree with the other person who stated that art is subjective - everyone has different opinions on what is or isn't art, ect. blah blah blah (heh)
The bottom line is, YOU WILL NEVER find out this answer, guys. People will not change their mind about it so why even bother to really try to express it as art. Anime to me is ART, Manga is ART, anything that can be done can pretty much be called ART. So just about ANYTHING is art.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaitae
When you take into account how much work goes into realism or another style, and compare it to manga, manga is almost effortless; the bishie styles are almost a surefire way to succeed, even in the hands of someone with a small amount of skill.
SO~ This is effortless?
NONETHELESS. I would rather spend my time looking at detailed, amazing, inked art than just look a really nice painting. Manga is NOT effortless. Manga is not some easy way to get through drawing the human body. To me, manga/anime and realism are pretty much the same thing, the same anatomy just in different styles.
So in other words, saying that how much work is put into realism is less than the days or weeks it would take to make a manga novel? I would LOVE to see someone PAINT that picture that is linked in realism, right now. It would be way to difficult to do so, manga is MORE complicated than you seem to think. Of course, it's more fantasy, more unnatural but it's still pretty much as complicated as realism.
Professional manga artists are not just some lazy writers who want to find an easy way to draw a picture book. (Don't think that I am trying to be mean or anything, BUT when you say manga is effortless, this is what are you are practically saying, that manga artists are lazy blokes who just draw for the hell of it and don't try to make something great.)
Poke: Of course manga can demand for great deal of effort! Just look at Death Note! But I have to say, that compared to oil painting, it has a very simple base. It is much easier to learn and understand (but mastering is harder!) while oil painting has more details you have to note. And manga is rarely colored, which can be easily mistaken as lazyness.
And realism shouldn't even be compared with manga, manga can be any comic that is made in Japan, while realism needs an idea, a meaning and so on. I find it very unfair to demand manga fulfill same demands, it is more wider a concept. Realism can't have manga in it but manga can have realism in it, do you get what I mean?
Parinia: I can explain why teachers hate manga style. BECAUSE IT IS EVERYWHERE!!! Any style will lose its edge if everyone would be doing it, and rare would put any meaning in it (yes, many just like to draw pretty pictures!) Whenever some pupils start to draw/paint something new, they never tend to change their style or try something new. The big eyes are always there, just like the skinny appearance. (That can also annoy many female teachers: you must have noticed the ideal of beauty in these comics! Yes yes, it's part of the style, but so is photoshopping every ad or having sticks in the catwalk! It all changes the way we think.)
Many are also criticizing the mentioned huge eyes. Is it very Asian? No, it's Western (manga was inspired by Disney anyway) and it is sad to know that many Japanese and Asian girls are cutting their eyes to make them bigger, more Western! I don't blame only manga for this, but appreciating the original Asian beauty isn't very visible in manga.
And yes, some teachers even hate the way manga is written: females are bottoms, males are ruling. Even Death Note has this aspect in it. :1
Many have made the conclusion that unlike f.e realism that pointed out the bad things in this world, manga is creating ones. Of course there are mangas out there that are trying to improve things (Gintama tells about abandoning hatred, Naruto about friendships, Bleach about... BANKAI!) but these improvements are mainly thanks to the plot! The DRAWING style is the one causing bad vibes!
God I made a long post. O.O But Parinia and every other manga drawer who feel discriminated in art lessons: I understand you. Teachers should honor stick men too! (I believe that they're one of the best styles ever, it allows pretty much anyone express themselves without the pressure of the looks!) But try to understand what the teachers are facing here. They want you to have a wide aspect in art, they just have hard time fitting manga into it.
Anime/Manga is art!!!
They use pictures and Drawings to tell a story Explicitly.
Drawing people is art so why not Manga and Anime??
Everyone has different styles to drawing, even the avatars on this site are Manga-ish and i bet everyone calls them art.
I still see it as art, even if it's poularised.
There are still people who come up with very distinctive pioneering styles within manga like Murakami and Miyazaki.
Wow, this is such an interesting topic. I've really enjoyed reading everyone's points of view here. :) Personally, years and years ago I used to hate anime and manga and stuff, but I LOVED the style and began to draw based on the styles I had admired. Eventually, since I was so taken by the art and would watch the shows and read the comics all the time, I naturally grew to love it. But even within anime/manga, there are so many different styles just as there are so many different style of western cartooning and comics.
Throughout my life, I have heard many people argue that certain types of cartoons (not just anime) are not art because the style is so "sloppy" or "ugly." Personally, I disagree, since as been pointed about, art is a form or expression. When you express yourself on paper, with music, with any form of media, it is in fact art. Just because a person can argue that "the pointy noses are ugly" or "the coloring is messy" it doesn't mean it's not art.
I mean, even a bunch of paint colors plastered in messy lines on a canvas can be considered art. The people who argue that anime/manga isn't art, in my opinion, just don't like the style. There is probably something about it that irritates them, and that's fine. But they don't really have a right to argue that it's not art.
I think manga is an art style of drawing like comic book art is. personal i don't think anyone has the right to say its not an art style because people come up with new forms of art every day
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HOW IS ANIME NOT ART! YOU DRAW!!!!!!! THATS ART!!!!!!! YOU CREATE STUFF THAT'S ART!!!!!!!!! IM SORRY BUT ANIME IS ART!!!!!!! IT IS AWESOME, YOU CAN GET AN ART SCHOLARSHIP FOR IT... KEYWORD ART!!!!!!!!
ANIME IS ART! I'VE BEEN DRAWING IT FOR THREE YEARS NOW AND I HAVE COME TO LEARN PRETTY WELL THAT IS IS ART!!!!!
It IS art, but anything drawn is art.
However just because something is 'art' dpesn't mean it takes any skills. I'm an arty person, but I'm annoyed by people who claim they're brilliant artists when all the do is draw manga. That's not being an artist. Not really, not in my mind, Manga art is just the same shapes repeated over and over again, and it's shaded simply. It isn't the same as a beautiful painting of the human figure or something.
On the other hand there is some pretty terrible abstract art that is called art and that too is just shapes.
Art is what it is to the individual, to me I don't look at Manga and think "Oh what a talented artist" I think "Oh you can make shapes and shade them in? That's nice, I suppose." I do like looking at it, but I like to separate it from what i consider 'propper art'.
Some manga is better than others, I like comic style art but I think it deserves its own catagory/ a new word because it simply cannot be compaired with traditional art.
People tend to think that anime/manga is not a form of art because of how formulaic it is and how easy it is to draw. In no way do I agree with their thinking, but people whom I've run across with this opinion often say that it takes no skill to draw anime, and that there is a generic template for the way figures are drawn. For example, there is a very distinct way in which eyes are drawn, with little variation between different works of anime or manga.
In my opinion, a lot of the hatred towards anime/manga art style stems from the way in which it has influenced younger artists. Instead of developing their own style drawn from real life observations, these artists are copying the anime style in itself, resulting in a very watered down copy of the original artist's way of drawing. To be honest, it irks me a little too. It's completely okay to be influenced by anime and manga, but in the end people who call themselves "artists" need to be able to develop their own styles of drawing.
anime/mange is art. I think it's stupid for someone to say it isn't because it's popular and some not like it. I don't like these types of art but i certainly not going to say it isn't when it's not.
(For a moment, when I read the thread title, you sassed me up. Like, so hard.)
Back to the point, it doesn't matter. Everything is art. Art can be anything. Anime is just a style one would draw in, albeit very simplified compared to realistic. It still can be amazing and whether it is art or not, you use mediums to make it and it's usually not for any sort of practical, physical purpose. It is art.
On another note, anyone who said that anime ISN'T art probably needs to take a long, GOOD look at Polar Bear's Cafe.
It doesn't even have people at least 50% of the time and it stars ANIMALS. <(=n=)/
considering Damien Hurst can stick an animal in formaldehyde and call it art, I think it's silly to say anime isn't. Believe me, go to an art school and they will consider literally almost EVERYTHING art!! Art is so all inclusive now.
I'm about to graduate with a degree in art and I do a lot of anime type illustrations and my teachers love this.
I suspect that it is because so many art newbs skip to copying stuff from anime instead of learning the basics and consequently spew out loads of crappily done pictures that are very similar to other pictures everyone has seen before. But that is just a guess.
I do believe it is art even though I don't care for the style myself. As a matter of fact I have always abhorred it. But it is just because I think it is ugly, not because I don't think it takes talent. I love cartooning above all other art forms.
Art definition according to Wikipedia
" Art is a diverse range of human activities and the products of those activities; this article focuses primarily on the visual arts..."
Art definition is being disputed over time due to the rise of technology age:
"Though the definition of what constitutes art is disputed[3][4][5] and has changed over time, general descriptions mention an idea of human agency[6] and creation through imaginative or technical skill."
What is Visual Art? -acc to wikipedia
"The visual arts are art forms that create works that are primarily visual in nature, such as ceramics, drawing, painting, sculpture, printmaking, design, crafts, photography, video, filmmaking and architecture."
Video/films/media are moving type of visual art. Anime (Japanese Animation) is a series of moving japanese style pictures that is the same as video/films/media. Japanese style pictures themselves are also contain "person activities and events" and "expression of human/animals/etc nature and creativity".
Therefore, Japanese style pictures is also art. Anime containing Japanese style pictures is also art.
I would disagree with you if you say that media is not an art because art is also an "expression of nature and creativity".
I know I'm late to the party, and admittedly I'm no anime fan (though I love "Sailor Moon''). Some anime and manga are masterpieces if illustrated, animated, or written beautifully enough, and anime DOES feature beautiful artwork, even if it's not my cup of tea. However, some criticisms I've heard surrounding certain genres of manga or anime are the occasional hypersexualization of certain characters (i.e. "bishies"), even when there is no real plot to speak of, or very little plot. So I guess if anybody wanted to make arguments against anime as art, they could cite more "fluffy" or sexual pieces like that as examples.
Art is to create something using a technical skill.
For anybody to say manga isn't an art form, they need to read up on what art is, because by definition, manga is definitely art. Anime is also art, as is it animation, and animation is art.
Rant Here, lolX
Art takes the form of hundreds of things. Graphics, television, animation, singing, dancing, architecture... There are so many forms of art. You can't possibly say something isn't art, simply because you don't think it is. By definition, all of those abilities are art. Whether or not you think it's good or bad is subjective. Saying art is only art if you deem it's so, is completely wrong.
The argument about manga not being art, and anime not being art, is such a tedious, long, discussion, as most of it stems from personal opinion. Anime/Manga are just a completely different style as western cartoons and animation. Lots of people think anime/manga is easier to draw, when it actually isn't. For those who aren't practiced in it, try drawing in that style. And try doing it good. Good enough to get people to like it.
"But anime/manga is lazy compared to cartoons and comics." Yes, and no. Anime is renown for being cheap. They do close-ups all the time, and it's like 80% dialogue. So compared to western cartoons who balance out shows with action, better camera shots, and much more creative art (Avatar, Steven Universe, etc.), yeah, that's accurate. But Japan doesn't have the high standards that the west has created. And this is both good and bad for them.
There are tonnes of good animes out there that break the stereotype. Full Metal Alchemist, Soul Eater. Their animations are great. And lots of scenes in Naruto are fantastic! But you can see where they put their budget. Animes have a long history of struggling to stay afloat if their fanbase isn't huge and supports them 100%. Even then, creators don't usually have the money people think they do.
Money wise, Japan did it smart. They kept their quality low, and thus the people don't expect top quality stuff. Here in the west, the bar is set really high because it's like competition on who can produce the best animation in the shortest amount of time. We're also way more versed in 3D in the west. Japan hasn't delved too much into it, but they are realizing now how much money they can save by doing this.
Anime/Manga is to personal preference, just like comics/cartoons. I have seen amazing animes, read some beautifully drawn mangas, but there is a huge market of super crappy drawn stuff, because yeah, lots of people take advantage and try to get their foot in the door. Naruto's art SUCKED when it first started. And now look at it.
Same goes for the west.
Oh my god I didn't realize how much I rambled, haha. I'll put it in a spoiler tag...
TL;DR, anime/manga, cartoons/comics are all art. Art is not subjective. Art is defined. What you think art MEANS is subjective... but whether or not it's actually under the 'art' label isn't up to you.
Edit: I just realized how long ago this thread was up, haha. Sorry, but it was a really interesting subject, one I'm trained in.
Anime and manga are absolutely art forms, that's just a fact. People say they aren't as part of the trend of no one taking animation or graphic novels seriously, even though both of those things take a lot of time and talent to create. People can dislike anime and manga, but that doesn't change the fact that it's an art style. I think people are just tired of seeing it all the time, as it is very popular. It also seems like a lot of beginning or non-serious artists draw in the style of manga, so it has a bad reputation for being poorly drawn.
